howard's knowledge of philosophy

[spiderlime]

if this question appeared in the old forum i must have missed it.

anyhow, my question is: which philosopher or system of ideas from philosophy did howard acknowledge as influential in his work? i assume that the most notable would be that of Nietzsche, or at least so it seems to me as a reader. does howard's conception of man's fate of ultimate doom, his views on civilization etc. also owe something to any philosophical teaching?

[neilnv2]

icionrebelle.blogspot.co.uk/p/blog-page.html

The relationship between the writings of Howard and Nietzsche.

[deuce]

Despite all of the obsessing by people about REH and Nietzsche, Howard only wrote one partial sentence about the man and there were no books by Friedrich in REH's possession.


REH to Tevis Clyde Smith, ca. 20 February 1928 [SL 1 #10]: "Nietzsche never untwined the human from the cosmic..."


The REH Bookshelf: 



web.archive.org/web/20051223144402/http://www.rehupa.com/bookshelf.htm

[neilnv2]

I added a couple of links to "Nietzsche", btw.

There are a couple of connections I see. One is "poetry" vs "law". One is simple, one is very complicated. In "By This Axe I Rule" Kull breaks the law because he is king.

We follow "laws" of nature but (as Alan Moore seems to say in "Blood From the Shoulder of Pallas") the poetry disappears.

[bobbyderie]

Aug 31, 2016 10:18:28 GMT -5 deuce said:

Despite all of the obsessing by people about REH and Nietzsche, Howard only wrote one partial sentence about the man and there were no books by Friedrich in REH's possession.

Well, two - “Drive them off the main deck or die in the attempt. If you miss me off the poop deck I will be in the cabin reading Nietzsche.” (CL2.36) - though that was part of his parodies; and there is an indirect reference in CL2.137: " I do not believe nor do I have any faith in the eventual super-man." - I rather suspect that Howard had read Lovecraft's essay "Nietzscheism and Realism" but I'm not certain of it.

[neilnv2]

On the last one: Appearance is Apollo
Realism is Dionysus
Together it's possible to have poetry. As I see it, laws are urban while realism is more rural. Seasons are rural. Laws are useful but realism can just completely overwhelm them with brute force. This happens in the really bloody The Bacchae by Euripides. REH would have approved of that I believe.

[deuce]

Sept 1, 2016 10:29:17 GMT -5 bobbyderie said:

Aug 31, 2016 10:18:28 GMT -5 deuce said:

Despite all of the obsessing by people about REH and Nietzsche, Howard only wrote one partial sentence about the man and there were no books by Friedrich in REH's possession.

Well, two - “Drive them off the main deck or die in the attempt. If you miss me off the poop deck I will be in the cabin reading Nietzsche.” (CL2.36) - though that was part of his parodies; and there is an indirect reference in CL2.137: " I do not believe nor do I have any faith in the eventual super-man." - I rather suspect that Howard had read Lovecraft's essay "Nietzscheism and Realism" but I'm not certain of it.

I didn't count the first instance because it was a parody and there's not much to show that any especial significance should be attached to the Nietzsche mention.  I do agree that the "super-man" reference probably has something to do with Nietzsche, but he isn't directly mentioned.

HPL's essay can be read here:


www.scribd.com/document/121195542/Nietzscheism-and-Realism

[bobbyderie]

And I enjoyed your philosophical article very much. I am hardly capable of judging it, since I never devoted any study to theology, philosophy or science, but I do not think that anyone could have handled the subject in a more masterly manner. I particularly like the point you made in that truth and necessity not always coinciding, some religion is necessary for the masses. I have always maintained this, myself. As for myself, neither idealism nor materialism appeals to me greatly. That life is chaotic, unjust and apparently blind and without reason or direction any one can see; if the universe leans either way it is toward evil rather than good, as regards life and humanity. That there is any eventual goal for the human race rather than extinction, I do not believe nor do I have any faith in the eventual super-man. Yet the trend of so many materialists to suppress all primitive emotions is against my every instinct. Civilization, no doubt, requires it, and peace of mind demands it, yet for myself I had rather be dead than to live in an emotionless world. The clear white lap of science and the passionless pursuit of knowledge are not enough for me; I must live deeply and listen to the all of the common clay in me, if I am to live at all. Without emotion and instinct I would be a dead, stagnant thing.

A materialistic resignation to unalterable laws is sensible but repellent to me. I will freely admit the necessity and desirability of such a resignation which is no more than recognizing natural laws—if such things be. A man who does not resign himself is like a caged wolf who breaks his heart and beats his brains out against the bars of his cage. Yet I must admit that such a course appeals to me more than that of calm submission. Foredoomed to failure, a man can still snarl and tear. Many and many a time, when one is reeling and dizzy and sick at heart and soul, broken and tossed by the blows of fate or destiny or whatever is is that makes life a hell on earth, one may wish for the ability of philosophic resignation; but with a slight renewal of strength the old blind fighting lust comes surging back and makes him break his fangs on the iron bars anew.

I'm no philosopher, but resignation isnt in my blood. I wish it was. It isn't necessarily a hope to win that makes a man rebel against the infamies of life, vainly. Defeat is the lot of all men, and I come of a breed that never won a war. Men and women too, of my line have fought for hopeless lost causes for a thousand years. Defeat waits for us all, but some of us, worse luck, cant accept it quietly.

—Robert E. Howard to H. P. Lovecraft, Dec 1930, A Means to Freedom: The Letters of H. P. Lovecraft and Robert E. Howard 1.112-113

[neilnv2]

Howard may not have been a practicing classicist, but there's no denying his philosophy shows more in common with Nietzsche, to whom the tension between Dionysus and Apollo is paramount. Apollo - or social order - is never reality, and ancient shrines encrusted by gnarled vines speak of lost glories. Apollo is a vision of perfection and is nothing without the primeval urge of the unconscious, animal state of being.

That's putting Nietzsche in a very Howardian setting of lost cities and the untamed barbarian. Nietzsche was a classicist, but he thought the classical moment was already over when Dionysus, the god of countryside revelry and gay pursuits, was no longer ingrained in the unconscious spirit (about the time of Euripides), and empty Apollonian pursuits of social civil life dominated (ring any bells?)

Dionysus may be gay, but his frolicsome ways depend on the dark goddesses of degeneration and renewal. Of Artemis of the moon, Diana of the hunt and the moon, Proserpine of the underworld and of spring (Ceres). This attitude of death and renewal is the opposite of Apollo. Where I think there is a connection is that Apollo is actually emptiness, and classicism needs the lustiness of Dionysus. The pillars and pediments of our civilization are not the truth. The truth has a melancholy aspect. But melancholy also speaks of spring and revival. There is no true gaiety without darkness, only emptiness.

PS I'm aware of certain complaints my comments are too broadly based. Any other comments are now in "Crusty Curmudgeon". From a classical perspective, you have to know your Nietzsche as he was quite extreme. Ontology or "being" is what we are, which is the unconscious (spirit). Ancient societies such as the Scythians elevated the spirit world of supernatural beings during life.