The Suicide of REH

[sorcerer]

Ladies, gentlemen, and distinguished others,

Over the past several weeks you've gotten to know me well enough to understand I do not come here as a troll specifically to offend your sensibilities. Yet, though I have thus far avoided it, seldom have I not wondered why it is that you lionize this man so unreservedly. I do enjoy Robert Howard's stories, not only on their own, but because they have an energy and simplicity that my own writing has often lacked; he writes things that are, to me, difficult to write.

Yet though I may respect him as a writer, there seems little for me to respect as a person, beyond his understanding of anthropology and friendship with Lovecraft. So far as I can determine, he was a moody, superstitious fellow with little philosophical or political development beyond raw instinct. If he were more like the characters in his stories it would be much easier for me to respect him, but the person he was and the person he wished to be seem to be two very different things. Robert Howard liked to put up a brave front and write stories about powerful men, but in reality he was a very little man who shot himself over the passing of his mother, leaving father and friends behind.

[kemp]

REH was not a little man, about 6 ft tall actually. A love for adventure, boxing, history, writing and fencing, I like to think that he would have gotten along well with a few here on this forum. 

He was a complex individual who probably liked to think that he had some of the attributes of his heroes, and perhaps at tiimes he did.  I am not going to make excuses for his suicide as that kind of action is diametrically opposed to my view of things, but I will not let his final spiral into that depression derail from his literary achievements.

It is also another reason I never take too much interest in the personal lives of actors, writers and artists whose works and creations I admire. 

[charleshelm]

Howard was active in strength and boxing and other activities. Judging him on how he reacted to his private demons without living his life is too simplistic. If you have not read it, I recommend Mark Finn's Blood and Thunder biography. Many people struggle with depression. Judging them does not help them and fails to acknowledge the real issue which can include chemical imbalances in the brain.

[deepermagic]

I'm trying to get at the crux here. Are you wondering why we lionize a person who committed suicide?

It's hard for me to boil down REH to simply his suicide. That didn't define him. It was tragic and horrible, and to me suicide is always a mystery because I can't get my mind to see it that as an option. Though it is a part of his story, it's not the whole part (not a small part either). We, or I certainly, don't lionize him because of his suicide, but in spite of his suicide. There's always a reason to admire a man who has created the kind of art and stories that REH did and that leads to looking at his life. It's very natural.

I find many of his views, especially about modernism, inspirational, and a few I disagree with, but on the whole, he's a writer worthy of being admired, both for his style and the content. And his life was pretty interesting considering how homebound he was.

[zarono]

 Because he entertained us, and having the ability to entertain gives a certain status among those being entertained. I think it's Howard's work that is being lionized and not necessarily the man himself, if Howard had never written a story it's doubtful anyone would remember him. That said REH's life story is intriguing, so intriguing a movie was based on it with some decent level star power (Vincent D'Onofrio and Renee Zellweger in "The Whole Wide World").
Perhaps you should ask yourself if the real question you want answered is why his work is lionized despite whatever faults (technical or otherwise) you might personally perceive in it? My answer is the same; the stories are entertaining, and for people who enjoy it the entertainment value greatly outweighs the faults of the work or the author.

[Von K]

He suffered from bleak moods for most of his adult life. I’m just grateful he was able to keep on slugging for as long as he did. That he eventually lost the battle doesn’t make his internal struggle any less heroic.

You don't sound like someone who knows very much about Robert E Howard sorcerer. There's plenty of info even in this sub fora to gainsay your opinion which you could take a look through if you have time.

Here's one you could take a look at:

In reality, Robert E. Howard was a gifted, enlightened, intellectually curious man, and his best writing is both regional and transcendent in the best senses of both terms. It shows poetic flair in its descriptions of the southwest, and is tinged with an implicit, and sometimes explicit, cosmic resonance.

Howard’s finest work reminds the reader of Faulkner’s adage that the past is never dead, it’s not even past. In many of his stories, characters must face the past, and learn about certain events in the tangled history of the American southwest, to make sense of what’s going on around them. Bold explorers, doomed expeditions, hidden riches or rumors thereof, and political and social conflicts of lost decades drive events in the present. Regional history, rich and fascinating as it is, often proves to be just a piece of the puzzle. The same intellectual curiosity that drives Howard to get to the truth of historical events pushes him to seek out a cosmic scheme in which men and women have to stand firm against powerful forces they barely comprehend.

bookandfilmglobe.com/creators/robert-e-howard-literary-artist-or-pulp-hack/

You can find more info here:

www.rehfoundation.org/a-short-biography/

And even more in Mark Finn’s Biography of REH: Blood and Thunder

[sorcerer]

Oct 4, 2019 9:48:16 GMT -5 deepermagic said:

I'm trying to get at the crux here. Are you wondering why we lionize a person who committed suicide?

