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Post by deuce on Oct 1, 2016 12:33:17 GMT -5
"REH was inspired by Russians in connection to the Kozaki, creating a character like Olgerd, doesn't mean you start applying Russia to everything." -- Bront, Sept. 23, 2016You seem to be underinformed about what ethnic group rose to dominance amongst the myriad initial strains that made up the Cossacks. Especially the Zaporozhian branch. Anyway, since you brought up Russians and Olgerd, let's take a look at what Robert E. Howard said about a certain Russian and compare another passage REH wrote about Olgerd. This is from Sons of the Hawk/Country of the Knife. Vladimir Jackrovitch is a Russian adventurer who has wandered down from the north and dreams of building an empire out of a bunch of bandits. He is contemplating torturing Brent: “Say to him,” gasped the dying man, fighting fiercely for a few more moments of life, “say: ‘The Black Tigers had a new prince; they call him Abd el Khafid, but his real name is Vladimir Jakrovitch.’ ” (...)
This torch was placed in a socket in the wall, and when his eyes became accustomed to the wavering glare, he saw a tall, powerful man in a long satin caftan and a green turban with a gold brooch. From beneath this turban, wide gray eyes, as cold as a sword of ice, regarded him contemplatively.
This was Abd el Khafid, of course, but it was like meeting a character of fable clothed in flesh.
Brent studied the man almost impersonally. He looked Oriental enough in that garb, with his black pointed beard. But his hands were too big for a high-caste Moslem’s hands—sinewy, ruthless hands that looked as if they could grasp either a sword hilt or a scepter. The body under the caftan appeared hard and capable—not with the tigerish suppleness of Shirkuh, but strong and quick, nevertheless.Compare that to this from A Witch Shall be Born: The other [Olgerd Vladislav] was dressed like them in a white, girdled khalat and a flowing head-dress which, banded about the temples with a triple circlet of braided camel-hair, fell to his shoulders. But he was not a Shemite. The dusk was not so thick, nor Conan’s hawk-like sight so clouded that he could not perceive the man’s facial characteristics. He was as tall as Conan, though not so heavy-limbed. His shoulders were broad and his supple figure was hard as steel and whalebone. A short black beard did not altogether mask the aggressive jut of his lean jaw, and grey eyes cold and piercing as a sword gleamed from the shadow of the kafieh.Forget all about the fact that REH is describing two tall, tough, powerful men from the north. Forget that Vladimir and Vladislav are black-bearded men in native dress, both of whom are contemplating inflicting unnecessary pain on the Westerner in front of them. Forget that both of these "adventurers" are planning on turning bandits (some of whom are Arabs or the ancestors thereof) into an army that will conquer an empire. Forget that Vladimir and Vladislav are both thieves. Just look at these two sentences and tell me that there isn't a chance that REH had one passage in mind when he wrote the other: "From beneath this turban, wide gray eyes, as cold as a sword of ice, regarded him contemplatively."
"A short black beard did not altogether mask the aggressive jut of his lean jaw, and grey eyes cold and piercing as a sword gleamed from the shadow of the kafieh." When AWSbB took place, the kozaki had only been in existence for fifty years total. That's nowhere near long enough for an entirely new language to develop. Olgerd's name had to come from somewhere. It's sure as Crom's hells that it wasn't the Zaporoska River and the lands thereabouts. My thread on "Russians in REH's Fiction" can be found here: swordsofreh.proboards.com/thread/297/russians-robert-howards-fiction-spoilers
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Post by bront on Oct 3, 2016 5:30:05 GMT -5
REH's Zaporoska for me, but I'm cool with you extrapolating BS in connection to Olgerd. Go nuts.
