|
Post by sorcerer on Jul 20, 2019 22:25:29 GMT -5
Lords, ladies, and other distinguished denizens of the swordsofreh:
Greetings! I have come here to determine how better to write swords and sorcery, and hope before I submit anything for your perusal that you will share your insights regarding his talent. Although he has on occasion been dismissed as a pulp author (by Lovecraft's biographer Joshi, among others) I think he was able to make an indelible mark on Western culture through his writing.
Of course the pulp aspect should be acknowledged, and this page-turning style is much of what makes him such a strong author. He had an intuitive knack for the kind of scene/sequel, conflict and setback rhythm that Jim Butcher used, but if anything to better effect, as his writing is evocative rather than specific. In just the same way that Lovecraft's work is effective because it suggests brooding cosmic horror, Howard's work is effective in the way that it evokes the mad rush of danger and heroism. I've never written romance, but when you look at romance authors they are rarely specific about sex scenes, because that would become clinical.
He also relies very heavily on sincere, dramatic expression. His characters seldom use everyday language, and rarely attempt to dissemble; in this regard they are utterly free of the middle class ("civilized") politeness of most people. This is sometimes awkwardly done, as in The Moon of Skulls when the Atlantean priest, having been locked in solitary confinement for years and tortured to the edge of death is finally fortunate enough to meet a friendly human soul and says...
"You who come through the ancient door," said the other in the latter dialect, "who are you? You are no savage—at first I thought you one of the Old Race, but now I see you are not as they. Whence come you?"
...Rather than something more believable like "Aaaah don't hurt me" or "My arms, my arms," or "Oh by the Gods, can it be true? Have you come to save me?" But we don't read Howard for realism; we read for escapism, and as long as the events are plausible, it's more important that they engender excitement. Bold speech makes Howard's conversations compelling.
But such strong speech moves beyond mere pulp appeal, as it helps to promote his views about heroism, barbarism, and decadence. In ordinary pulp there are seldom interesting messages, and much of Howard's writing lacks any interesting literary qualities. But at its best, Howard's writing is a treasure trove:
Zamora's religion, like all things of a civilized, long-settled people, was intricate and complex, and had lost most of the pristine essence in a maze of formulas and rituals. He had squatted for hours in the courtyard of the philosophers, listening to the arguments of theologians and teachers, and come away in a haze of bewilderment, sure of only one thing, and that, that they were all touched in the head.
His gods were simple and understandable; Crom was their chief, and he lived on a great mountain, whence he sent forth dooms and death. It was useless to call on Crom, because he was a gloomy, savage god, and he hated weaklings. But he gave a man courage at birth, and the will and might to kill his enemies, which, in the Cimmerian's mind, was all any god should be expected to do.
Here in Tower of the Elephant, Howard not only neatly and succinctly introduces the Cimmerian's background and juxtaposes it to the current surroundings, but invites the reader to compare the babble of Zamoran intellectuals with modern religious, political, scientific, or philosophical thinkers in any age who have become divorced from reality.
Lastly, and perhaps most crucially, the scale of Howard's stories extends beyond the epic and into the cosmic, as he tells of empires rising and falling, peoples evolving and sinking into savagery, gods and wars and time and space extending far beyond the heroism of the moment. Tower of the Elephant does not end with a battle, but with cosmic revelation. Hour of the Dragon pits the Hyborean Age against a resurgent Age of Acheron. And reading The Hyborean Age it's clear that everything is made consistent with a world itself surging and churning with conflict.
I am still not certain how to use these lessons in my own writing, and I've probably missed many other lessons besides. And so I bid you please to aid me - What have you learned about writing from reading Robert Howard?
