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Post by thedarkman on Feb 11, 2018 10:21:19 GMT -5
As for monsters/creatures, I hope the producers go with practical effects rather than CGI.
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Post by Aryeh on Feb 11, 2018 10:29:30 GMT -5
Darthgall, let me tell you why I write what I write here, and why I also think what Lordyam wrote in this thread is very valuable. I am afraid that Condal, Sapochnik and Littlefield have something intriguing to say about Conan, but that we will never get to see it, because some studio executive will pull the plug and stop the production of the series even before it began. And he will do that because, first, he will read that piece from 'The Guardian' (here: www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2018/feb/06/conan-the-barbarian-tv-show-amazon ) -- and 'The Guardian' is one of the most read daily newspapers in the world -- and then he will have some second thoughts, after which a forum like the one here might catch his eye, and he will read people's attempts to ignore the elephant in the room (Howard's racism and sexism), and also, bitching about political correctness, feminism, etc. and that will be more then enough for him to say: "I don't need this!", so he will just call the whole thing off. Let me bring your attention to what is going on in the movie world at the moment: Kevin Spacy, a major star, was fired from the Netflix series 'House of Cards' even when his sexual advances towards a minor were still unconfirmed. Then, notice what is going on with Quentin Tarantino at the moment, and how his career is going downwards very fast during just one week. Do you really think that in a world like this there will be a Conan TV series if it is preceded by a an article such as the one from 'The Guardian', and then by posts in which someone is pretending there are no problems with Howard, despite them being that obvious that 'The Guardian' is writing about them? Posts like that will be rightly perceived as attempts to hide the obvious inconvenient truth, and then the studio executive and the like will quickly forget that Obama was also a fan of Conan, that Milius' film was strikingly poetic, that Marvel comics were very entertaining, and instead, he will see Conan fan base as something which is unanimously prepared to tolerate sexism and racism, which will be enough to say: "Let them have their Conan series once KKK makes their TV station." Because of all that, and because I would like to see this series become reality, I think one has to voice one's opinion against such opinions which are either expressing denial or are openly prepared to support Howard there where he was wrong. Again, that is what I see Lordyam and me are doing here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2018 14:29:56 GMT -5
Let us talk about the potential of a series that may, for a change, respect REH's vision of Conan. By Tengri, Erlik and Crom we've waited for 82 years for this moment! Don't waste the opportunity! Amen! All this talk about if Spartacus is leftist or not... irrelevant and not particularly interesting to me. This is a fandom, so let's take this opportunity to demonstrate the good parts of fandom, not the annoying divisive pedantic arguments about the politics. I'm not going to say Conan is apolitical, b/c all art is political in some fashion. But, the previous conan.com forum was admirably apolitical and areligious. We're here to celebrate REH and Conan; let's keep it that way. So Aryeh and Moonlight Shadow, here's your chance to call a truce and "agree to disagree". Instead, let's discuss dream casting for... let's start with Conan, Taurus and Nestor. And which monster/creature/supernatural menace are you most excited about seeing on the screen? And which movie or TV show did something similar, and got it right? MIck. PS - does this post annoy you? Sorry, but I want to find common ground instead of divisive topics. Also, it's my birthday and I'm multiple beers in... I hope you had a fantastic birthday - and, don't forget to have some fermented mare's milk, whenever possible, I know that kinda brew is difficult to find beyond the heartlands of Eurasia. But, it's well worth it
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mojo
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Post by mojo on Feb 11, 2018 18:23:50 GMT -5
Instead, let's discuss dream casting for... let's start with Conan I'd go for actors and actresses used to more pulpy or comic booky fare, who know the extent to which you have to commit even when you're surrounded by green screen or rubber masks or other ridiculous shooting situations. King Conan is easy... Frank Grillo, Temuera Morrison, Mamoa, Manu Bennett. Then a dfferent actor for the earlier time periods, so a younger Conan the Thief could be Iwan Rheon or Richard Madden (GoT) or maybe Jordi Webber (Shannara). A Cimmerian doesn't have to be white, so open it up to all nationalities which provides more possibilities, since they've also got to have some clear charisma, plus a broodiness, plus some level of an intimidation factor, plus physical stature. A favorite story is People of the Black Circle, so casting someone from India like Tina Desai, but less wilting and more bad ass, for Yasmina would be awesome. The Master.. the Roose Bolton actor, or Charles Dance. GoT crossovers all day.
