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Post by Von K on Apr 6, 2023 20:28:32 GMT -5
Thanks kemp! Hadn't seen that one before. Of particular interest was how Henry Cavill was involved in a redesign of the sword where he asked for the hilt to be at a down angle to give enough space to pass over the wrist when the wrist was turned aiding in the various angles and movements at any time for the Witcher fight style, of course there were different versions made depending on what they needed for various action sequences, and this included safety precautions for some close ups. Yeah, that was a nice practical touch. The symbolic use of Renfri's amulet was a nice character based/thematic one as well - though I'm not sure if that idea came from HC, the show writers or the books. Not the sort of thing that Conan would do though.
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Post by kemp on Apr 7, 2023 6:13:59 GMT -5
Of particular interest was how Henry Cavill was involved in a redesign of the sword where he asked for the hilt to be at a down angle to give enough space to pass over the wrist when the wrist was turned aiding in the various angles and movements at any time for the Witcher fight style, of course there were different versions made depending on what they needed for various action sequences, and this included safety precautions for some close ups. Yeah, that was a nice practical touch. The symbolic use of Renfri's amulet was a nice character based/thematic one as well - though I'm not sure if that idea came from HC, the show writers or the books. Not the sort of thing that Conan would do though. Definitely not, all Conan needs is his strong sword arm.
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Post by kemp on Jun 16, 2023 8:38:30 GMT -5
We enjoy the martial art side of these historical age old weapons, but when you think about it, fighting with weapons such as swords is incredibly haphazard, especially if up against a similarly armed opponent of same skill...or even less skill. So much can go wrong at any given time.
Think of all the times you have sparred for fun with wooden or foam swords, the hits you have taken, now imagine it was for real.
( I moved the post here, I initially had this on the weapons mettallurgy thread, but seems more appropriate on this one. )
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Post by Von K on Jun 17, 2023 14:20:49 GMT -5
Some of that haphazardness seems to be alluded to when Conan says: "You draw his guard, then – stab, slash! And either his head is off, or yours."
And it does lend credence to all those rpg fumble tables esp the Runequest one which was apparently a compilation of mishaps that had occurred during SCA melees which one of the authors had experienced.
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Post by kemp on Aug 23, 2023 19:55:08 GMT -5
True words Von K, and generally speaking, I seriously think we have no idea how haphazard and brutally violent a medieval battle ground could be, that is, a large number of people going at it with weapons such axes, polearms, spears and sword and shield. Things are happening fast, especially when the infantry closes in, add to that a cavalry charge, mayhem follows, warriors are falling back and retreating, groups are still engaged in battle, watch out for that hail of arrows...... Things get barbarian real fast.
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Post by kemp on Aug 23, 2023 20:15:24 GMT -5
These days so many of us get hung up on HEMA techniques, various western and eastern martial arts, I am guilty of that having grown up watching films with great stylised fight choreography. There is nothing wrong with that, it gives us a window into techniques, but I am talking about a separation between a controlled environment and that of the actual battle field where 'technique suffers' so to speak.
Here is more choreography for you, yes, some questionable period armour and over the top mayhem, but I am fan of the Viking series, it has some historical grit to it, and I think they partly captured the chaos and muck in this scene.
Slight digress, during one of the mass demonstrations earlier on in my home state of Victoria, the mainstream media made a big deal of this one guy who they claimed punched a horse as the officer came barring down on the bloke, so what if he did, a horse is fair game in battle.
Notice at 3:11 how Rollo cuts down the horse, people cringe at animal cruelty these days, and I get that, but in an environment where you are on foot and someone is charging at you on a horse, well, the horses legs make a good target, whatever works. After all horses were the battle vehicles for most of history, that guy getting trampled at 3:30.
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Post by Von K on Aug 24, 2023 16:54:04 GMT -5
That was a great scene, must have taken ages to film. Wonder what props they were using - even rebated metal weapons can dish out some nasty injuries should an accident occur.
