Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 29, 2016 12:26:42 GMT -5
That's right! We all know what berserkes are! However, this widely famous (or infamous) subgroup of warriors in history have never been thoroughly explained. All the better base for fruitful speculation.
This topic came up when I recently red an article in a magazine, concerning the usage of drugs in war. Berserkers were mentioned as the very first examples of such happening.
"Theories about what caused berserker behaviour include ingestion of materials with psychoactive properties, psychological processes, and medical conditions."
All of them ofcourse a possibility, but I think I sway a little more towards the theory about drugs. In the way I understand the effects of such things (without being an user myself) the unconscious state in which the berserkers seemed to drive themselves to - and especially the feebleness that followed, seem to support the theory.
"This fury, which was called berserkergang, occurred not only in the heat of battle, but also during laborious work. Men who were thus seized performed things which otherwise seemed impossible for human power. This condition is said to have begun with shivering, chattering of the teeth, and chill in the body, and then the face swelled and changed its color. With this was connected a great hot-headedness, which at last gave over into a great rage, under which they howled as wild animals, bit the edge of their shields, and cut down everything they met without discriminating between friend or foe. When this condition ceased, a great dulling of the mind and feeble- ness followed, which could last for one or several days" - Constantinus VII
However, Constantinus, or anyone else, doesn't seem to have explained how this drug was taken. Or did they...? Let's read on a little...
Haraldskvæði I'll ask of the berserks, you tasters of blood, Those intrepid heroes, how are they treated, Those who wade out into battle? Wolf-skinned they are called. In battle They bear bloody shields.
Ynglinga saga: "His (Odin's) men rushed forwards without armour, were as mad as dogs or wolves, bit their shields, and were strong as bears or wild oxen, and killed people at a blow, but neither fire nor iron told upon them. This was called Berserkergang."
What do all these descriptions have in common? Well, we all know the stereotype - the animal skins, often a spear, but the shield seems to often be forgotten. And yet, biting of the shield seemed to be a way recognizing a berserker in that part of history.
It is only a chess-piece from the 12th century, but I have seen other carvings with the same charasteristical behavior visualized. The biting of the shield definitely noted and mentioned as a link to berserk behavior. The question is, di they bite their shields while fighting -or just before it?
In my mind, that may be one way to get those precious drugs in your system. Drug-infused shields - why not?
That thought reminded me of story where speculations for the origin of berserking - The story of Achilles. This is not my own idea, there is some speculaton out there, that Achilles may have been the first Berserker. And he had one magnificent shield!
Why would an invincible man need shield for?
I don't know, but achieving of the shield seems to play some significance in the story.
"After receiving the news of the death of Patroclus from Antilochus, the son of Nestor, Achilles grieves over his beloved companion's death. His mother Thetis comes to comfort the distraught Achilles. She persuades Hephaestus to make new armor for him, in place of the armor that Patroclus had been wearing which was taken by Hector. The new armor includes the Shield of Achilles, described in great detail in the poem. Enraged over the death of Patroclus, Achilles ends his refusal to fight and takes the field killing many men in his rage but always seeking out Hector. Achilles even engages in battle with the river god Scamander who becomes angry that Achilles is choking his waters with all the men he has killed. The god tries to drown Achilles but is stopped by Hera and Hephaestus. Zeus himself takes note of Achilles' rage and sends the gods to restrain him so that he will not go on to sack Troy itself before the time allotted for its destruction, seeming to show that the unhindered rage of Achilles can defy fate itself."
From wikipedia. I’d like to challenge those who have red the actual, original tale to share their views and speculations.
|
|
|
Post by deuce on Mar 1, 2016 15:53:23 GMT -5
That's right! We all know what berserkes are! However, this widely famous (or infamous) subgroup of warriors in history have never been thoroughly explained. All the better base for fruitful speculation.
This topic came up when I recently red an article in a magazine, concerning the usage of drugs in war. Berserkers were mentioned as the very first examples of such happening.
"Theories about what caused berserker behaviour include ingestion of materials with psychoactive properties, psychological processes, and medical conditions."
(...)
I don't know, but achieving of the shield seems to play some significance in the story.