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Post by deuce on Mar 13, 2017 9:46:50 GMT -5
The Epic Battle of Kulikovo, in 1380: from The Zadonshchina (The Exploits beyond the Don)The beginning of the end for the Golden Horde and the first steps taken towards an independent Russia. (...) Nightingale! If you could only sing the glory of these two brothers, Olgerd's sons (These Lithuanian Princes had acknowledged the sovereigny of Moscow), Andrey of Polotsk and Dmitri of Bryansk, for they were born in Lithuania on a shield of the vanguard, swaddled under trumpets, raised under helmets, fed at the point of the spear, and given drink with the sharp sword. Spoke Andrey to his brother Dmitri: "We are two brothers, sons of Olgerd, grandchildren of Gedemin, greatgrandchildren of Skoldimer. Let us mount our swift steeds, let us drink, O brother, with our helmets the water from the swift Don, let us try our tempered swords. " (...) Translation from Anthology of Russian Literature From the Earliest Period to the Present Time, p. 58-63 , 1902. A great post with some great artwork! I'd always wondered where REH got "Olgerd", since the most common and most accurate form is "Algirdas". "Olgerd" is the Russian form of the name, as opposed to Lithuanian "Algirdas". REH doesn't seem to have made any real distinction between Balts and Slavs that I can see.
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Post by deuce on Jul 22, 2017 18:39:25 GMT -5
Olgerd as rendered by the excellent Kerry Gammill in SSoC #58...
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Post by keith on Nov 1, 2017 6:12:37 GMT -5
I am absolutely not about to pose as knowing more about this than Deuce -- or for that matter than anybody else on this thread. I'm just thinking that REH's "kozaks" are, as everybody knows, based on the "kozaki" (a Polish word originally, I believe)of our own history, which became "Cossacks" in English. And one major Cossack community, along with the Kumans and Don Cossacks, was the Zaporizhiye sech. From which, it stands out like the proverbial, REH got his "Zaporoskans" of the Zaporoska River.
We can pretty much take it, though, that the Zaporoskan kozaks of the Hyborian Age came from all over the scene, wastrels, outlaws, malcontents, rebels and just plain rogues of all varieties. Conan himself is a perfect example. As for Olgerd Vladislav, he COULD have been Hyperborean originally. Nothing in "A Witch Shall Be Born" suggests that Olgerd Vladislav was his original name. Wherever he came from, he could have assumed an alias once he arrived on the Zaporoska and joined the kozaks, rising to the rank of hetman before he headed south, maybe in search of richer plunder, maybe because he violated the kozak customs.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2017 2:08:50 GMT -5
Extracts from the Untitled Synopsis (A Witch Shall be Born) concerning Olgerd Vladislav. " The soldiers and the populace rose, but only her guard were left in the ctiy.These were cut down by the Shemites, except the captain of the guard, Conan the Cimmerian, who refused to believe Taramis was Taramis. He swore it was some devil in her shape, and fought ferociously before being overpowered. The boy said that the Kothian was having him crucified outside the city wall. This happened; Conan fought off the vultures with his teeth, and attracted the attention of a bandit chief who was scouting near the walls in hopes of plunder. This was Olgerd Vladislav, a Zaporoskan, or kozak, who had wandered down from the steppes and established himself among the nomadic Shemitish tribes of desert. He freed Conan and took him into his band, after a savage test of the Cimmerian's endurance." (P.343, Conan of Cimmeria, Volume 2, Del Rey/Wandering Star) "... Conan had in the meantime, wishing vengeance on the Kothian, raised a great army of nomads. Olgerd intended taking and sacking Khauran, but Conan deposed him, and announced his intention of rescuing Taramis and placing her back on the throne." (P.344, Conan of Cimmeria, Volume 2, Del Rey/Wandering Star)
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Post by Von K on Nov 23, 2017 18:06:54 GMT -5
Thanks for the additional commentary gentlemen. Perhaps only tangentially related, but here's a scan of page one of an early draft of the Witch Shall Be Born typescript which REH sent to Mr Barlow, together with REH's letter. The scans are from an auction of the draft that was posted on the old forum some four years back.
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Post by Char-Vell on Jan 9, 2018 11:24:29 GMT -5
Rightly or wrongly, I always imagined the Hyperboreans to be gaunt, pale, esoteric weirdos who were into sorcery, with no analog to any real historical people.