You might be interested in taking a gander at this Marshal's guide for SCA combats:
I haven't seen Vikings yet nor read the books but it looks to be an entertaining balance between accuracy, watchability and practicality. I will catch up with it one day, it looks good and I know Jason and Erik and a few other members here are fans and have spoken highly of it.
Also maybe take a gander at The Battle of the Bastards from Game of Thrones.
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Post by kemp on Aug 24, 2023 22:11:51 GMT -5
Interesting link to armoured combat with rebated blades guidelines, covers the helmets, gear, padding, weapon specs, combat rules, targets and permissable techniques. Note the combat injury procedures. Even a blunt can cause good damage. Hate to think about the insurance premiums and paperwork associated with running these clubs.
Battle of the Bastards
Case in point, notice at 2:16 when Jon Snow was two clicks away from being axed by the charging mounted soldier that he was unaware of, and just at the last moment as luck would have it someone else off to the side engaged his would be slayer. I'm glad it was included, basically saying that no matter how great of a fighter you are, a battleground was a very chaotic environment, and we can make comparisons with the haphazard nature of the unfortunate, contemporary and real warfare in places such as Europe, estimates on how long the average soldier lasts on the front lines.
We love fantasy, various fictional works in literature and film on this forum, but I think it's great that, irrespective of some our differences on certain topics, we are all mature enough to comprehend the grim reality of actual combat and warfare. Somehow, that realisation enhances are enjoyment of when fantasy gets it right, or rather close enough to right.
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Post by Von K on Aug 25, 2023 18:25:08 GMT -5
Thanks for the post Kemp! Going back to your point about choreography - here's Skallagrim covering a very famous saber duel from an old Polish movie. Sapkowski quotes from this duel in one of the Witcher books. One of the actors was nearly very seriously injured during this scene emphasising the haphazardness of combat even in very controlled conditions: The Most Realistic Sword Duel in Movie History
Full fight here if you're interested but it will spoil the movie if you haven't seen it (both the film and the book upon which it is based are apparently very good):
The Deluge Duel
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Post by kemp on Aug 28, 2023 6:58:26 GMT -5
Thanks for the post Kemp! Going back to your point about choreography - here's Skallagrim covering a very famous saber duel from an old Polish movie. Sapkowski quotes from this duel in one of the Witcher books. One of the actors was nearly very seriously injured during this scene emphasising the haphazardness of combat even in very controlled conditions: The Most Realistic Sword Duel in Movie History
Full fight here if you're interested but it will spoil the movie if you haven't seen it (both the film and the book upon which it is based are apparently very good):
The Deluge Duel
They sure don't do them like that anymore, all larps and CGI these days, but that's understandable considering the risks involved with just one misplaced lunge or cut, even if you are using swords with blunt 1 -2 mm thick edges.
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Post by kemp on Aug 28, 2023 7:12:47 GMT -5
There are ways to be somewhat effective in a sword fight.
Firstly, avoid getting into a sword fight, secondly, if you do get into a sword fight make sure you are armed with a sword and your opponent is unarmed or armed with a small knife.
Lastly, if your opponent just happens to be armed with a sword, ditch your sword and do this instead.
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Post by Von K on Aug 28, 2023 12:55:31 GMT -5
Thanks for the post Kemp! Going back to your point about choreography - here's Skallagrim covering a very famous saber duel from an old Polish movie. Sapkowski quotes from this duel in one of the Witcher books. One of the actors was nearly very seriously injured during this scene emphasising the haphazardness of combat even in very controlled conditions: The Most Realistic Sword Duel in Movie History
Full fight here if you're interested but it will spoil the movie if you haven't seen it (both the film and the book upon which it is based are apparently very good):
The Deluge Duel They sure don't do them like that anymore, all larps and CGI these days, but that's understandable considering the risks involved with just one misplaced lunge or cut, even if you are using swords with blunt 1 -2 mm thick edges. In general I'd tend to agree with that notion - I'd rather safer actors and a slightly toned down combat than a fraught combat with unsafe actors. I prefer the tension to come from the drama rather than from the actor's themselves being actually at risk during the filming.