|
|
|
Post by themirrorthief on Jul 20, 2019 23:42:05 GMT -5
Howard had a gift...he could make words live...not totally sure how he did it...the second chapter of Red Nails was his high point IMO...just incredibly alive prose
|
|
|
Post by sorcerer on Jul 21, 2019 13:11:54 GMT -5
At your suggestion, I've reread chapter 2 of Red Nails. There is nothing remarkable in such prose. Most is quite matter-of-fact, neither as terse nor as varied in rhythm as it could be. For instance, right away we find clumsy phrases like She frowned with perplexity; "She frowned" is tighter, and we read her perplexity from her many questions, which themselves also show unnecessary wordiness that enhances the dull, repetitive cadence: "But who built it? Who dwelt here? Where did they go? Why did they abandon it?" Later see more problems, such as an over-reliance on weak verbs "had" and "was:" It was a faint noise that brought her out of her reflections. She was on her feet with her sword in her hand before she realized what had disturbed her. Conan had not returned, and she knew it was not he that she had heard.Amidst this unremarkable writing we have a few more evocative sentences sprinkled throughout: A silence as absolute as that of the forest brooded over the walls and minarets. Beneath their feet the dully lurid floor smoldered with changing hues and colors of flame. It was like treading the floors of Hell with evil stars blinking overhead. ...her keen blade lashed down and a fierce exultation swept her as she felt the edge cleave solid flesh and mortal bone.These sentences are better, but none of them are remarkable in the slightest. It's not Howard's words, it's his characters and his story - the pacing, the evocation of far times and places with Conan's knowledge of kozaks, pirates, and kings, the ambiguity of madness and the supernatural, the thrill of danger and excitement. That is how his stories live.
|
|
|
Post by themirrorthief on Jul 22, 2019 0:07:57 GMT -5
its pure dope dude...sorry if you are word deaf, you are not alone
|
|
|
Post by ChrisLAdams on Jul 22, 2019 9:34:26 GMT -5
Many of the accusations you bring against REH above -- the "weak" verbs, or what you referred to as "unnecessary wordiness" when Howard added "in perplexity" after "she frowned", are found in the works of a great many of the pulp greats. There are other examples that you didn't touch on--for instance, the way they say, "Suddenly", all the time to indicate the explosive launching of a piece of action. Oh, or one of ERB's favorites: beginning a sentence with, "And so it was..." I love that one. And I use it. To your point, by today's standards, many of their works would be rejected if judged by today's grammatical standards--by those who don't know any better, that is.
In reading other pulp era authors I find myself sometimes thinking how I might have worded something differently; but then, the writings of the greats are famous and eternal, where mine will remain largely unknown in the darkness of eternal obscurity, read only by the scribes of Aldebaran, and then only on the eve of the purple moon which only occurs once a millennium... Hmmm. That gives one pause.
In suggesting that one could tell just as good of stories--but written by today's standards--you're probably not wrong. Sure, and Butcher is a great example. I enjoy Butcher.
But there will be always be a place for the time-capsule of phrasings crafted by guys like Robert E. Howard. By the way, there are many reasons to frown--saddness, disappointment, perplexity--and you have to remember that Show Don't Tell, although it certainly existed in Howard's time, wasn't pushed like it is today. I struggle with this myself; it's so easy to get caught up in one's prose and then realize, a little too late, that fifty words of description of how angry your character is might have been better summarized with one explosive curse word.
Happy writing!
|
|
|
Post by Char-Vell on Jul 22, 2019 12:05:20 GMT -5
Many of the accusations you bring against REH above -- the "weak" verbs, or what you referred to as "unnecessary wordiness" when Howard added "in perplexity" after "she frowned", are found in the works of a great many of the pulp greats. There are other examples that you didn't touch on--for instance, the way they say, "Suddenly", all the time to indicate the explosive launching of a piece of action. Oh, or one of ERB's favorites: beginning a sentence with, "And so it was..." I love that one. And I use it. To your point, by today's standards, many of their works would be rejected if judged by today's grammatical standards--by those who don't know any better, that is. In reading other pulp era authors I find myself sometimes thinking how I might have worded something differently; but then, the writings of the greats are famous and eternal, where mine will remain largely unknown in the darkness of eternal obscurity, read only by the scribes of Aldebaran, and then only on the eve of the purple moon which only occurs once a millennium... Hmmm. That gives one pause. In suggesting that one could tell just as good of stories--but written by today's standards--you're probably not wrong. Sure, and Butcher is a great example. I enjoy Butcher. But there will be always be a place for the time-capsule of phrasings crafted by guys like Robert E. Howard. By the way, there are many reasons to frown--saddness, disappointment, perplexity--and you have to remember that Show Don't Tell, although it certainly existed in Howard's time, wasn't pushed like it is today. I struggle with this myself; it's so easy to get caught up in one's prose and then realize, a little too late, that fifty words of description of how angry your character is might have been better summarized with one explosive curse word. Happy writing! Well stated! I bared my teeth in a rictus of satisfied amusement as I scrutinized your post.