The creator of Conan committed suicide over the death of his mother.

This is the sort of unmanly end critics might have imagined for their neurotic image of H. P. Lovecraft. The slender wrote about lonely people being frightened of monsters, so it is very commonly assumed - incorrectly - that Lovecraft was anxious and emotionally hypersensitive. But Lovecraft went down to stomach cancer, keeping a clinical diary of his symptoms as he slipped away.

Robert Howard is said to have put himself into his characters, and I agree that he did this, but in light of his actual biography - not just his suicide - it seems much more that he invented characters who were never afraid, always strong, and never succumbed to adversity as a means of wish fulfillment, the way people create Dungeons & Dragons characters with all 18s. Conan is bluff, impulsive, and unreflective, but seems likable in a way that his moody and sensitive creator was not.

___________________________

Zarano suggests:

Perhaps you should ask yourself if the real question you want answered is why his work is lionized despite whatever faults (technical or otherwise) you might personally perceive in it? My answer is the same; the stories are entertaining, and for people who enjoy it the entertainment value greatly outweighs the faults of the work or the author.

No, I understand why his work is lionized. I do think that many people here view his work without nuance because of their fondness for him, but for all the faults that run through his writing, he's one of my favorite authors. As I said in the beginning, I do respect Howard as a writer.

And honestly, I am not intending to ask a question at all; I am sharing an opinion that has hung in the back of my mind which I knew would not be particularly well received!

__________________________

Von K adds:

You don't sound like someone who knows very much about Robert E Howard sorcerer.

Well, I'd already read the first of the links you gave some time ago. And I've read several of his letters, and owned many of his books over the years, which frequently contained biographies in their forewords or afterwords. Even restricting what can be said of him to this forum paints the picture of a little man yearning to be big:

Bob kept on shadow boxing, telling himself that he didn't care what people thought of him. I knew he did care, very much, but was just too stubborn to admit it.

If Howard had admitted what he was, a sensitive writer who had trouble coping with the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, it would have been easier for me to sympathize with him. But instead he would argue unconvincingly with Lovecraft about how much he wished he'd have been born among the Germanic barbarians—that is, born into a society that scorned the written word. Lovecraft knew better:

[D]on't you realize that without that part of your personality—your imagination, perspective, etc.—you could not be yourself at all?

[scottoden]

The creator of Conan committed suicide over the death of his mother.

 Having been through nearly the same situation -- I served as caregiver to both my parents in the terminal stages of their respective diseases -- I sympathize and understand how Bob ended his life.  And I admire the hell out of him.  Not only did he provide end-stage care to his Mom (his Dad had a territory to care for), he managed to build an enduring career we're still talking about nearly a century later.  He invented an entire genre, sword and sorcery, and created the flagship character of that genre in Conan.  He read voraciously in a time and place where books were hard to come by; he did more than most writers who live to be twice and three times his age.  ALL while also taking care of his Mom, who progressed from just sick to terminally ill.

IMO, he suffered from what we now call Caregivers' Syndrome.  On top of whatever other demons might have plagued him, the lure to carry on taking care of his Mom beyond the mortal coil proved too great.  When she slipped into her coma, he went on ahead.  It's not rational.  It's not a sign of weakness.  It makes the most sense to the person in the moment.  I understand it.

I forgive Bob Howard his eccentricities, and I see the man behind them: a creator of dreams and wild imaginings who saved none for himself.  And that's why I put him in my own private Valhalla.  He fought a fight most of us will never have the opportunity to fight.  He might have lost to the demons, but the demons will forever remember the fight . . .

[charleshelm]

I'm not going to get drawn further into this...

[sorcerer]

Oct 4, 2019 19:11:27 GMT -5 scottoden said:

IMO, he suffered from what we now call Caregivers' Syndrome.  On top of whatever other demons might have plagued him, the lure to carry on taking care of his Mom beyond the mortal coil proved too great.  When she slipped into her coma, he went on ahead.  It's not rational.  It's not a sign of weakness.  It makes the most sense to the person in the moment.  I understand it.

Howard - the man - may very likely have suffered from caregiver's syndrome. Howard the man was very different from the Howard that emerges in his writing.

It may help to see why this is such a stark issue for me if I tell you something. I have quoted this passage of Howard's more than any passage from any other writer - counting online, quotes displayed on my office door, texts in an email, in conversation, or alone to myself:

His gods were simple and understandable; Crom was their chief, and he lived on a great mountain, whence he sent forth dooms and death. It was useless to call on Crom, because he was a gloomy, savage god, and he hated weaklings. But he gave a man courage at birth, and the will and might to kill his enemies, which, in the Cimmerian's mind, was all any god should be expected to do.