Olgerd wasn't weird enough for me to think of as Hyperborean,I don't think I ever dwelled on his origins overmuch, he was just another turkey that needed his skull split by Conan.
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Post by Von K on Jan 9, 2018 12:07:55 GMT -5
Rightly or wrongly, I always imagined the Hyperboreans to be gaunt, pale, esoteric weirdos who were into sorcery, with no analog to any real historical people. Olgerd wasn't weird enough for me to think of as Hyperborean,I don't think I ever dwelled on his origins overmuch, he was just another turkey that needed his skull split by Conan. The gauntness of Hyperboreans comes from REH, but the pale esoteric weirdness and sorcery comes from the pastiches of Carter and DeCamp, perhaps drawing influence from Moorcock's Melniboneans, plus some symbology from Tolkien's LotR trilogy (white hand of Saruman).
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Post by deuce on Jan 9, 2018 12:22:47 GMT -5
Rightly or wrongly, I always imagined the Hyperboreans to be gaunt, pale, esoteric weirdos who were into sorcery, with no analog to any real historical people. You didn't "imagine" that yourself. You were fed that idea by de Camp and Carter, who ignored everything REH had to say about the Hyperboreans in favor of their fanciful version. De Camp also wanted to recycle his research for Wall of Serpents. We see Hyperboreans twice in REH's Conan yarns and they don't resemble the Carter/de Camp version. Also, Arus the Nemedian thought that Conan might be a Hyperborean in TGitB. Was Conan a "pale, esoteric weirdo"? Olgerd had a colorful past, wandering down from the North--much like Conan--becoming a kozak and then a leader of the Zuagirs. He was a badass, just not as badass as Conan. He had obviously also known Conan previously. An untold tale there. Speaking of where Olgerd came from: "It is rumored that [Conan] has become the right-hand man of Olgerd Vladislav, the kozak adventurer who wandered down from the northern steppes and made himself chief of a band of Zuagirs."-- the Nemedian savant, Astreas, in A Witch Shall Be BornOn REH's map, the "northern steppes" lie just east of Hyperborea and may extend westward into the kingdom itself. Hyperborea was said by Howard to have a "frontier tradition". Olgerd could've easily have come from one of those outposts. He certainly wasn't a barbarian nor was he "born on the Zaporoska" as some have tried to say.
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Post by Char-Vell on Jan 9, 2018 13:57:51 GMT -5
You didn't "imagine" that yourself. You were fed that idea by de Camp and Carter, who ignored everything REH had to say about the Hyperboreans in favor of their fanciful version. De Camp also wanted to recycle his research for Wall of Serpents. We see Hyperboreans twice in REH's Conan yarns and they don't resemble the Carter/de Camp version. Also, Arus the Nemedian thought that Conan might be a Hyperborean in TGitB. Was Conan a "pale, esoteric weirdo"? There's no doubt the Witchmen in Legions of the Dead (along with input from Marvel comics and Clark Ashton Smith) are where I get my image of Hyperboreans from. I dig the imagery. maybe they are weirdo cultist that live alongside the more Olgerd-like Hyperboreans? Howard may well have intended them as stand-ins for Russians as far as I know. I also tend to equate Hyrkanians with Ukrainians. so I guess Olgerd's Eastern European sound name would put him in the Hyrkanian category for me. At the risk of losing even more of my Howardian street cred, I also don't harbor an intense distaste for Lin Carter, I rather like his writing.
DeCamp, not so much.
To the eyes of a dude like Arus, Conan would have appeared pretty esoteric and weird, if not pale. I doubt Arus got out much.
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Post by kemp on Feb 18, 2018 2:17:34 GMT -5
Yes, Olgerd Vladislav has an eastern European sounding name, so does Zaporoska, and if I had to choose between a Hyborian or Hyrkanian I would go for the latter, but all the occupations and wanderings of Olgerd the only thing we have in relation to a region and Olgerd is Conan referring to Olgerd in this way in a 'A Witch Shall Be Born'
'If I could come down from this beam I'd make a dying dog out of you, you Zaporoskan thief!'.
