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Post by theironshadow on Aug 12, 2019 13:03:40 GMT -5
It's a ruddier look that they'll show, yes. Cimmerians being brown skinned and narrow skulled, they are clearly not straightforward Scots or Irish. However, it's now understood that, before the Mediterranean farmers brought lighter skin North, Mesolithic Europeans had blue eyes and dark skin, just as Robert Howard imagined of the Cimmerians. The idea that the Cimmerians were in any way dark skinned strikes me in my 'world view' of Hyboria as being incongruous; i've always thought of Conan as a true celt, being based on the concept of the black Irish. Conan should stick out like a sore thumb in any place he is in, his height being another matter. No-one should mistake him for a native of southern Hyboria, and dark skinned, jet black hair? No. Too hispanic which he definately should NOT look!
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ramos
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Post by ramos on Aug 12, 2019 14:46:22 GMT -5
It's a ruddier look that they'll show, yes. Cimmerians being brown skinned and narrow skulled, they are clearly not straightforward Scots or Irish. However, it's now understood that, before the Mediterranean farmers brought lighter skin North, Mesolithic Europeans had blue eyes and dark skin, just as Robert Howard imagined of the Cimmerians. The idea that the Cimmerians were in any way dark skinned strikes me in my 'world view' of Hyboria as being incongruous; i've always thought of Conan as a true celt, being based on the concept of the black Irish. Conan should stick out like a sore thumb in any place he is in, his height being another matter. No-one should mistake him for a native of southern Hyboria, and dark skinned, jet black hair? No. Too hispanic which he definately should NOT look! I think Howard mentioned that Conan's bronzed skin is more from constant exposure to the sun rather than genetics because he is outlaw after all with scars to make him rough and dangerous looking.
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Post by sorcerer on Aug 12, 2019 19:58:30 GMT -5
No. Check Hun's earlier post in this thread:
"Cimmerians... They were black haired, and grey or blue eyed. They were dolichocephalic, and dark skinned, though not so dark as either the Zingarans, Zamorians or Picts"
Of course, "dark skinned" is relative, but by that description I'd say a typical Cimmerian would have had at least the olive tone of a Spaniard, and perhaps even the light brown coloring of a Persian.
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ramos
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Post by ramos on Aug 13, 2019 11:02:57 GMT -5
No. Check Hun's earlier post in this thread: "Cimmerians... They were black haired, and grey or blue eyed. They were dolichocephalic, and dark skinned, though not so dark as either the Zingarans, Zamorians or Picts" Of course, "dark skinned" is relative, but by that description I'd say a typical Cimmerian would have had at least the olive tone of a Spaniard, and perhaps even the light brown coloring of a Persian. Yes, I agree
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Post by sorcerer on Aug 14, 2019 10:35:09 GMT -5
It hasn't been addressed in this thread, and it's as good a supposition as any. And while it doesn't really match evolutionary principles, Howard was a writer, not a biologist, so that may very well have been his actual intent.
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Post by kemp on Feb 14, 2020 4:58:22 GMT -5
Conan being six feet tall at fifteen would have probably meant that he reached 6’3” or 6’4” in his late teens. As for skin complexion, maybe similar to real world 'black Celts' such as Tom Jones and Sean Connery.
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Post by deuce on Feb 16, 2020 17:56:04 GMT -5
No. Check Hun's earlier post in this thread: "Cimmerians... They were black haired, and grey or blue eyed. They were dolichocephalic, and dark skinned, though not so dark as either the Zingarans, Zamorians or Picts" Of course, "dark skinned" is relative, but by that description I'd say a typical Cimmerian would have had at least the olive tone of a Spaniard, and perhaps even the light brown coloring of a Persian. REH, as Lovecraft noted, "put himself into everything he wrote". Howard was fairly dark complected/well-tanned, saying in one of his letters that he had been mistaken for a Mexican more than once. He also had blue eyes--as did his mother. His father, Mordecai--whom REH considered to be of, at least, half-Irish heritage--was black-haired and grey-eyed. REH was also a major Hibernophile and wrote of his "black Milesian"--ie, "Black Irish"--blood. One definition of the "Black Irish"--there are many and some of them are contradictory--is that it's a term "commonly used to describe people of Irish origin who have dark features, black hair, a dark complexion and dark eyes." I have to say, I have no idea what the difference between "dark features" and "dark complexion" might be. The whole "Spanish Armada" thing is crap. There were plenty of Gaelic Irish noted for millennia with some combination of dark hair/complexion/eyes. Cuchullain was one such, as was Naoise, whom Deirdre ran away with. Once again, this comes back to Robert E. Howard. He considered himself to be of primarily Irish Gaelic stock. He had black hair, blue eyes and tanned easily to a bronze color. One can also see this Howardian concept in action with the Francis X. Gordon/El Borak and Kirby O'Donnell yarns. The former was "Scotch-Irish" and the other was (presumably) fairly pure Irish Gaelic. Both impersonated Kurds, who are related to the Medes and Persians--ie, of Indo-European descent, as REH well knew. There are still light-eyed/light-haired/light-complected Kurds to this day. Another example is Terrence "Black" Vulmea, the only Howardian protagonist directly derived from Conan the Cimmerian. A pure Irish Gael from Connacht--apparently, REH's favorite Irish province--REH's description of Vulmea matches that of Conan in The Black Stranger almost exactly. So does that of the half-Gaelic Cormac Fitzgeoffrey and "Conan of Eire-ann" in The People of the Dark. All of this flailing around, looking at outside sources, when REH tells you everything you need to know, is pointless and irrelevant. REH had his own vision of Cimmerians and their pure-blooded descendants, the Gaels. An example of the "Black Irish" phenotype apparently subscribed to by REH would be Gabriel Byrne. Byrne isn't a giant bad-ass, but his coloring matches up quite well with what REH describes. Black-haired, blue-eyed and possessing a complexion that would probably tan up just fine in the Texan sun. I saw plenty like him on my three visits to Ireland. I grew up knowing a man from County Mayo, a 6'1" ex-boxer, with the same phenotype. He tanned up fairly bronzey in the "outland suns" of Kansas and he probably would've tanned up more if he'd had a job that kept him outdoors more of the time.