When we take this last from Tower of the Elephant alongside this from another of his masterpieces, Gods of the North, a message emerges:

...she chanted in maddening mockery. "Lie down and die in the snow with the other fools, Conan of the black hair. You can not follow where I would lead."

With an oath the Cimmerian heaved himself up on his feet...

And we see this message even more clearly in A Witch Shall Be Born:

Conan's head lunged forward on his mighty neck muscles, and his teeth, snapping like those of a wolf, locked on the bare, wattled neck. Instantly the vulture exploded into squawking, flapping hysteria. Its thrashing wings blinded the man, and its talons ripped his chest. But grimly he hung on, the muscles starting out in lumps on his jaws. And the scavenger's neckbones crunched between those powerful teeth. With a spasmodic flutter the bird hung limp. Conan let go, spat blood from his mouth. The other vultures, terrified by the fate of their companion, were in full flight to a distant tree, where they perched like black demons in conclave.

Ferocious triumph surged through Conan's numbed brain. Life beat strongly and savagely through his veins. He could still deal death; he still lived. Every twinge of sensation, even of agony, was a negation of death.

Robert Howard the writer has given us a message: Do not give up, no matter the difficulties you face, no matter the pain you endure. Have strength, have courage, and have life! It is the man who wrote this message that I honor and respect.

So when you say Howard's suicide was not a sign of weakness, I do not think you are being honest with yourself. He may have faced depression, or caregiver's syndrome; given the inspiration his mother offered him while she lived, he may even have lost his ability to write. Yes, absolutely his life had become grim!

But do we even need to ask what Conan would have done in his place?

[Deleted]

Oct 9, 2019 17:02:44 GMT -5 sorcerer said:

Oct 4, 2019 19:11:27 GMT -5 scottoden said:

IMO, he suffered from what we now call Caregivers' Syndrome.  On top of whatever other demons might have plagued him, the lure to carry on taking care of his Mom beyond the mortal coil proved too great.  When she slipped into her coma, he went on ahead.  It's not rational.  It's not a sign of weakness.  It makes the most sense to the person in the moment.  I understand it.

Howard - the man - may very likely have suffered from caregiver's syndrome. Howard the man was very different from the Howard that emerges in his writing.

It may help to see why this is such a stark issue for me if I tell you something. I have quoted this passage of Howard's more than any passage from any other writer - counting online, quotes displayed on my office door, texts in an email, in conversation, or alone to myself:

His gods were simple and understandable; Crom was their chief, and he lived on a great mountain, whence he sent forth dooms and death. It was useless to call on Crom, because he was a gloomy, savage god, and he hated weaklings. But he gave a man courage at birth, and the will and might to kill his enemies, which, in the Cimmerian's mind, was all any god should be expected to do.

When we take this last from Tower of the Elephant alongside this from another of his masterpieces, Gods of the North, a message emerges:

...she chanted in maddening mockery. "Lie down and die in the snow with the other fools, Conan of the black hair. You can not follow where I would lead."

With an oath the Cimmerian heaved himself up on his feet...

And we see this message even more clearly in A Witch Shall Be Born:

Conan's head lunged forward on his mighty neck muscles, and his teeth, snapping like those of a wolf, locked on the bare, wattled neck. Instantly the vulture exploded into squawking, flapping hysteria. Its thrashing wings blinded the man, and its talons ripped his chest. But grimly he hung on, the muscles starting out in lumps on his jaws. And the scavenger's neckbones crunched between those powerful teeth. With a spasmodic flutter the bird hung limp. Conan let go, spat blood from his mouth. The other vultures, terrified by the fate of their companion, were in full flight to a distant tree, where they perched like black demons in conclave.

Ferocious triumph surged through Conan's numbed brain. Life beat strongly and savagely through his veins. He could still deal death; he still lived. Every twinge of sensation, even of agony, was a negation of death.

Robert Howard the writer has given us a message: Do not give up, no matter the difficulties you face, no matter the pain you endure. Have strength, have courage, and have life! It is the man who wrote this message that I honor and respect.

So when you say Howard's suicide was not a sign of weakness, I do not think you are being honest with yourself. He may have faced depression, or caregiver's syndrome; given the inspiration his mother offered him while she lived, he may even have lost his ability to write. Yes, absolutely his life had become grim!

But do we even need to ask what Conan would have done in his place?

Robert E. Howard did not think he was Conan.