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Post by emerald on Feb 11, 2018 18:44:15 GMT -5
The myopic harping on the elements of racism and sexism in REH’s work exhausts me. Yes, they are blemishes on his overall body of work and make a small handful of his stories uncomfortable reading for modern eyes.
But what of the vast bulk of his work? Do these issues somehow obscure every noteworthy element of this author’s achievement? Does that fact that racism can be found in some of his tales somehow compromise every diverse element of his amazing creativity?
It’s like you’re listening to a huge orchestra playing soaring melodies and all you can hear is that the second violas were out of tune. “Man, the brass section was a powerhouse!” “The second violas were out of tune in the first movement.”
“Did you catch that beautiful trumpet solo?” “The second violas were out of tune in the first movement.”
“How about when the flute section had that swift counterpoint with the percussion?” “The second violas were out of tune in the first movement.”
“How about when the composer invented tropes that have lived on in the culture since he pulled them out of his mind and put them on paper, and how they’re going to live on long after we’re all dust and forgotten?” “The second violas were out of tune in the first movement.”
I can’t stand it.
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Post by johnnypt on Feb 11, 2018 18:54:55 GMT -5
The myopic harping on the elements of racism and sexism in REH’s work exhausts me. Yes, they are blemishes on his overall body of work and make a small handful of his stories uncomfortable reading for modern eyes. But what of the vast bulk of his work? Do these issues somehow obscure every noteworthy element of this author’s achievement? Does that fact that racism can be found in some of his tales somehow compromise every diverse element of his amazing creativity? It’s like you’re listening to a huge orchestra playing soaring melodies and all you can hear is that the second violas were out of tune. “Man, the brass section was a powerhouse!” “The second violas were out of tune in the first movement.” “Did you catch that beautiful trumpet solo?” “The second violas were out of tune in the first movement.” “How about when the flute section had that swift counterpoint with the percussion?” “The second violas were out of tune in the first movement.” “How about when the composer invented tropes that have lived on in the culture since he pulled them out of his mind and put them on paper, and how they’re going to live on long after we’re all dust and forgotten?” “The second violas were out of tune in the first movement.” I can’t stand it. That is now going to be my go to answer for anything!
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Post by lordyam on Feb 11, 2018 18:59:08 GMT -5
The myopic harping on the elements of racism and sexism in REH’s work exhausts me. Yes, they are blemishes on his overall body of work and make a small handful of his stories uncomfortable reading for modern eyes. But what of the vast bulk of his work? Do these issues somehow obscure every noteworthy element of this author’s achievement? Does that fact that racism can be found in some of his tales somehow compromise every diverse element of his amazing creativity? It’s like you’re listening to a huge orchestra playing soaring melodies and all you can hear is that the second violas were out of tune. “Man, the brass section was a powerhouse!” “The second violas were out of tune in the first movement.” “Did you catch that beautiful trumpet solo?” “The second violas were out of tune in the first movement.” “How about when the flute section had that swift counterpoint with the percussion?” “The second violas were out of tune in the first movement.” “How about when the composer invented tropes that have lived on in the culture since he pulled them out of his mind and put them on paper, and how they’re going to live on long after we’re all dust and forgotten?” “The second violas were out of tune in the first movement.” I can’t stand it. I can understand that (dear god I find the likes of Ferretbrain annoying and irritating) but at the same time I've seen WAY too many purists try to avoid facing the blemishes (Fernando to his credit DID try to address some but also tried to hold on to SOME even when it wasn't really needed; does Yasmina REALLY need to be white skinned for instance?). Also, Aryeh's point was that in this day and age people are trying to be more sensitive about issues that they never really addressed (case in point Harvey Weinstein). If people just say "oh that wasn't an issue" or "oh people are being too sensitive" it CAN potentially hurt the series. Also, Aryeh made the point that we shouldn't ignore the good parts of Howard (his prose, his action, his stories). But we can't just sweep the bad stuff under the rug. Dark Horse and to a lesser extent Marvel work BECAUSE they capture the spirit of Howard's work while kicking the racism and sexism to the curb for the most part (while having it be that Stygia was once relatively nice is against Howard it DOES add more nuance to a race that was just "always chaotic evil" in the books). Hell one of the last dark horse storylines had a full blown interracial relationship between a blonde girl and a black guy that was played straight. It wasn't preachy and in fact it was rather refreshing.
