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Post by lordyam on Jul 3, 2017 22:53:35 GMT -5
If there's a problem Khostra upset it. Seriously their version of the guy is sublime.
And given that Octavia cons Conan into beating the shit out of her torturer she's plenty cunning.
I felt showing the buildup and then Conan meeting her was a lot better. I can buy Conan rising things to get her.
Honestly the only real problem I had with the story is the very end, where Conan kisses Octavia until she relents despite her struggling. That....actually is kinda sexist to a degree. Granted it's not as bad as others but I have seen uncomfortable work where the hero kisses the woman until she relents. That kinda mindset has actually contributed to rape (i.e. "she doesn't really mean it when she says no.")
Unlike what a lot of whiney cunts on tumblr complain about that's worth criticizing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2017 7:14:34 GMT -5
I figured they left it out because "misogyny". As if Conan wouldn't have every right to be very angry. If it had been a Sonja comic, Red would've been slappin' the guy silly and everyone would cheer. Still, this is much better than Wood. You may have a point with the "misogyny" angle, but that's the least of it as far as I'm concerned. The whole scene has been de-fanged. The ferocious, desperate intensity of the original combat as depicted by REH (and preserved by Thomas & Buscema) has been discarded. This I really don't understand. You have an opportunity to adapt a harrowing scene of violent, life-or-death action in a Conan comic in 2017, and produce a lower key, less intense interpretation than we saw in the 1970's, much less the 1930's prose original. It may be unfair to compare modern creators to Thomas & Buscema, but both creative teams are working from REH's story. So I'm with Hun on this. I agree wholeheartedly.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2017 7:31:19 GMT -5
. Yeah, I'm not sure why they skim over little details that are just as easy to put in. It'd make a good version that much better. I figured they left it out because "misogyny". As if Conan wouldn't have every right to be very angry. If it had been a Sonja comic, Red would've been slappin' the guy silly and everyone would cheer. Still, this is much better than Wood. I think you're probably right about the "misogyny". If that is how easily modern creators fear offending the readership, DH may as well give up the rights to the Conan series.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2017 7:38:09 GMT -5
If there's a problem Khostra upset it. Seriously their version of the guy is sublime. And given that Octavia cons Conan into beating the shit out of her torturer she's plenty cunning. I felt showing the buildup and then Conan meeting her was a lot better. I can buy Conan rising things to get her. Honestly the only real problem I had with the story is the very end, where Conan kisses Octavia until she relents despite her struggling. That....actually is kinda sexist to a degree. Granted it's not as bad as others but I have seen uncomfortable work where the hero kisses the woman until she relents. That kinda mindset has actually contributed to rape (i.e. "she doesn't really mean it when she says no.") Unlike what a lot of whiney cunts on tumblr complain about that's worth criticizing. I really don't mind developing characters between the adaptations. But, when that leads to a diluted version of the original tale I fail to see the purpose of that development. The creators (Bunn/Davila) are expected to at the very least enhance and enrich the Conan saga.
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Post by lordyam on Jul 5, 2017 12:07:19 GMT -5
Fair enough but I think my point about the ending (where Conan kisses Octavia until she relents) was a fair one.
A lot of rapes occur because of the "she didn't really mean it" mindset
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Post by wulfhere on Jul 9, 2017 16:18:20 GMT -5
I figured they left it out because "misogyny". As if Conan wouldn't have every right to be very angry. If it had been a Sonja comic, Red would've been slappin' the guy silly and everyone would cheer. Still, this is much better than Wood. You may have a point with the "misogyny" angle, but that's the least of it as far as I'm concerned. The whole scene has been de-fanged. The ferocious, desperate intensity of the original combat as depicted by REH (and preserved by Thomas & Buscema) has been discarded. This I really don't understand. You have an opportunity to adapt a harrowing scene of violent, life-or-death action in a Conan comic in 2017, and produce a lower key, less intense interpretation than we saw in the 1970's, much less the 1930's prose original. It may be unfair to compare modern creators to Thomas & Buscema, but both creative teams are working from REH's story. So I'm with Hun on this. This was the last straw for me. I'm finally done with Dark Horse's efforts to weaken and water down Conan.