"After receiving the news of the death of Patroclus from Antilochus, the son of Nestor, Achilles grieves over his beloved companion's death. His mother Thetis comes to comfort the distraught Achilles. She persuades Hephaestus to make new armor for him, in place of the armor that Patroclus had been wearing which was taken by Hector. The new armor includes the Shield of Achilles, described in great detail in the poem. Enraged over the death of Patroclus, Achilles ends his refusal to fight and takes the field killing many men in his rage but always seeking out Hector. Achilles even engages in battle with the river god Scamander who becomes angry that Achilles is choking his waters with all the men he has killed. The god tries to drown Achilles but is stopped by Hera and Hephaestus. Zeus himself takes note of Achilles' rage and sends the gods to restrain him so that he will not go on to sack Troy itself before the time allotted for its destruction, seeming to show that the unhindered rage of Achilles can defy fate itself."
From wikipedia. I’d like to challenge those who have red the actual, original tale to share their views and speculations.
Hey Veenala! A great topic. I always meant to start a thread on this. I don't have a lot of time to go into detailed discussion at the moment. "Going berserk" seems to stretch back to the beginnings of Indo-European culture. The "drug" explanation doesn't seem plausible to me. What psychoactive drug was available to berserkers in India, Greece, Scandinavia and Ireland? Nothing that I know of. Here are a couple of good sources demonstrating the prevalence of berserking across Indo-European cultures: books.google.com/books?id=gsTW-RedBx8C&pg=PA155&lpg=PA155&dq=berserk+indo-european&source=bl&ots=GAAW-gxZ4p&sig=8dunqgfG2Xe1AHyMKRDDmd2Vc2o&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj_65jG3Z3LAhXpvYMKHWZsAR0Q6AEIPDAG#v=onepage&q=berserk%20indo-european&f=falsebooks.google.com/books?id=QhuVByLAy9oC&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65&dq=berserk+indo-european&source=bl&ots=j9cM0RdTMb&sig=-wYjkj3m2VPO4dD3seXTXoh7P3k&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjLycS92Z3LAhUHsIMKHV7PDxkQ6AEIJTAB#v=onepage&q=berserk%20indo-european&f=false
|
|
|
Post by thatericn on Mar 1, 2016 18:49:46 GMT -5
"The tasters of blood"?
A frenzied chomp on the edge of a shield might well cause some dental issues… might that be an element of berserker ritual? Bloodying one's own mouth in preparation for battle?
Wondering...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2016 3:43:05 GMT -5
You make a good point with your doubt about the availability of certain drugs on a widers scale. We’d have to ask a biologist or an actual herbalist who may be able to suggest possibilities. Some pop into mind, like Hyoscyamus niger. Just touching it by accident has been said to make a man throw away his clothes and run wild and, and forget everything about it. – one possibility to going werewolf, perhaps? I cannot say that Hyoscyamus niger was IT for going berserk, but we can take it for an example of a widely-known and used plant with similar effects. Even harder it is to figure out plants and herbs that were available BACK THEN. After all, many species have gone extinct due to cultivation of the best land along the years.
The way such ancient drugs were used also has to be kept open. Much has been forgotten. For example – the shamans of Lapland drank reindeer piss. “Why?” –asked the historians. Only very recently it popped out that the shamans fed poisonous mushrooms to the reindeer, and the poison was “cleaned off” in the animal’s system, leaving the drug in it’s optimal form in the piss. Very simple – we just didn’t get it.
The case is the same about many mysteries of the past, I imagine, and who knows – just a thought again – if the bloodied shields of the berserkers served the same purpose as reindeer piss did to the shaman? Perhaps the drug got it’s best form, when it got to the blood of an animal? Just a wild thought again.
All that being said... I don't really like to go as far as Indo-Europe, when talking about Berserkers. Fighting in rage and in adrenaline rush is something everyone knows to do to their own caliber, but actual Berserkers were few only. When I speak of them, I think of the Norse-Germanic subgroup, the very men that Constantinus desided to hire for guards. Going berserk and being a Berserker are not really connected in the sense of the phenomenon, but term only.