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Post by Aryeh on Feb 11, 2018 20:57:54 GMT -5
The myopic harping on the elements of racism and sexism in REH’s work exhausts me. Yes, they are blemishes on his overall body of work and make a small handful of his stories uncomfortable reading for modern eyes. But what of the vast bulk of his work? Do these issues somehow obscure every noteworthy element of this author’s achievement? Does that fact that racism can be found in some of his tales somehow compromise every diverse element of his amazing creativity? It’s like you’re listening to a huge orchestra playing soaring melodies and all you can hear is that the second violas were out of tune. “Man, the brass section was a powerhouse!” “The second violas were out of tune in the first movement.” “Did you catch that beautiful trumpet solo?” “The second violas were out of tune in the first movement.” “How about when the flute section had that swift counterpoint with the percussion?” “The second violas were out of tune in the first movement.” “How about when the composer invented tropes that have lived on in the culture since he pulled them out of his mind and put them on paper, and how they’re going to live on long after we’re all dust and forgotten?” “The second violas were out of tune in the first movement.” I can’t stand it. Very funny. And inspiring, too. So inspiring I had to make my own version. Let's see how you like it when we apply this same form you presented to that we were actually talking about here . "Man, the brass section was a powerhouse!" "Yes, but the orchestra played in Auschwitz, and played so that the screams of the dying are muted by the sound of the orchestra. But, how come people found it acceptable that one whole population is being systematically murdered? It was relatively easy: there was propaganda. Namely, the target of the committed destruction were Jews, and they were shown as "greedy", "merciless", as those who are "plotting in secret in order to destabilize the government", etc. This kind of propaganda, which lead to the murder of six million Jews, however, is not specific just for the Nazis: it can be found, among other examples, also in the works of Robert E. Howard, who portrayed his Shemite (Semitic) characters the same way: as a "merciless race", as a "greedy race". ...Even Belit, who was supposed to be a sympathetic character, is made into someone who meets her own doom because of her greed for jewels. And then -- as if this was not enough -- she is even portrayed as someone who finds her redemption in the afterlife, and this motif, the afterlife, is common for proto-Christian beliefs, but goes against the Judaic beliefs, so in this way she was posthumously made into a proto-Christian; she is, in a way, being forcefully Christianized. Then, Constantinus, a character from another Howard's story, we are told, is from Koth, but is in command of the Shemite archers, and also, is himself portrayed as Semitic conniving type. All this, and more, can be found in Howard's writings, and practically the same kind of portrayal can be found, for example, in a Nazi propaganda film such as "Ewige Jude"..." "Did you catch that beautiful trumpet solo?" "Yes, but the orchestra played in Auschwitz..." I invite others to make their version, but now with the sexist, and with the racist things that are there, in Howard's writings. Just so that someone like Emerald starts appreciating the gravity of the situation. One cannot just dismiss something like this, simply because it is, at the same time, something which has been repeated often. It has and will be repeated precisely because people refuse to hear, and because people like to pretend "it's nothing" -- "Racism? Sexism? Antisemitism? It's nothing..." These are serious things, that have historic consequences, and one is not allowed to just simply dismiss them. Oh, and Emerald, by the way, I was inspired to write about antisemitism because you got a profile pic of Wyatt Earp. His wife was Josephine Marcus, a Jewish girl. According to some historians, Wyatt had troubles because of her with Doc Holliday, who was known to be an anti-Semite. Wyatt himself is buried in a Jewish cemetery.
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Post by thedarkman on Feb 11, 2018 21:26:59 GMT -5
Personally, I don’t see all that much racism in the REH Conan tales. If you look hard enough, you can find it anywhere, but it isn’t a key factor in the stories. I read the tales for fantastic adventure, exotic lands, bloody combat and horrific monstrosities. And sexy women; sexist yes, but I’m 52, so it’s not my fault. Stick to the basics, avoid any obvious racism and this series will deliver. Hopefully it’ll be big, brash, bold and bloody. Panty waist viewers can look away if it offends their delicate sensibilities.