|
|
|
Post by sorcerer on Jul 22, 2019 12:09:24 GMT -5
In suggesting that one could tell just as good of stories--but written by today's standards--you're probably not wrong. This is something like what I'm getting at. Robert Howard is a brilliant writer, but he doesn't exist on a plane above ordinary mortals, and not everything he did was perfect. By carefully considering what he did well, a good writer can learn much.
It's good to know you've read Butcher. I don't think Butcher is anywhere near as good as Howard, but it isn't a question of word choice (or at least, not usually). Butcher writes book length mysteries, so the pacing is slower, his plots are much more convoluted, and the cast of characters to keep track of is much higher. I've spent a great deal of time analyzing Butcher, and I even joined a Butcher forum some years ago. But while Butcher has useful lessons, I think they're much more basic. My sense is that, if you're starting out and want to appeal to a broad audience, Butcher is someone to read carefully.
It might be possible to start out at Conan level, but I've long doubted it - and reading Solomon Kane for the first time I've been gratified to see that Howard had a great deal to learn before writing Conan.
In fact, thinking about it, the Solomon Kane stories seem like a wiser place to go to learn Howard's appeal, because they're much clumsier, but they still work. The story I referenced earlier, Moon of Skulls, comes to mind again, because the dialogue with the young damsel (Marylin) is all long paragraphs of superfluous exposition. This exposition comes even at the end, after the climax, when the reader can easily infer everyone lives happily ever after, dragging the conclusion uselessly. It's terrible, and he doesn't do that again in Conan. But the story still works around these shortcomings, because it has desperate decisions in a race against time, depraved villains, and exciting twists and turns.
One twist sticks out: The Atlantean tells Kane of a passage leading behind the Skull of Nakura, but mentions, dying, two stairs along the way. If it had been an Edgar Rice Burroughs story, Kull would have taken the correct stair, found the compartment behind the skull, pretended to be the voice of Nakura, and commanded the tribesmen to do his bidding. But this is Howard, so Kane takes the wrong stair, and ends up at the other side of the chamber, too late to go back. Only by a sudden stroke of luck does he find himself behind the chieftain who took his pistol, and this gives him the edge he needs.
A long time ago, I read something Howard wrote, that some people can tell a good story, and others can't. (I'd be grateful if anyone could supply the exact quote.) Though it wasn't obvious to me at the start of this thread, I think it's very clear that Howard worked because his stories were worth writing about. It's easy to focus on verbiage, and verbiage does matter, along with the other things I noted in my first post. But I think most of all, what makes Howard shine is basic plot, and character - creating characters with both depth and memorable extremes, engaged in stories that lead the reader urgently forward by building tension through high stakes. I think unless a story sounds good as a bare script, it's very hard to make it shine through clever writing alone (though Lovecraft proved even this can work with stories like Night Ocean).
Thanks for your comments; although I didn't always agree, you both helped me to understand this.
|
|
|
Post by ChrisLAdams on Jul 22, 2019 13:02:37 GMT -5
It's easy to focus on verbiage... But I think most of all, what makes Howard shine is basic plot, and character - creating characters with both depth and memorable extremes, engaged in stories that lead the reader urgently forward by building tension through high stakes. I think unless a story sounds good as a bare script, it's very hard to make it shine through clever writing alone ... I think these excerpts of yours summarize Howard's writings perfectly. For one, not every single sentence is going to ring forth like this one (an example of what you called "dramatic expression"): That's just fabulous, and one my favorite REH quotes. But some sentences simply state, in clear, basic terms, certain need-to-know things to describe the setting or plot elements. Take this example: That's not anything most people couldn't write decently; it's simple description that does a sound job of setting the stage for what's to come. Now Kronk might have said it with less words: "Dilapidated. Abandoned. Gotchya." What Howard's detractors might find difficult to get around, if they don't like his prose style, is his story telling. It's just fabulous; i'ts explosive and creative. If that's what you're seeking, you need seek no further because you can't find much better. Take this simple theme, for example. Conan sneaks into Pict territory and is nearly given him up for lost. I love how Howard describes the surprise of Vallanus upon Conan's return... Deceptively simple. Most might fall back on, "The Pict ain't been born that can whoop me," or some such. I like Howard's method far better.