I would also be careful about mixing berserkers with werewolves. Ofcourse, there are a lot of similarities, but the wolf is generally regarded in many cultures and beliefs around the world, and there are wolf-cults a many without any connection between them. My personal feeling about it is that the “nature” of the two legends is fairly differen, mostly due to the voluntarity-factor. A berserker brought his state upon himself by choise, for a purpose =positive. A werewolf usually took his form by some curse or boon =negative. That’s just my view, tho.
|
|
|
Post by thedarkman on Mar 2, 2016 14:55:23 GMT -5
Very interesting topic! I just happen to be in the early stages of developing a character for a series of historical fantasy short stories who happens to be a "Bersark". I have read some material that seemed to lean towards the idea of berserkers actually shape-shifting into bears while in the throes of combat. Wolves are mentioned as well. I personally like the idea of the were-bear! Berserkers a generally portrayed as evil, out of control beasts, so my challenge is to have my character retain some positive traits while still being kick-ass...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2016 15:57:44 GMT -5
Very interesting indeed. Of course there was the Ottoman 'Başıbozuk' 'damaged head' or 'Delibaş' 'crazy heads'. In modern Turkish, young men are affectionately called 'Delikanlı' roughly translated as crazy blood. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashi-bazouk
|
|
|
Post by deuce on Mar 3, 2016 12:48:29 GMT -5
You make a good point with your doubt about the availability of certain drugs on a widers scale. We’d have to ask a biologist or an actual herbalist who may be able to suggest possibilities. Some pop into mind, like Hyoscyamus niger. Just touching it by accident has been said to make a man throw away his clothes and run wild and, and forget everything about it. – one possibility to going werewolf, perhaps? I cannot say that Hyoscyamus niger was IT for going berserk, but we can take it for an example of a widely-known and used plant with similar effects. Even harder it is to figure out plants and herbs that were available BACK THEN. After all, many species have gone extinct due to cultivation of the best land along the years. The way such ancient drugs were used also has to be kept open. Much has been forgotten. For example – the shamans of Lapland drank reindeer piss. “Why?” –asked the historians. Only very recently it popped out that the shamans fed poisonous mushrooms to the reindeer, and the poison was “cleaned off” in the animal’s system, leaving the drug in it’s optimal form in the piss. Very simple – we just didn’t get it. The case is the same about many mysteries of the past, I imagine, and who knows – just a thought again – if the bloodied shields of the berserkers served the same purpose as reindeer piss did to the shaman? Perhaps the drug got it’s best form, when it got to the blood of an animal? Just a wild thought again. This "drug theory" goes back to 1784, and over the course of almost 250 years nothing has been found. The 1954 tests using pure bufotenine from the fly agaric produced "placidity" in the test subjects. The researcher claimed success because the subjects became red-faced and their eyes rolled. No other plausible alternative psychoactive substance has ever been found to explain the major symptoms of a berserkergang episode. Is that because doing so would invalidate the "drug-shield" theory? Michael P. Speidel is a highly-respected historian, especially of military history. See here: www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&field-author=Michael+P.+Speidel&search-alias=books&text=Michael+P.+Speidel&sort=relevancerank His 2002 paper, "Berserks: Indo-European 'Mad Warriors' ", has been cited scores of times by other academics since it was published. Here is a reprint of it: alkman1.blogspot.com/2007/06/berserks-history-of-indo-european-mad.htmlThe roots of "berserking" and "warrior sodalities" run very deep into the Indo-European past. You brought Achilles into the discussion. The berserking Maruts of the Rig Veda antedate Achilles by about 500 years. Actually they are. How can Cuchullain's warp spasm/ riastradh be explained by mere "rage" and "adrenaline rush"? The first warp-spasm seized Cúchulainn, and made him into a monstrous thing, hideous and shapeless, unheard of. His shanks and his joints, every knuckle and angle and organ from head to foot, shook like a tree in the flood or a reed in the stream. His body made a furious twist inside his skin, so that his feet and shins switched to the rear and his heels and calves switched to the front... On his head the temple-sinews stretched to the nape of his neck, each mighty, immense, measureless knob as big as the head of a month-old child... he sucked one eye so deep into his head that a wild crane couldn't probe it onto his cheek out of the depths of his skull; the other eye fell out along his cheek. His mouth weirdly distorted: his cheek peeled back from his jaws until the gullet appeared, his lungs and his liver flapped in his mouth and throat, his lower jaw struck the upper a lion-killing blow, and fiery flakes large as a ram's fleece reached his mouth from his throat...
