Conan Goes South....and I don't mean to Kush

[lordyam]

When Conan was released by DH in 03 it got a lot of love. It was well acclaimed and admired despite a few missteps, and for 6 years it kept it up. THEN in 2010 things started to change and the later series have not had the same love.

The first crack was Road of Kings; it wasn't BAD but the art wasn't all that good and some of the stories seemed...hollow. The first half was a retread of Conan the thief for instance and Olivia's story seemed lacking.

The second, and biggest crack, was Queen of the Black Coast. There were a FEW elements I liked; the fight sequences were good, and conan's rapport with the crew was well done. However, it is rightfully criticized as the low point of the franchise. Looking at it there are three problems

1.) Lack of pirate adventures: With the exception of the first chapter, final chapter, Argos Deception and to a lesser extent the death arc all the events take place on land and don't really have a lot to do with Pirates. The most they get is an extended series of images in issue 10, but considering that this is....yoou know about pirates this seems like an insult. Adding insult is that Wood name drops Abombi so he could have easily had a few adventures of Conan and the corsairs raiding Khemi. Why he chose not to still boggles the mind

2.) Lack of understanding the character/setting: I've seen people compare wood's conan to a modern teenager. He's skinny, he's overly doubtful......Wood defended his interpretation by saying that Conan was really young at this point.....problem is Conan's STILL Gained experience. Even if you don't buy Dark Horse canon this conan's been around the block; he's had triumphs but loss too (hell he's already seen two women he's loved die at this point, and dealt with the guilt of loosing his men.) He's not unfeeling but he isn't unseasoned either. He also ignores that Conan was already hardened even as a kid as well. He also ignores the geography in order to make his stories work (Conan sets across Pictland to reach home).

Compare Fred Van Lente: Van Lente by his own admission had not read Conan before getting the job. However, he took the time to read the stories and get a feel for the character. Wood didn't even do that as far as I can tell. When you're adapting property you should try to gain a feel. It's why Timothy Zahn's star wars works are more well regarded than Karen Traviss's work for instance (though Wood never compared his detractors to the taliban). More insultingly Wood didn't seem to feel the need to learn to get a feel either. Van Lente had his problems (Somehow the people of Khauran are able to cross Shem and Stygia to reach the oasis) but his geography is still better

3.) Shifting art: Every arc a new artist would come in; this would create confusion and incoherence.

[johnnypt]

The troubling signs to me actually began in the Kull and Solomon Kane series. Having the Kane series start with essentially two fragments may have made chronological sense, but they should have come right out of the box with Red Shadows. By the time they got to it, SK fan Scott Allie was off and Bruce Jones was brought in. Doing both Skulls in the Stars and RS in one mini was not only unnecessary, it short changed both stories with dropped sequences and references. Kill started off on the wrong foot with changing the race of the Picts and giving Kull a wife. The Shadow Kingdom adaptation itself wasn't bad per se, but it had unneeded elements. Then an utterly unnecessary "original" story and a botched Declares Cat adaptation, where the wonderfully ironic last line is left out, left Kull in limbo.

Both of these situations could have been mitigated by a strong hand at editorial. We were truly blessed to have Scott Allie, Phillip Simon and Patrick Thorpe as editors. Once they moved on to other projects and other hands took over...well, let's just say if they intended to maintain the original objective of telling Conan's life as a cohesive story , they never would have told Brian Wood just to concentrate on Queen of the Black Coast and not worry about the other stories. These storytelling decisions, along with the idea of changing art styles, were the main ones I see that helped cause the book to lose focus.

[lordyam]

I'll be honest the full wife thing didn't bother me as much. It's made clear that it's more of a business partnership than marriage; Kull ignores her attempts to seduce him (hell when another guy's offering his daughter up Mull's response is "meh whatever as long as it brings peace") and there is a reason (it makes it easier to swallow why people didn't revolt as much since he had ties). The serpent cult was a lot more dangerous; they do damage control quickly and the snake pope (who seriously has a wicked cool mask) manages to get out of being forced to say the words that reveal him by using deflection. 