|
|
|
Post by scottoden on Jul 22, 2019 13:52:22 GMT -5
IMO, and take this with a grain of salt: to write like REH, you first needs must immerse yourself in the words of the writers who inspired him. For he was a product of his voracious reading habits. It's more than simply aping his sentence structure and his vocabulary. You have to feel it. You have to feel the edge of despair creeping up on you; you have to know in your dreams what the crumbling of an empire looks like, and what it is to stand and fight when it won't mean a damn thing in the end.
Howard's reading habits and his personality mean far more than his manner of writing. You need something of the Northern Thing about you to write like him -- death is inevitable, the afterlife is cold and grim ... unless you catch the Gods' eyes by going out in a blazing pyre of Glory. REH might have been a Christian in name, but he was Pagan to his very soul. You can see it, in the words; you can see his affinity for heathens and barbarians of every stripe. He's a skald, a poet of heroes. He's a viking in his soul.
Do you have to be all these things to write like REH? No. You're not going to write like him. He was the last of a singular breed. I'm probably the last person who needs to tell you to just write like yourself (I try VERY hard to approximate REH's prose style), but pull in what you love about REH and write in your own style. No one will unseat the master, but you might find yourself writing the kinds of stories the master would have loved to read ...
|
|
|
Post by buxom9sorceress on Jul 22, 2019 15:05:10 GMT -5
IMO, and take this with a grain of salt: to write like REH, you first needs must immerse yourself in the words of the writers who inspired him. For he was a product of his voracious reading habits. It's more than simply aping his sentence structure and his vocabulary. You have to feel it. You have to feel the edge of despair creeping up on you; you have to know in your dreams what the crumbling of an empire looks like, and what it is to stand and fight when it won't mean a damn thing in the end. Howard's reading habits and his personality mean far more than his manner of writing. You need something of the Northern Thing about you to write like him -- death is inevitable, the afterlife is cold and grim ... unless you catch the Gods' eyes by going out in a blazing pyre of Glory. REH might have been a Christian in name, but he was Pagan to his very soul. You can see it, in the words; you can see his affinity for heathens and barbarians of every stripe. He's a skald, a poet of heroes. He's a viking in his soul. Do you have to be all these things to write like REH? No. You're not going to write like him. He was the last of a singular breed. I'm probably the last person who needs to tell you to just write like yourself (I try VERY hard to approximate REH's prose style), but pull in what you love about REH and write in your own style. No one will unseat the master, but you might find yourself writing the kinds of stories the master would have loved to read ... Great insights Scott. and thanks to all other posters in here, too. very good stuff.
|
|
|
Post by buxom9sorceress on Jul 22, 2019 15:52:42 GMT -5
The best way to practice is to write lots of short fan fiction tales. [here on these forums ] write about the characters you know best. never mind about style. dont try to ape any particular style. if you write exciting entertaining scenes [ from your own head ] your own style will develop and show. feedback from us fans will help you decide how to proceed? later, when you feel ready - launch your own new character, and test it out on us? this method of quick keen friendly feedback will let you experiment with more of your own different characters. and give you more confidence. >>[ see how Charvell developed his great Sigyn [warrioress] character thru several new tales on these fan forums [ Charvell has been a great fave and inspiration to me. and a fine example to all learning writers. ] Practice practice and more feedback is the key. So get on with it.
|
|
|
Post by Von K on Jul 22, 2019 19:03:43 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum sorcerer.
I'm not going to harangue you for critiquing REH's prose in Red Nail's.