Other's may disagree though, and perhaps rightly. There were quite a few injuries filming Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy. Viggo Mortensen lost a tooth in one incident and had to spontaneously parry with his sword in mid flight a dagger thrown at him by accident during one combat scene. Henry Cavill got a hamstring injury filming the Witcher. Dwayne Johnson tore a ligament filming Hercules. A certain degree of risk may be necessary to getting the best results.
When the actors, choreographers and directors are committed to taking calculated risks to get the best results, what they produce can go down in cinema history like the famous duel from The Deluge.
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Post by Von K on Aug 28, 2023 13:06:54 GMT -5
There are ways to be somewhat effective in a sword fight. Firstly, avoid getting into a sword fight, secondly, if you do get into a sword fight make sure you are armed with a sword and your opponent is unarmed or armed with a small knife. Lastly, if your opponent just happens to be armed with a sword, ditch your sword and do this instead. I read there was going to be a prolonged swordfight during that scene but Harrison Ford was ill on set at the time and not up to too much physical exertion so they cut the fight short and had him use a pistol.
As a result some regard this scene as the death of honour. Would John Carter of Mars ever do something like this?
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Post by kemp on Aug 28, 2023 19:20:15 GMT -5
I read there was going to be a prolonged swordfight during that scene but Harrison Ford was ill on set at the time and not up to too much physical exertion so they cut the fight short and had him use a pistol.
As a result some regard this scene as the death of honour. Would John Carter of Mars ever do something like this?
I remember watching that scene back in the 80's when I was a kid, my folks watched it too, and never forget how my mother ripped into Indiana Jones calling him a coward, I was like 'what, did you expect him to use his whip against that'. Yeah, I also read somewhere that it was Ford's idea due to time constraints and the aforementioned pain he was in, but I know what you mean, not a good look. I mean we can't have our protagonists start ambushing their enemies and shooting them in the back. Again Harrison Ford, what the hell with him
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Post by kemp on Aug 28, 2023 20:03:48 GMT -5
In general I'd tend to agree with that notion - I'd rather safer actors and a slightly toned down combat than a fraught combat with unsafe actors. I prefer the tension to come from the drama rather than from the actor's themselves being actually at risk during the filming.
Other's may disagree though, and perhaps rightly. There were quite a few injuries filming Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy. Viggo Mortensen lost a tooth in one incident and had to spontaneously parry with his sword in mid flight a dagger thrown at him by accident during one combat scene. Henry Cavill got a hamstring injury filming the Witcher. Dwayne Johnson tore a ligament filming Hercules. A certain degree of risk may be necessary to getting the best results.
When the actors, choreographers and directors are committed to taking calculated risks to get the best results, what they produce can go down in cinema history like the famous duel from The Deluge.
I suppose the challenge is always getting that balance right, between safety during the choreography of a fight scene and a semblance of realism for the audiences. Seriously speaking, simulating actual combat, the real deal was a dirty and quick affair, normally the guy that got in the first hit was the victor. You wanted to finish the job quickly, the longer the duel the more chance for disaster. I highly recommend 'Book of Swords' by Frank Reinhardt, some fascinating insights by this popular contributor to the study of historical martial arts. In an interview with Frank Reinhardt. 'ARMA: And this still carries over today in performance sword fights in movies and television, as well as what is taught in the sport of modern saber fencing. This is all a result of the erosion of a life-and-death martial art into a pastime. HR: Case in point is the British experience against -- oh, I think it was the north Indians -- where they were taking discarded British swords, sharpening them and then going and [practically] cutting soldiers in half. The British were astonished, and when asked how they managed this, [the Indians] said, "Oh we used your blades, they're very good." This shocked [the British]. When they asked how [the Indians] taught fighting, they said, "Oh, we don't teach anything, we just run up and hit really hard!"' www.thearma.org/spotlight/hrinterview.htm It has been years, but I will need to have another look at his book.
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