— Thomas Kinsella (translator), The Táin, Oxford University Press, 1969As shown by Speidel, the transformed "mad warrior" is by no means limited to Norse literature. Lily Geraty disagrees somewhat with Speidel, positing a form of PTSD as being behind the berserkergang: skemman.is/stream/get/1946/21040/48455/3/Geraty$002c_Lily___Berserk_for_berserkir.pdfShe spends a lot of time pointing out the blind spots of others. What she seems to have never considered is it's quite possible that the Indo-European warrior sodalities devised rituals and techniques to induce a weaponized form of PTSD. They had thousands of years to refine their techniques. This is an interesting discussion.
|
|
|
Post by deuce on Mar 4, 2016 17:00:54 GMT -5
Very interesting topic! I just happen to be in the early stages of developing a character for a series of historical fantasy short stories who happens to be a "Bersark". I have read some material that seemed to lean towards the idea of berserkers actually shape-shifting into bears while in the throes of combat. Wolves are mentioned as well. I personally like the idea of the were-bear! Berserkers a generally portrayed as evil, out of control beasts, so my challenge is to have my character retain some positive traits while still being kick-ass... The link between animal shape-shifters/lycanthropes and true berserkers doesn't appear to be that strong. Bodvar Bjarki (Hrolf Kraki) and Sigismund and Sigfried (Volsunga/Nibelungenlied) are all animal shape-shifters. None of them are ever described as berserkers. Mighty warriors? Yes. Berserkers? No. I would use Bjarki as a model for your were-bear hero. Beowulf ("bee-wolf") also appears to have been a were-bear, originally.
|
|
|
Post by thedarkman on Mar 4, 2016 21:46:49 GMT -5
Very interesting topic! I just happen to be in the early stages of developing a character for a series of historical fantasy short stories who happens to be a "Bersark". I have read some material that seemed to lean towards the idea of berserkers actually shape-shifting into bears while in the throes of combat. Wolves are mentioned as well. I personally like the idea of the were-bear! Berserkers a generally portrayed as evil, out of control beasts, so my challenge is to have my character retain some positive traits while still being kick-ass... The link between animal shape-shifters/lycanthropes and true berserkers doesn't appear to be that strong. Bodvar Bjarki (Hrolf Kraki) and Sigismund and Sigfried (Volsunga/Nibelungenlied) are all animal shape-shifters. None of them are ever described as berserkers. Mighty warriors? Yes. Berserkers? No. I would use Bjarki as a model for your were-bear hero. Beowulf ("bee-wolf") also appears to have been a were-bear, originally. Cool!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2016 5:33:56 GMT -5
You make a good point with your doubt about the availability of certain drugs on a widers scale. We’d have to ask a biologist or an actual herbalist who may be able to suggest possibilities. Some pop into mind, like Hyoscyamus niger. Just touching it by accident has been said to make a man throw away his clothes and run wild and, and forget everything about it. – one possibility to going werewolf, perhaps? I cannot say that Hyoscyamus niger was IT for going berserk, but we can take it for an example of a widely-known and used plant with similar effects. Even harder it is to figure out plants and herbs that were available BACK THEN. After all, many species have gone extinct due to cultivation of the best land along the years. The way such ancient drugs were used also has to be kept open. Much has been forgotten. For example – the shamans of Lapland drank reindeer piss. “Why?” –asked the historians. Only very recently it popped out that the shamans fed poisonous mushrooms to the reindeer, and the poison was “cleaned off” in the animal’s system, leaving the drug in it’s optimal form in the piss. Very simple – we just didn’t get it. The case is the same about many mysteries of the past, I imagine, and who knows – just a thought again – if the bloodied shields of the berserkers served the same purpose as reindeer piss did to the shaman? Perhaps the drug got it’s best form, when it got to the blood of an animal? Just a wild thought again. This "drug theory" goes back to 1784, and over the course of almost 250 years nothing has been found. The 1954 tests using pure bufotenine from the fly agaric produced "placidity" in the test subjects. The researcher claimed success because the subjects became red-faced and their eyes rolled. No other plausible alternative psychoactive substance has ever been found to explain the major symptoms of a berserkergang episode. Is that because doing so would invalidate the "drug-shield" theory? Michael P. Speidel is a highly-respected historian, especially of military history. See here: www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&field-author=Michael+P.+Speidel&search-alias=books&text=Michael+P.+Speidel&sort=relevancerank His 2002 paper, "Berserks: Indo-European 'Mad Warriors' ", has been cited scores of times by other academics since it was published. Here is a reprint of it: alkman1.blogspot.com/2007/06/berserks-history-of-indo-european-mad.htmlThe roots of "berserking" and "warrior sodalities" run very deep into the Indo-European past. You brought Achilles into the discussion. The berserking Maruts of the Rig Veda antedate Achilles by about 500 years. Actually they are. How can Cuchullain's warp spasm/ riastradh be explained by mere "rage" and "adrenaline rush"? The first warp-spasm seized Cúchulainn, and made him into a monstrous thing, hideous and shapeless, unheard of. His shanks and his joints, every knuckle and angle and organ from head to foot, shook like a tree in the flood or a reed in the stream. His body made a furious twist inside his skin, so that his feet and shins switched to the rear and his heels and calves switched to the front... On his head the temple-sinews stretched to the nape of his neck, each mighty, immense, measureless knob as big as the head of a month-old child... he sucked one eye so deep into his head that a wild crane couldn't probe it onto his cheek out of the depths of his skull; the other eye fell out along his cheek. His mouth weirdly distorted: his cheek peeled back from his jaws until the gullet appeared, his lungs and his liver flapped in his mouth and throat, his lower jaw struck the upper a lion-killing blow, and fiery flakes large as a ram's fleece reached his mouth from his throat...