Even Shakespeare got criticized for his word use by Ben Jonson no less: "It hath been said of Shakespeare that he never blotted out word. My answer still hath been - would he had blotted a thousand." The same Ben Jonson who wrote an awesome eulogy of Shakespeare in verse ("He was not of an age but for all time").
Imho REH is basically a genius in his field who died young, like Christopher Marlowe. Such a wealth of talent left unexplored.
Personally I think HP Lovecraft came closest to answering the question at the top of this thread when he said the secret to the success of REH's yarns is that "he himself is in every one of them."
Studying a writer like REH at a technical level is always fruitful, but sometime they work with such instinctive economy that one can pick up on the one or two more obvious things they do and miss out on the two or three other subtle things that passed beneath the awareness. I can go back to an REH yarn a year or two later and spot things I simply didn't spot or know to look for before. And then wonder how much more I have still missed.
There's no harm in trying to emulate a favorite writer during the learning process. "Emulation is good practice," as Michael Moorcock once said, who himself owed much to ERB, Meredith, Peake and many others, even borrowing the structure of one of Conrad's novels to base The Ice Schooner on. I'm pretty sure that most writers do it in the early phases. Yes even REH who, when it came to the weird and cosmic horror elements emulated aspects of London, Machen, Poe and HP Lovecraft until up to about 1932 when he had imbibed all he needed and then began to move away from their influence.
But, as Ray Bradbury once said about our literary heroes: "we may love them, but we can't be them."
Jim Butcher btw described the nine year journey he took learning to be a published writer as akin to passing through the fifth and sixth circles of hell, but that it was still ultimately worth it. He wrote six unpublishable epic fantasy novels in third person before finally deciding to follow his writing teacher's advice and do it her way. She advised him to switch genres to Urban Fantasy and viewpoint to first person. The next book he wrote was Storm Front the first of the Dresden Files.
|
|
|
Post by sorcerer on Jul 22, 2019 19:37:15 GMT -5
Actually, I suspect I am different from the sort of person most of you regularly encounter. I don't want to write like Howard any more than I want to write like Jim Butcher. I want to write broadly and well.
To this end, I started a writer's group many years ago. Though it was initially difficult to attract members, after a year I had enough people in the group that we had to split into subgroups every week, and I had learned what I needed. I now have something like 5 complete novels and around 20 shorter works.
I write purely for myself, I don't publish, and although I still help other people I know with their work, I don't share my own writing anymore. I might offer a page or two if it makes buxom9sorceress happy, because I've read some of her posts and I like her, but I have no intention of posting longer work.
However, what I recently noticed is that, rereading one of my novels, it drags. It isn't sword and sorcery, but it does follow the last mission of an elite band of soldiers, and the passionate pacing that runs through Howard's novels is probably the missing element. Taking tools from other authors often works well; one of Lovecraft's very best stories was Shadow Over Innsmouth, and it owes much of its success to Howard's influence, which came in the form of a chase scene. If Lovecraft could find something of use in Howard, I can as well.
(Plus it's fun rereading his stories after all these years.)
|
|
|
Post by Char-Vell on Jul 23, 2019 7:59:57 GMT -5
>>[ see how Charvell developed his great Sigyn [warrioress] character thru several new tales on these fan forums [ Charvell has been a great fave and inspiration to me. and a fine example to all learning writers. ] I'm thrilled that you enjoyed Sigyn so much, Bux. Thank you.
Sigyn grew out of a good natured argument I had with someone as to whether Red-Sonja was just a female Conan, along with some drawings I did of quasi-Nordic warrior ladies. I consciously tried channeling Howard and Clark Ashton Smith, with a little Roy Thomas thrown in. It was supposed to be a one-off exercise but I got carried away.
Others have already addressed the "secret" to Howard success. I would add that being on the scene while pups where a thing added to his success.
I speculate as to what he would have done had he not took his own life. I figure he would have moved on to westerns/historicals and been another Louis L'amour, Zane Gray, or Herman Wouk type author.
|
|
|
Post by themirrorthief on Jul 23, 2019 15:30:44 GMT -5
I write to keep my vast hordes of fans happy...anyhow, that's my story
|
|