The reason (or reasons) for his suicide is obviously more complex than your conclusions so far.

[Char-Vell]

I gathered that Howard had expressed suicidal ideas for quite awhile beforehand, with some speculating that with his mother's death, his obligation to care for her was finished, freeing him to end his life.

sorcerer, what is your endgame here?

From this and other posts of yours, it would seem you would like us all to admit "Gee, Howard wasn't all that great."

Howard was a writer of tales that I personally enjoy and find deeper meaning in. his suicide does not change that. Rightly or wrongly, I hold his works in high esteem.

A friend of mine committed suicide a few years ago.

He was admittedly a flawed individual. (Who among us is not?)

What he did, while it may color my recollections of him, does not cheapen what he achieved in his life, or make me value our friendship less. I feel similarly about REH, though in a more removed way.

[deepermagic]

Oct 9, 2019 17:02:44 GMT -5 sorcerer said:

So when you say Howard's suicide was not a sign of weakness, I do not think you are being honest with yourself. He may have faced depression, or caregiver's syndrome; given the inspiration his mother offered him while she lived, he may even have lost his ability to write. Yes, absolutely his life had become grim!

But do we even need to ask what Conan would have done in his place?

This is such a weird take.

First, regardless of whether one thinks his suicide was a weakness (I do, but I find I would have to qualify/contextualize what I mean by weakness...which may not jive with someone else's take) I don't have any idea why that would disqualify him from being admired for the work he did. 

Asking what Conan would have done in his place is weird. It's like asking why John Lennon didn't go tiger hunting like Bungalow Bill and then condemning him for it. And then condemning his fans for praising the art and artist in spite of him not actually tiger hunting. 

One can still praise an artist for his work even in the face of the artist's flaws. In fact, an argument could be made that an artist is even more deserving of praise and admiration because of what they produced in spite of their flaw! The fact that Howard--a man who struggled with and ultimately succumbed to suicide--was able to write all of those amazing, inspiring, characters, and stories and was able to put forward, with stark clarity, many examples of the striving for life....well, that makes his artistic accomplishment all the more worthy of admiration, even if it makes his suicide that much more tragic.

[sorcerer]

Oct 10, 2019 8:34:00 GMT -5 Char-Vell said:

sorcerer, what is your endgame here?

From this and other posts of yours, it would seem you would like us all to admit "Gee, Howard wasn't all that great."

I can tell that you all continue to think this, and it's disappointing. I wouldn't have made such an earnest study of his techniques if I didn't think Howard the writer was great. I've written this already, and it shouldn't require any reiteration. And while I had no endgame in making this thread, I was hoping to see that this board was ready to tolerate what I actually thought and felt without a thick filter, and I can see that the answer is unfortunately "no."

Nevertheless, I've sincerely enjoyed my time here, not only because it's been very useful, but because I've developed a real fondness for all of you. Unfortunately every time I've wanted to communicate things I learned studying Howard, I could sense I was brushing up against sensitivities that I simply don't share. In many cases to avoid offense this meant I've had to tiptoe (some of this reached levels that in retrospect were hilarious, although those were mostly in a thread that's now deleted), or else resulted in a kind of careful speaking out of the side of my mouth that I've done here.

It's this last way of speaking sideways which - though intended to be a gentle way of expressing something you would all find stark - may be why hun and deepermagic think my take on Howard's suicide is strange. If you really wonder what I meant by my previous question about what Conan would do, that was an attempt to press the comparison between the values that emerge from Howard's Conan (and other) stories, and Howard's character and behavior. Although I'm still circling the issue, I'll make one last attempt by analogy:

We may not care particularly if a man cheats on his wife. But when a renowned preacher whose sermons on monogamy elevate and inspire us is revealed to have several mistresses, our reaction will understandably be different. We may not stop caring about his sermons, but our sense of him as a person will probably change. Likewise our attitude towards members of his flock who reinterpret, explain away, or try to claim the issue of his mistresses is "complex" might very well be tinged with a certain wry humor!

I'll conclude by thanking you all for broadening my appreciation of Howard and his writing, particularly ChrisLAdams and Von K who took a great deal of time publicly and in private messages to point out things I wasn't aware of before. I may well return someday.

Until then, farewell!

[jakmon]

Oct 3, 2019 16:08:52 GMT -5 sorcerer said:

... in reality he was a very little man who shot himself over the passing of his mother, leaving father and friends behind.

Passing judgement like this is the height of arrogance. Humans are complex and we all have strengths and weaknesses. If you've never wrestled with depression, the good days are probably on par with an average day for most people, and the bad ones are beyond bleak.