— Thomas Kinsella (translator), The Táin, Oxford University Press, 1969As shown by Speidel, the transformed "mad warrior" is by no means limited to Norse literature. Lily Geraty disagrees somewhat with Speidel, positing a form of PTSD as being behind the berserkergang: skemman.is/stream/get/1946/21040/48455/3/Geraty$002c_Lily___Berserk_for_berserkir.pdfShe spends a lot of time pointing out the blind spots of others. What she seems to have never considered is it's quite possible that the Indo-European warrior sodalities devised rituals and techniques to induce a weaponized form of PTSD. They had thousands of years to refine their techniques. This is an interesting discussion. Thanks for the link Deuce 'Berserk for berserkir:Introducing Combat Trauma to the
Compendium of Theories on the Norse Berserker' by Lily Florence Lowell Geraty was a fascinating read, and a good introduction on the subject. A little selective at times, but with what seems like such a vast subject it's to be expected. Even the etymology of 'berserkir' seems to sway scholars; from a bare-skinned warrior, and the bear-pelt/skinned warriors can gain the attributes of a bear (or any powerful animal, bear, wolf etc.) in battle. This can go even further and berserkirs become werewolves, according to some. I've never been convinced by the 'drug theory' and I think the quote from Benjamin Blaney's dissertation on the tests in the 1950's confirms it. 'Virtually anyone familiar with the character of the berserk should be able to see that a man under the influence of bufotenine bears little resemblance to the Old Norse figure…The only similarities between Fabing's subjects and the berserk seem to be the discolouration of the face and the rolling of the eyes, and this is hardly enough to identify the two types as the same. Moreover, none of the subjects reported feeling the rage and fury so typical of the berserk. Dr. Fabing's conclusions merely indicate his unfamiliarity with the nature of the berserk.'
More importantly, the so-called beserkir's rage, strength and fighting prowess would be severely diminished in such a state. I found Jonathan Shay's research fascinating, I found the 'berserker' stories of Vietnam veterans very interesting. Surviving under impossible conditions or seeing comrades die before your eyes can I imagine, create attributes similar to a 'beserker' I found your mention of Cuchullain's warp spasm/riastradh intriguing. 'The first warp-spasm seized Cúchulainn, and made him into a monstrous thing, hideous and shapeless, unheard of. His shanks and his joints, every knuckle and angle and organ from head to foot, shook like a tree in the flood or a reed in the stream. His body made a furious twist inside his skin, so that his feet and shins switched to the rear and his heels and calves switched to the front... On his head the temple-sinews stretched to the nape of his neck, each mighty, immense, measureless knob as big as the head of a month-old child... he sucked one eye so deep into his head that a wild crane couldn't probe it onto his cheek out of the depths of his skull; the other eye fell out along his cheek. His mouth weirdly distorted: his cheek peeled back from his jaws until the gullet appeared, his lungs and his liver flapped in his mouth and throat, his lower jaw struck the upper a lion-killing blow, and fiery flakes large as a ram's fleece reached his mouth from his throat...'There seem to be some parallels with the Sakha (Yakut) epic Olonkho, the hero is described as, His hamstrings were strained,like a tough stem of a tree;His legs were cramped,like a sash of a trap;His large silver fingers, like 10 grey weasels,pressed head to head,His skin began to tear,and his light clean blood sprinkled with convulsing trickles, like thin strands,of the horse with soft mane and tail,His temple skin shriveled,Like bent bearskin bedding;Lights of blue flame rosehissing from his temples;Like a raked-up fire;A flame as large as a potwas dancing on top of the fire;His eyes were were scintillating with sparks,like sparks on a flint stone;When blood on his backboiled and rolled,approached his throat,he spat and hawkedsplashes of scarlet blood.