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Post by deuce on Feb 18, 2018 2:48:31 GMT -5
Extracts from the Untitled Synopsis (A Witch Shall be Born) concerning Olgerd Vladislav. " The soldiers and the populace rose, but only her guard were left in the ctiy.These were cut down by the Shemites, except the captain of the guard, Conan the Cimmerian, who refused to believe Taramis was Taramis. He swore it was some devil in her shape, and fought ferociously before being overpowered. The boy said that the Kothian was having him crucified outside the city wall. This happened; Conan fought off the vultures with his teeth, and attracted the attention of a bandit chief who was scouting near the walls in hopes of plunder. This was Olgerd Vladislav, a Zaporoskan, or kozak, who had wandered down from the steppes and established himself among the nomadic Shemitish tribes of the desert. " (P.343, Conan of Cimmeria, Volume 2, Del Rey/Wandering Star) Thanks for posting this, Hun. I meant to comment on it quite awhile back. The underlined sentence demonstrates that "Zaporoskan" is essentially synonymous with "kozak". When Conan called Olgerd a "Zaporoskan", he was doing nothing more than calling him a "kozak". He certainly didn't stamp Olgerd's birth certificate, "Born on the Zaporoska." Far from it. That sentence you quoted is a nice confirmation of the fact, but it isn't necessary. The Zaporoska flows nowhere near the "northern steppes" and Olgerd is stated as being from the northern steppes. Olgerd came from the northern steppes. Robert E. Howard states it in no uncertain terms. There are other hints--which I posted at the very beginning of this topic--like when Olgerd refers to Conan as "scum of the western hills". Someone born clear down on the southerly, eastward-flowing Zaporoska would simply call Conan "northern scum". Olgerd didn't, because he--as Robert E. Howard plainly stated--originally came from the northern steppes, not the Zaporoska river, which flows into the extreme southern end of the Vilayet and cannot trend much further north than the Kothic-Zamoran marches. Thus, Cimmeria would lie due west of where Olgerd originally came from (ie, "the northern steppes"). REH also plainly stated that the individual members of the kozaki came from all over the Hyborian lands. That would include northerly Hyborian lands like Hyperborea.
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Post by kemp on Feb 18, 2018 4:02:00 GMT -5
At the end of the day he did call Olgerd a 'Zaporoskan', and Conan certainly did not refer to Olgerd as a Hyperborian or any Hyborian. Trying to go beyond this and extract a Hyborian origin fro Olgerd is a bit of a......stretch.
Sure, Olgerd may have some Hyborian lineage, perhaps some Hyrkanian given the location, but that's purely conjecture based on nothing concrete, as trying to guess that Olgerd was 'really a Hyborian' because he called Conan 'scum of the western hills' as opposed to 'northern scum'.
We know he was a hetman on the Zaporoska, that was referenced a few times, but I never heard Hyperborean or Hyborian, even when the two non Hyborians, Conan and Olgerd, discussed war plans and Conan mentioned securing three thousand Hyborians. When Conan defeated Olgerd, the former leader of the Zuagirs rode eastward.
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Post by deuce on Feb 18, 2018 5:07:12 GMT -5
At the end of the day he did call Olgerd a 'Zaporoskan' Which, as I pointed out, meant the same thing to Howard as "kozak". Conan called an ex-kozak a "kozak". Pretty amazing. Oh, but you saying that Olgerd was a Hyrkanian, that is rock sold, amirite? You do realize that the Hyrkanians/Turanians were the special enemies of the kozaki, just like the Ottomans and wild Turkish tribes were for their real-world counterparts, the Cossacks, correct? Yet, you think Olgerd--a grey-eyed man from the northern steppes who swears only by Mitra--you think he's most likely an Hyrkanian. That's what you said. Did I miss all of Howard's references to tall, grey-eyed, Mitra-worshiping Hyrkanians in the other Conan yarns? I dunno, Kemp. Seems to be a bit of a.......stretch. Olgerd Vladislav, the kozak adventurer who wandered down from the northern steppes and made himself chief of a band of Zuagirs. -- A Witch Shall Be Born
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