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Post by emerald on Feb 11, 2018 22:04:41 GMT -5
Very funny. And inspiring, too. So inspiring I had to make my own version. Let's see how you like it when we apply this same form you presented to that we were actually talking about here . "Man, the brass section was a powerhouse!" "Yes, but the orchestra played in Auschwitz, and played so that the screams of the dying are muted by the sound of the orchestra. But, how come people found it acceptable that one whole population is being systematically murdered? It was relatively easy: there was propaganda. Namely, the target of the committed destruction were Jews, and they were shown as "greedy", "merciless", as those who are "plotting in secret in order to destabilize the government", etc. This kind of propaganda, which lead to the murder of six million Jews, however, is not specific just for the Nazis: it can be found, among other examples, also in the works of Robert E. Howard, who portrayed his Shemite (Semitic) characters the same way: as a "merciless race", as a "greedy race". ...Even Belit, who was supposed to be a sympathetic character, is made into someone who meets her own doom because of her greed for jewels. And then -- as if this was not enough -- she is even portrayed as someone who finds her redemption in the afterlife, and this motif, the afterlife, is common for proto-Christian beliefs, but goes against the Judaic beliefs, so in this way she was posthumously made into a proto-Christian; she is, in a way, being forcefully Christianized. Then, Constantinus, a character from another Howard's story, we are told, is from Koth, but is in command of the Shemite archers, and also, is himself portrayed as Semitic conniving type. All this, and more, can be found in Howard's writings, and practically the same kind of portrayal can be found, for example, in a Nazi propaganda film such as "Ewige Jude"..." "Did you catch that beautiful trumpet solo?" "Yes, but the orchestra played in Auschwitz..." I invite others to make their version, but now with the sexist, and with the racist things that are there, in Howard's writings. Just so that someone like Emerald starts appreciating the gravity of the situation. One cannot just dismiss something like this, simply because it is, at the same time, something which has been repeated often. It has and will be repeated precisely because people refuse to hear, and because people like to pretend "it's nothing" -- "Racism? Sexism? Antisemitism? It's nothing..." These are serious things, that have historic consequences, and one is not allowed to just simply dismiss them. Oh, and Emerald, by the way, I was inspired to write about antisemitism because you got a profile pic of Wyatt Earp. His wife was Josephine Marcus, a Jewish girl. According to some historians, Wyatt had troubles because of her with Doc Holliday, who was known to be an anti-Semite. Wyatt himself is buried in a Jewish cemetery. Well now. “See how I like it”? “Just so that someone like Emerald starts appreciating the gravity of the situation.”? From the absolutist vehemence of your response I fear you won’t be able to hear me, but at no point did I dismiss concerns about racism. I simply regretted that they, a dark spot on a brilliant tapestry of prose, seemed to draw so much attention that Howard’s artistic accomplishment was being disregarded. I acknowledge that the second violas were out of tune. This does indeed make the concert less than perfect. I wish it were otherwise and would not pretend that it was. But to ignore the beauty and power of the rest of the orchestra’s performance is to cheat both the artist and yourself.
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Post by Aryeh on Feb 11, 2018 22:35:37 GMT -5
I acknowledge that the second violas were out of tune. This does indeed make the concert less than perfect. I wish it were otherwise and would not pretend that it was. But to ignore the beauty and power of the rest of the orchestra’s performance is to cheat both the artist and yourself. For the record: I certainly wasn't trying to ignore the beauty, the poetics, the richness of Howard's vision -- on the contrary. See my previous posts, and also see Lordyam's previous posts (and in his last post on this page, he summed up the position I believe he and I share here, and that is certainly not a position that advocates ignorance -- of anything).