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Post by lordyam on Jul 10, 2017 12:29:36 GMT -5
You may have a point with the "misogyny" angle, but that's the least of it as far as I'm concerned. The whole scene has been de-fanged. The ferocious, desperate intensity of the original combat as depicted by REH (and preserved by Thomas & Buscema) has been discarded. This I really don't understand. You have an opportunity to adapt a harrowing scene of violent, life-or-death action in a Conan comic in 2017, and produce a lower key, less intense interpretation than we saw in the 1970's, much less the 1930's prose original. It may be unfair to compare modern creators to Thomas & Buscema, but both creative teams are working from REH's story. So I'm with Hun on this. This was the last straw for me. I'm finally done with Dark Horse's efforts to weaken and water down Conan. Honestly, this is rather childish. If this is really the most weakened and watered down Conan you've see I have to say that you are remarkably fortunate (just read marvel conan between roy thomas and jim owsley). Secondly there's still a lot of power and intensity in their other works and even in this (Khostra is extremely terrifying and badass) Finally, and this is more of a pet theory, I think they were trying a different approach with Conan and Octavia. We know they hook up but the original version was....kinda sleazy (he kisses until she relents, which kinda embodies the "she didn't really mean it when she said no" attitude that a lot of rapists have had). It could be that they want to have a more natural hook up at the end (where octavia doesn't outright shun him and they end up kissing naturally) but in order to do that you kinda have to ditch the overly harsh shouting at her.
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Post by wulfhere on Jul 11, 2017 3:12:42 GMT -5
This was the last straw for me. I'm finally done with Dark Horse's efforts to weaken and water down Conan. Honestly, this is rather childish. If this is really the most weakened and watered down Conan you've see I have to say that you are remarkably fortunate (just read marvel conan between roy thomas and jim owsley). Secondly there's still a lot of power and intensity in their other works and even in this (Khostra is extremely terrifying and badass) Finally, and this is more of a pet theory, I think they were trying a different approach with Conan and Octavia. We know they hook up but the original version was....kinda sleazy (he kisses until she relents, which kinda embodies the "she didn't really mean it when she said no" attitude that a lot of rapists have had). It could be that they want to have a more natural hook up at the end (where octavia doesn't outright shun him and they end up kissing naturally) but in order to do that you kinda have to ditch the overly harsh shouting at her. If you want a PC, cleaned up for modern sensibilities Conan then more power to you. Just saying that it's better than the worst of Marvel's run means nothing. I'm comparing it to the original, and on that score it is severely lacking. I came back to them after the Queen of the Black Coast debacle, and then the atrocious art drove me away again. Now Dark horse has once again screwed things up with this crap. They have used up their chances to win me back. I'm done.
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Post by johnnypt on Jul 11, 2017 6:59:13 GMT -5
I'd actually like somebody ask Cullen, without imputing any motives, why he decided to leave the line out. I have no idea how accessible he is, with the number of books he does, I'd suspect not too much. Based on our previous experiences, it may be the correct assumption it was related to modern sensibilities, but we just don't know. It could be as simple as he felt he didn't have a spare panel for it. I think it was the wrong choice since it was an intense moment. They seem to have dropped the letter pages altogether, it would be a good question to ask. And if their motives were anti-misogynistic, they have felt no need to hide such motives in the past, they'd likely come right out and tell us.
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Post by wulfhere on Jul 11, 2017 9:22:03 GMT -5
I'd actually like somebody ask Cullen, without imputing any motives, why he decided to leave the line out. I have no idea how accessible he is, with the number of books he does, I'd suspect not too much. Based on our previous experiences, it may be the correct assumption it was related to modern sensibilities, but we just don't know. It could be as simple as he felt he didn't have a spare panel for it. I think it was the wrong choice since it was an intense moment. They seem to have dropped the letter pages altogether, it would be a good question to ask. And if their motives were anti-misogynistic, they have felt no need to hide such motives in the past, they'd likely come right out and tell us. Honestly, I no longer feel Dark Horse deserves the benefit of the doubt. Whatever the motives for Conan's different reaction to Octavia the entire sequence is weaker and has less impact. They screwed up again and I'm tired of forgiving their screw ups.