Next, I think I'll read ' Berserks: Indo-European 'Mad Warriors' by Michael P. Speidel. Thanks for the links Deuce.
|
|
|
Post by savant on Mar 20, 2016 20:30:59 GMT -5
You make a good point with your doubt about the availability of certain drugs on a widers scale. We’d have to ask a biologist or an actual herbalist who may be able to suggest possibilities. Some pop into mind, like Hyoscyamus niger. Just touching it by accident has been said to make a man throw away his clothes and run wild and, and forget everything about it. – one possibility to going werewolf, perhaps? I cannot say that Hyoscyamus niger was IT for going berserk, but we can take it for an example of a widely-known and used plant with similar effects. Even harder it is to figure out plants and herbs that were available BACK THEN. After all, many species have gone extinct due to cultivation of the best land along the years. The way such ancient drugs were used also has to be kept open. Much has been forgotten. For example – the shamans of Lapland drank reindeer piss. “Why?” –asked the historians. Only very recently it popped out that the shamans fed poisonous mushrooms to the reindeer, and the poison was “cleaned off” in the animal’s system, leaving the drug in it’s optimal form in the piss. Very simple – we just didn’t get it. The case is the same about many mysteries of the past, I imagine, and who knows – just a thought again – if the bloodied shields of the berserkers served the same purpose as reindeer piss did to the shaman? Perhaps the drug got it’s best form, when it got to the blood of an animal? Just a wild thought again. This "drug theory" goes back to 1784, and over the course of almost 250 years nothing has been found. The 1954 tests using pure bufotenine from the fly agaric produced "placidity" in the test subjects. The researcher claimed success because the subjects became red-faced and their eyes rolled. No other plausible alternative psychoactive substance has ever been found to explain the major symptoms of a berserkergang episode. Is that because doing so would invalidate the "drug-shield" theory? Michael P. Speidel is a highly-respected historian, especially of military history. See here: www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&field-author=Michael+P.+Speidel&search-alias=books&text=Michael+P.+Speidel&sort=relevancerank His 2002 paper, "Berserks: Indo-European 'Mad Warriors' ", has been cited scores of times by other academics since it was published. Here is a reprint of it: alkman1.blogspot.com/2007/06/berserks-history-of-indo-european-mad.htmlThe roots of "berserking" and "warrior sodalities" run very deep into the Indo-European past. You brought Achilles into the discussion. The berserking Maruts of the Rig Veda antedate Achilles by about 500 years. Actually they are. How can Cuchullain's warp spasm/ riastradh be explained by mere "rage" and "adrenaline rush"? The first warp-spasm seized Cúchulainn, and made him into a monstrous thing, hideous and shapeless, unheard of. His shanks and his joints, every knuckle and angle and organ from head to foot, shook like a tree in the flood or a reed in the stream. His body made a furious twist inside his skin, so that his feet and shins switched to the rear and his heels and calves switched to the front... On his head the temple-sinews stretched to the nape of his neck, each mighty, immense, measureless knob as big as the head of a month-old child... he sucked one eye so deep into his head that a wild crane couldn't probe it onto his cheek out of the depths of his skull; the other eye fell out along his cheek. His mouth weirdly distorted: his cheek peeled back from his jaws until the gullet appeared, his lungs and his liver flapped in his mouth and throat, his lower jaw struck the upper a lion-killing blow, and fiery flakes large as a ram's fleece reached his mouth from his throat...