Hate Witch I rather liked: we actually learn the bone woman's origins in this tale (she was one of the primordial races that humanity fought) and was pretty badass.

[johnnypt]

It added extra things onto a character without developing his inherent characteristics first, almost as if to go right against how Howard described him. The name Igraine also had too many ties to the modern world. Never was interested in the Bone Woman so it didn't matter to me where she came from. All that might have been OK IF they'd spent some time dealing with Howard's material as it was before doing their own thing. It was four issues that could have been spent adapting some other Kull stories (Tuzun Thune, Skull of Silence), but then again considering how they bungled Cat & Skull maybe it's for the better...oh wait, it let IDW do something like Kull Eternal...

It's entirely possible Conan would've ended up at this sales level if they'd continued the same basic model they'd done since the beginning. But it likely wouldn't have depressed the level of interest of some of the long time fans like it has.

[lordyam]

I liked it because it fleshed her out and added to the verse (showing they were the same universe); and she was pretty fucking monstrous as a villain

I think part of the reason for Igraine is to keep it from being a sausage fest and in fairness she wasn't bad as a character. Again she's a business partner (they're more likely to stay up discussing politics)

[boboldman]

I stopped dead reading Dark Horse Conan with issue 15 of Queen. What finally made me stop was the scene in which Conan gets down on his knees and begs. Even in the worst pastiche, Conan never begs. It's like Wood completely missed the point of the character and story all in one scene. There was plenty else I hated about that series, but that was the last straw.

The thing is, I was really looking forward to that series, especially with the promise of Truman and Giorello on King. I even went back and reread all my Dark Horse Conan comics - even the minis.

I tried Avenger, but the art was so cartoony and inappropriate for the series. I'm sure Slayer is fine. The previews look good, but I just can't afford $3.99 comics anymore - especially when I have s backlog of Marvel Conans to read.

[lordyam]

I think the first crack was Busiek's departure. They had to use some filler stories to give Truman time to catch up, and that was I think the first crack. If they hadn't done those filler stories they could have had the Cimmeria storyline be the final few issues, which serves as a bookend where Conan returns only to realize he still has his heart set on wandering.

From there Cimmerian could have been Black Colossus, Free Companions, Iron Shadows and then the bridge up to Queen of the Black Coast. From there they could just jump into Queen. Road of Kings wasn't awful but it killed a lot of the momentum and was very obviously meant to bridge the gap.

The second flaw was Brian Wood. Van Lente at least read the original Conan stories and the dark horse versions. As such he was able to make his stories in canon (and in fact made Janissa MUCH more likable). Wood didn't do that and didn't really try to make the stories fit. The constantly shifting artists every arc was also a major annoyance.


Funny thing. I calculated the 04-08 run. Conan was one of DH's top earners PERIOD (like the number 2 or number 3). Star Wars of course was the king but Conan was pretty well regarded even as Buffy was added (in July 08, when Cimmerian started Buffy outearned it but Conan was number 2). I suspect that Star War's loss inflicted a massive beating on DH


PS: Buffy also has taken a massive beating over the years. It was 80,000 in July 08, when Cimmerian issue 1 was released. Now it's barely 10,000.

[johnnypt]

Star Wars loss was a huge blow to DH, it really was their cash cow.

The series handled the hand off from Kurt to Tim and Cary to Tomas relatively well in my opinion. Those first 75 issues flowed nicely, the fill ins worked well and were not the intrusive. But the first crack to me was really changing the order of Dale Rippke's chronology. Agree or not, he had a very specific reason for putting Iron Shadows followed Black Colossus followed by Queen. I don't know whose idea it was to flip the stories but it created a story problem that didn't originally exist. That then created the need to make up an extra story, which was Road of Kings and things fell off from there. Creatively they have finally recovered, but for now it looks like it doesn't help much.