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Post by johnnypt on Jul 11, 2017 10:11:30 GMT -5
Can't argue there, their track record with anything Howard related since 2010 (the Conan, Kull and Solomon Kane series went off the rails all right around the same time) not involving Tim Truman is poor to abysmal, especially on the editorial end. Even if it was an simple adaptation decision, it just happens falls into that questionable area where they don't have a strong hand.
Now last series, Diana did get her tongue ripped out for what I didn't think were essential storytelling reasons and it wasn't what Howard even hinted at. So at the very least, their general theory of handling of women characters is inconsistent. It would've been so much easier to have not gone there in the first place, especially when dealing with a woman PIRATE(!), but they chose to do it and now have to deal with the consequences.
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Post by Erik on Jul 11, 2017 13:35:40 GMT -5
Now last series, Diana did get her tongue ripped out for what I didn't think were essential storytelling reasons and it wasn't what Howard even hinted at. So at the very least, their general theory of handling of women characters is inconsistent. OK, but the big difference here is that Conan isn't responsible for mistreating a woman like that. I think the issue might be that they don't want the main character, the good guy, doing anything like that. Anyway, at least Conan isn't crying and vomiting at the fact that he shot a poor fawn's mother with his bow.
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Post by lordyam on Jul 11, 2017 16:03:32 GMT -5
True.
And I never really got the hatred for avenger. The art isn't the best but storywise it's easily some of the best in years. Van Lente really got the character in many ways and he managed to rehabilitate Janissa into a MUCH more likable character.
The thing with Octavia is this. Conan kisses her till she relents. Objecting to that is NOT pc. A LOT of rapists have used the "she didn't really mean it when she said no" to justify their crimes and kissing someone till they agree could possibly be seen as agreeing to that. Objecting to that isn't necessarily pc so much as pointing out that what flew back then doesn't fly now.
Conan's treatment of women in the DHverse is a little inconsistent.
In the first series we had Janissa (who had a ridiculously sexist backstory; seriously Van Lente cleaning it up and making it less stupid was a welcome addition) and Jiara (who's basically a gold digging whore). We also had Iniri, Princess Ereshka (a rich girl but one who's tough and genuinely cares about the poor) and Iasmini (honestly one of the more underrated love interests Conan's had). Cimmerian had Yasmela (who was rather awesome) and Olivia. All awesome women.
As for Avenger Diana's pretty awesome (the bit where she fights back against Eamon was pretty awesome) and Natala had FAR more characterization here than she EVER did in Howard's run (the man was a good writer but he had flaws).
All things said I don't really mind Slayer. We get buildup to why Conan would risk everything for her, and Octavia shows she can play the game too. That offsets the problems for me.
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Post by johnnypt on Jul 11, 2017 19:14:57 GMT -5
And I never really got the hatred for avenger. The art isn't the best but storywise it's easily some of the best in years. Van Lente really got the character in many ways and he managed to rehabilitate Janissa into a MUCH more likable character. It was the art that kept some people from re-embracing the title, there's simply no doubt about it. It didn't bother me as much as did others, but those that did;t like it flat out didn't buy the book. Had someone with a more traditional style like Sergio taken over at the beginning of Avenger, that might have been a stronger signal they were trying to right the ship immediately. Instead they kept on with the "skinny" experiment for another couple of years and at some point, you just can't get people back, however much the writing has improved.
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Post by johnnypt on Jul 21, 2017 19:18:09 GMT -5
I was just rereading the issue tonight and I think I missed something: The line about Octavia staying where she is is in there, except it's before the battle and it's worded slightly different. And he doesn't look pleased. So it was a matter of reorganization, not omission. I've been trying to insert the picture, but I'm failing as usual: Conan the Slayer page #18
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