— Thomas Kinsella (translator), The Táin, Oxford University Press, 1969As shown by Speidel, the transformed "mad warrior" is by no means limited to Norse literature. Lily Geraty disagrees somewhat with Speidel, positing a form of PTSD as being behind the berserkergang: skemman.is/stream/get/1946/21040/48455/3/Geraty$002c_Lily___Berserk_for_berserkir.pdfShe spends a lot of time pointing out the blind spots of others. What she seems to have never considered is it's quite possible that the Indo-European warrior sodalities devised rituals and techniques to induce a weaponized form of PTSD. They had thousands of years to refine their techniques. This is an interesting discussion. Yes I'm interested in Berserkers specifically because of the Slàine comics (as displayed by the image above). Funny how people believe the Vikings to be the most physically imposing & barbarian-esque warriors of ancient history when the Celts were equally physically imposing & barbaric (they did steamroll the Vikings @ The Battle of Clontarf).
|
|
|
Post by deuce on Mar 21, 2016 10:43:26 GMT -5
Speidel's 2002 paper, "Berserks: Indo-European 'Mad Warriors' ", has been cited scores of times by other academics since it was published. Here is a reprint of it: alkman1.blogspot.com/2007/06/berserks-history-of-indo-european-mad.htmlThe roots of "berserking" and "warrior sodalities" run very deep into the Indo-European past. The berserking Maruts of the Rig Veda antedate Achilles by about 500 years. How can Cuchullain's warp spasm/ riastradh be explained by mere "rage" and "adrenaline rush"? The first warp-spasm seized Cúchulainn, and made him into a monstrous thing, hideous and shapeless, unheard of. His shanks and his joints, every knuckle and angle and organ from head to foot, shook like a tree in the flood or a reed in the stream. His body made a furious twist inside his skin, so that his feet and shins switched to the rear and his heels and calves switched to the front... On his head the temple-sinews stretched to the nape of his neck, each mighty, immense, measureless knob as big as the head of a month-old child... he sucked one eye so deep into his head that a wild crane couldn't probe it onto his cheek out of the depths of his skull; the other eye fell out along his cheek. His mouth weirdly distorted: his cheek peeled back from his jaws until the gullet appeared, his lungs and his liver flapped in his mouth and throat, his lower jaw struck the upper a lion-killing blow, and fiery flakes large as a ram's fleece reached his mouth from his throat... — Thomas Kinsella (translator), The Táin, Oxford University Press, 1969As shown by Speidel, the transformed "mad warrior" is by no means limited to Norse literature. Yes I'm interested in Berserkers specifically because of the Slàine comics (as displayed by the image above). Funny how people believe the Vikings to be the most physically imposing & barbarian-esque warriors of ancient history when the Celts were equally physically imposing & barbaric (they did steamroll the Vikings @ The Battle of Clontarf). The Slaine comics are fun. Sometimes I don't agree with where Pat Mills takes the character, but it's a worthy, long-running series. The Celtic berserkers are fascinating. Cuchullain could basically turn into the incredible Hulk. Robert E. Howard definitely thought the Celtic berserkers measured up to the Norse variety. He said so about both Cormac Mac Art and Turlough Dubh.
|
|
|
Post by buxom9sorceress on May 7, 2016 23:23:28 GMT -5
i typed are epileptics like berserkers? into google. > lots of interesting results to read. ==== interesting topic. thanks for all posts in here. ==== self induced rage? secret herbal drugs? special type of epilepsy? spirit possession [ wolves or bears ] ? [ or a special combination of these things ? ] whatever special secret methods & powers the 'berserker' cults were using were obviously very successful... because they were so famous, and feared. ==== >>>> In 1015, Jarl Eiríkr Hákonarson of Norway outlawed berserkers, and Grágás, the medieval Icelandic law code, sentenced berserker warriors to outlawry. By the 12th century, organised berserker war-gangs had been completely disbanded. ==== >>[ Christian led authorities were [and still are] always very ruthless at stamping out any ancient cults that they feared, or any that had supernatural connections [ which they considered evil, because they could not fully understand or control their powers ]]. [ i bet that deep under the Vatican in rome, most ancient secrets are still kept hidden from public in huge collections of forbidden scripts and archaeological artifacts? > the true secrets of berserker gangs are probably deep in there, gathering dust? ] == [ maybe they used evil nazi scientists to secretly test the 'berserker' methods /effects on helpless victims in concentration /death camps, in ww2 ? hell knows they tested far worse stuff than that on many of those doomed prisoners.]
|
|
|
Post by deuce on Jun 2, 2016 12:47:22 GMT -5
I think it's likely that most berserkers had the "warrior gene": www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090121093343.htm It was said in some sagas and legends that the berserkergang ran in families. Studies have shown that alcohol and amphetamines tend to bring on increased violence in those with the gene. All early Indo-European tribes used alcohol and the ones in the East are known to have used ephedra.
|
|