[lordyam]

I disagree somewhat. The Free Companions Arc worked and Black Colossus was also pretty good as an introduction.

They needed to have Conan actually MEET sergius for them to be enemies; Black Colossus being first created the opportunity

As I said before Buffy is nowhere near it's peak either. It's barely 10000 whereas when it first came it was far more.

DH in general I think has taken a beating ever since Star Wars returned to marvel

[johnnypt]

It wasn't the individual stories that Tim came up with that were the problem, they were very good. This is all from memory of internet talks with Kurt and some of the DH people: based on the Darkstorm chronology, the general idea was after Nergal, Conan would head to Turan and Hyrkania (and maybe find his helmet!), he gets involved with the Kozaks and Iron Shadows. Then he heads west and Black Colossus, then straight from there to Queen. When you flip the order, you create a problem, one that they "solved" with Road of Kings. What should've been at most a three issue buffer between BC and Queen turned into a year of unnecessary stories. In fact, two issues using the Throne of Aquilonia story and a set up issue would've been just fine, then the three issues of Queen, you get your first QOTBC trade. If you're going to change a long term plan you have to have a very good idea of why you're doing it and frankly I don't think they did.

[lordyam]

Here's an idea; Have the original series be 60 issues. After Yaralet we have Conan fall in with another mercenary company. He humiliates Sergius, who leaves and heads east. Conan than spends about a year or so with the mercenary company before heading east again. Then we get the Iron Shadows stuff, and Conan after getting removed spends some time with a hyrkanian tribe. THEN he heads west, falls in with Amalric and we get BC. Conan leaves Yasmela after saving Khossus from captivity and heads west.

We have three issues and that's that.

[lordyam]

Aug 18, 2017 15:18:42 GMT -5 johnnypt said:

It wasn't the individual stories that Tim came up with that were the problem, they were very good. This is all from memory of internet talks with Kurt and some of the DH people: based on the Darkstorm chronology, the general idea was after Nergal, Conan would head to Turan and Hyrkania (and maybe find his helmet!), he gets involved with the Kozaks and Iron Shadows. Then he heads west and Black Colossus, then straight from there to Queen. When you flip the order, you create a problem, one that they "solved" with Road of Kings. What should've been at most a three issue buffer between BC and Queen turned into a year of unnecessary stories. In fact, two issues using the Throne of Aquilonia story and a set up issue would've been just fine, then the three issues of Queen, you get your first QOTBC trade. If you're going to change a long term plan you have to have a very good idea of why you're doing it and frankly I don't think they did.

I corresponded with Tomas about some details; wonder if Tim would be willing to shed light on the matter. 

And I went back through the sales. Queen had a TWENTY THOUSAND launch. If Road of Kings left it vulnerable Wood's train wreck was what knocked it down. I think that if a better writer had been in play....maybe sales would still be somewhat crappy but not as bad as they are now

[lordyam]

I think that the reason they may have changed the order around for BC and IS was to make it fit within 25 issues. If they did Iron Shadows first they would have had a lot of buildup of him bonding with the mercenaries, some adventures east.....but they'd already spent the first 8 issues on the cimmeria arc (counting issue 0); if that happened they'd have to cut things from BC or rush it.

I think that if they had done a 60 issue run they could have had 58 be the final Yaralet part, do a single issue of Conan joining another group, and than a double sized finale (where Conan pisses off Sergius.)

Than issue 0 of Cimmerian shows a year long time skip. Conan hasn't risen up but he's one of the lads; he's truly come to bond with his friends. They receive the news that they've been let go and go out on their own. We get Iron Shadows around Issue 4 or so, and afterwards we get our first fill in (Akivasha). Then Conan gets set adrift by Olivia and Ivanos since he's kind of doing a rough job as a leader. Conan spends time with a tribe of Hyrkanians, learning the bow and the language. Then he heads back West around issue 15. Then we get the six part adaptation; in the final three Conan arranges to free Khossus than leaves.

After that we have three issues to bridge the gap to Queen of the Black Coast.