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Post by kullagain on Mar 13, 2017 22:46:00 GMT -5
"Far to the south there was a mysterious civilization, unconnected with the Thurian culture, and apparently pre-human in its nature. On the far-eastern shores of the Continent there lived another race, human, but mysterious and non-Thurian, with which the Lemurians from time to time came in contact. They apparently came from a shadowy and nameless continent lying somewhere east of the Lemurian Islands......" (Hyborian Age; paragraph 3)
So what do we know of these two races/cultures? Can we assume the Southern Kingdom was some last abode of the once Thuria-spanning snake men? Or were they even more fantasic, more cosmically alien?
The old peoples that subjugated the disaster fled lemurians were obviously one ancestor group to the Stygians, but who were they before? Did all aspects of their culture survive? What was the race like before they overthew the southern kingom? How did hey overthrow it? What other ancestor groups mixed in with this one to form the sygians of the Hyborian Age?
Let's discuss.
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Post by deuce on Mar 14, 2017 9:35:28 GMT -5
"Far to the south there was a mysterious civilization, unconnected with the Thurian culture, and apparently pre-human in its nature. On the far-eastern shores of the Continent there lived another race, human, but mysterious and non-Thurian, with which the Lemurians from time to time came in contact. They apparently came from a shadowy and nameless continent lying somewhere east of the Lemurian Islands......" (Hyborian Age; paragraph 3) So what do we know of these two races/cultures? Can we assume the Southern Kingdom was some last abode of the once Thuria-spanning snake men? Or were they even more fantasic, more cosmically alien? Hey KA! An interesting topic. The usual term among REH/Hyborian Age researchers for the pre-human kingdom is "Elder Stygia". The Stygians of the Hyborian Age are named after the river and its environs, not the other way around. Plus, there were other regions/kingdoms even further south, so "Southern Kingdom" doesn't work very well. Yes, it seems very likely that the Serpies made up part -- if not the majority -- of the population of Elder Stygia. Are you postulating that there was another ethnic group besides the proto-Stygians of the Far East which contributed to the genetic make-up of the Stygians of Conan's time? Regarding "who were they before", I would suggest you read Marchers of Valhalla to get a good look at their distant cousins back in the old homeland of the "nameless continent". It's startling how similar they are in culture and appearance to the Stygians of Conan's era.
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Post by kullagain on Mar 14, 2017 21:41:59 GMT -5
"Far to the south there was a mysterious civilization, unconnected with the Thurian culture, and apparently pre-human in its nature. On the far-eastern shores of the Continent there lived another race, human, but mysterious and non-Thurian, with which the Lemurians from time to time came in contact. They apparently came from a shadowy and nameless continent lying somewhere east of the Lemurian Islands......" (Hyborian Age; paragraph 3) So what do we know of these two races/cultures? Can we assume the Southern Kingdom was some last abode of the once Thuria-spanning snake men? Or were they even more fantasic, more cosmically alien? Hey KA! An interesting topic. The usual term among REH/Hyborian Age researchers for the pre-human kingdom is "Elder Stygia". The Stygians of the Hyborian Age are named after the river and its environs, not the other way around. Plus, there were other regions/kingdoms even further south, so "Southern Kingdom" doesn't work very well. Yes, it seems very likely that the Serpies made up part -- if not the majority -- of the population of Elder Stygia. Are you postulating that there was another ethnic group besides the proto-Stygians of the Far East which contributed to the genetic make-up of the Stygians of Conan's time? Regarding "who were they before", I would suggest you read Marchers of Valhalla to get a good look at their distant cousins back in the old homeland of the "nameless continent". It's startling how similar they are in culture and appearance to the Stygians of Conan's era. Thanks for responding deuce as always! 1) Serpies and..neighbours? Post Thurian Age? We can all agree that snakes who speak played some presence into Elder Stygia. However I recently have been re-reading QotBC and the chapter 3 opener flashback drove me to pick up my tinfoil hat. The winged humanoids obviously inhabited a city for millenia just south of Stygia, their march to extinction self contained. But this line stood out o me: "Then for the first time humans appeared: dark-skinned, hawkfaced men in copper and leather harness, bearing bows—the warriors of pre-historic Stygia. There were only fifty of them, and they were haggard and gaunt with starvation and prolonged effort, stained and scratched with jungle-wandering, with bloodcrusted bandages that told of fierce fighting. In their minds was a tale of warfare and defeat, and flight before a stronger tribe which drove them ever southward, until they lost themselves in the green ocean of jungle and river." From all Ive read, it's intimated that no humans inhabited the Elder Stygian region until the lemurian slave masters migrated in flight from their rebelling subjects. To me these fifty hyena-bound men sound like some of the first human migrants from the far east. I can't say however that the city of angels was the "mysterious civilization" alluded to in THA, since all references to it seem homogeneous to one race: "The newer kingdom is called Stygia, and remnants of the older nation seemed to have survived, and even been worshipped, after the race as a whole had been destroyed." --THA It's hard to think Elder Stygia had any sapience other than erect reptiles, but I cant help but wonder if the winged ones figured in THA's allusion to the south somehow, and if eastern immigrants did destroy some of the last remains of their mutated kind in addition to the snake men. I have to admit though that I did not finish "The Garden of Fear" and have not read WitN so there may be more to these winged fellows when it comes to this discussion and REH world building as a whole. 2) More than one proto race? My statement was more to avoid assuming that one single proto-race shifted into the Stygian ethnicity. I know REH at times spoke a lot about single races migrating here and there and changing in mold more by environment and circumstance. However, he did figure inter-group mixing into some of his tales, and would even refer to it as seeds for early civilization. "Valley of the Worm" features this remarkably, as the aesir of that story begin branching off from their own tribe to form new tribes with their newly befriended Picts. I feel that feature even parallels the mysterious wanderlust that drives their aimless treks abroad in the preludes of the story. Just as travel can lust for free roam, so too can the will of procreation. Despite my tangent I want to bring it back to my orginal point: I think most archaeological study acknowledges the mixture of cultures and ethnicities playing prominently to define the make up of any group, and I think Howard displayed his agreement with this, and most likely felt that some tribe(s) would find their blood into the Stygian pool. Did you have any thoughts deuce on other proto-Stygians? Proto Shemites or Kushites? It's a stand in for Egypt and ancient North Africa after all. 3) Marchers I do have to read "Marchers", definitely not the most readily available story but I do plan to get the REHUPA collection that contains it, just like I had to do with the Isle of Eons not too long ago .
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