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Post by Char-Vell on Feb 11, 2018 23:18:16 GMT -5
Amen! All this talk about if Spartacus is leftist or not... irrelevant and not particularly interesting to me. This is a fandom, so let's take this opportunity to demonstrate the good parts of fandom, not the annoying divisive pedantic arguments about the politics. I'm not going to say Conan is apolitical, b/c all art is political in some fashion. But, the previous conan.com forum was admirably apolitical and areligious. We're here to celebrate REH and Conan; let's keep it that way. So Aryeh and Moonlight Shadow, here's your chance to call a truce and "agree to disagree". Instead, let's discuss dream casting for... let's start with Conan, Taurus and Nestor. And which monster/creature/supernatural menace are you most excited about seeing on the screen? And which movie or TV show did something similar, and got it right? MIck. PS - does this post annoy you? Sorry, but I want to find common ground instead of divisive topics. Also, it's my birthday and I'm multiple beers in... I would still like to see Momoa cast as Conan, I think he's an excellent actor and has not just the physique but the formidable presence vital to the character. I think you'll likely see some casting similar to Game of Thrones if they are serious about the story with good character actors playing the important roles. Sean Bean for Nestor would be my choice. Vincent Donofrio for Taurus. Supernatural menaces? All of them! I would most enjoy seeing Thog in all his slithering, shadowy, tentacled, mind numbing horror. Thak, we must have Thak!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2018 2:21:03 GMT -5
This is how Conan should be in the forthcoming series:
Robert E Howard describes Conan.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2018 4:49:11 GMT -5
O.K let's see, some interesting posts concerning the new Conan TV series. I kinda understand the concerns of Aryeh, but I'm pretty certain, and if you're reading this, I know you're even more certain, that they will not employ hook-nosed actors to represent the sons of Shem, that would be silly. The endless loop of discussing racism found in the Conan yarns is getting a little tiresome. Looking ahead, hopefully, we also have to remember the creative process is entirely different in this medium. I for one do not expect the new series to adapt all of the stories exactly as REH wrote them. The Hyborian Age is as diverse a Fantasy World as you're gonna get, so celebrate the possibilities of the new series. Nevertheless, below I have included some ideas for the series - including various yarns that could prove problematic. 1. The Vale of Lost Women: This is not the greatest story and I'd drop it completely for obvious reasons. 2. The Frost-Giant's Daughter: Some maybe concerned about the intent of Conan in this yarn, this one I'd also drop completely. I have no problem with Conan in this yarn, whatever his reasoning for his reactions (lust/spell of Atali/ altered consciousness) in this short story I can live with it, and I think really does make the character very realistic. The main reason I'd drop this part of Conan's life is that there's been a lot of exposure in recent years on the TV with Viking themed content. The series should start with the Tower of the Elephant. Forget the grim, cold dark north, the restless young Conan wanted to see the exotic cities in the south and we should join him there and forget the north, at least initially. 3. Xuthal of the Dusk (The Slithering Shadow): I have no problem with REH's portrayal of Natala, she's a product of Hyborian Age civilization, they're cruel, merciless and that is not detrimental to the attributes of Conan, but the hypocrisy of civilization. This should be a faithful adaptation, I agree with Zarono, I wanna see Thog 4. The Man-Eaters of Zamboula (Shadows in Zamboula):This is worth keeping in the series, dialogue can always be changed. 5. A Witch Shall Be Born:See above and there's the iconic crucifixion, hopefully without Subotay. This has gotta be adapted. Fragments/Unfinished Conan stories: Should all be dropped, this stuff has been completed/expanded by the likes of DeCamp, Marvel and Dark Horse for decades now - it's boring. The creators on this new series should CREATE SOMETHING NEW AND EXCITING. Oh.. and I almost forgot, I agree with Char-Vell. Thak, we must have Thak!
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Post by johnnypt on Feb 12, 2018 7:52:46 GMT -5
As far as what to adapt and what to set aside:
All WT stories-all 17 should be done in some form. Tweak it where you need to.
FGD-Could be done as a later flashback included in another episode. About the "issue", just have Conan catch her after almost being killed by her brothers without saying what he'll do. Guy's got a right to be ticked off after that. Problem solved.
GitB-Again, work it into another story, not enough happens for a full episode
VoLW-Fine to drop if they can't come up with a way to mitigate its issues
Black Stranger-Should be done
Hall of the Dead/Nestor synopsis-It's a cool enough idea and there's enough to work with as the bridge between Tower and Rogues, I'd do it
Hand of Nergal/Yaralet fragment-If they need an episode to get Conan from one place to the next during his early mercenary phase
Snout in the Dark/Shumballah-Eh, ambivalent about it. If they decide not to do it, I wouldn't be upset
Tombalku-They're in a box here: If they do it not quite right, they'll get the racism charge. If they change it to make it any kingdom in trouble, they'll get criticized for changing it. Whether they do it chronologically or skip around, save it for later and see how Queen of the Black Coast goes.
Wolves Beyond the Border-Mine it for information, but no need to do it.
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