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Post by theironshadow on Feb 17, 2020 18:04:48 GMT -5
If we increase Conan's height and weight to that of being 6'4" and about 280Lbs with his full frame, that means he was rocking a 50" chest, 60Lbs heavier than Jason Momoa, a chest at least 4 inches bigger! Gentlemen, our giant Cimmerian was massive indeed, particularly in the upper body area (i'm 6'2" and have a 42 inch chest. My brother is 6'5" has a 46" chest), Conan would have been 4 inches bigger than that, genuinely massive of frame. Momoa was 240Lbs when he filmed Conan, to add a further 40lbs of muscle to Conan would seriously expand his physique. Trying to find a Hollywood look-a-like for similar frame, even Dwayne Johnson is shy of a full 2 Stone in The Scorpion King, clocking in at 6'3" and 250lbs. I'd say personally that Johnson's height/weight is closer to how i imagine Conan that Momoa, though it may come across as apples and oranges...
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Post by paulliddle on Feb 18, 2020 6:07:20 GMT -5
To get back to the dark skinned blue eyed Cimmerians, have a look at Cheddar Man. Found in Britain from 10,000 years ago with very dark skin and blue or green eyes. The full article is here link
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Post by kemp on Feb 20, 2020 8:34:09 GMT -5
To get back to the dark skinned blue eyed Cimmerians, have a look at Cheddar Man. Found in Britain from 10,000 years ago with very dark skin and blue or green eyes. The full article is here linkWestern Europe was home to various groups of people, some dark, but the above imagined reconstruction as touted by one set of scientists, looks too sub saharan, not what I would call 'black Irish' or 'black Celt', and I wonder if they are not motivated by other factors. Blue/green eyed and a dark ruddy complexion, that may be right for much of the mesolithic population in the Atlantic seaboard, but not as dark as that bust would have you believe.
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Post by paulliddle on Feb 20, 2020 17:20:46 GMT -5
Here's a quote from the article " 'Until recently it was always assumed that humans quickly adapted to have paler skin after entering Europe about 45,000 years ago,' says Tom. 'Pale skin is better at absorbing UV light and helps humans avoid vitamin D deficiency in climates with less sunlight.' However, Cheddar Man has the genetic markers of skin pigmentation usually associated with sub-Saharan Africa.
This discovery is consistent with a number of other Mesolithic human remains discovered throughout Europe".
The scientists involved reckon there is 76% chance he would be so dark skinned. Some have queried this though, I think it ruffled a few feathers. Anyway he was five foot six and in his twenties when he died.
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Post by Von K on Feb 20, 2020 18:32:38 GMT -5
Given that REH had no access to the recent Cheddar Man information (I'll leave the scientist duking it out as to accuracy) Deuce's answer is invariably correct with regards to that aspect of REH's Cimmerians.
For Conan's height and build I usually imagine 6'3" and around 250lbs.
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Post by theironshadow on Feb 21, 2020 7:27:08 GMT -5
Given that REH had no access to the recent Cheddar Man information (I'll leave the scientist duking it out as to accuracy) Deuce's answer is invariably correct with regards to that aspect of REH's Cimmerians. For Conan's height and build I usually imagine 6'3" and around 250lbs. So basically the same physique that Dwayne Johnson had in 'The Scorpion King' from 2002? That seems reasonable.
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Post by Von K on Feb 21, 2020 13:22:16 GMT -5
Given that REH had no access to the recent Cheddar Man information (I'll leave the scientist duking it out as to accuracy) Deuce's answer is invariably correct with regards to that aspect of REH's Cimmerians. For Conan's height and build I usually imagine 6'3" and around 250lbs. So basically the same physique that Dwayne Johnson had in 'The Scorpion King' from 2002? That seems reasonable. In terms of height and weight yes. Kind of right in between yourself and your brother I guess. Physique might be a different issue though. That’s where Frazetta really captured the essence of REH’s Conan on canvass. He got the corded musculature, dynamism and grim battle-scarred demeanour down to a T in that regard. Even when he painted Conan standing and leaning on his sword you got a sense of the coiled power seething through that iron frame. Then there’s the question of genetic constitution which can't be captured visually. I think much more flexibility can be applied when it comes to discussing actors to portray Conan. REH probably had Jack Dempsey in mind as part of what went into the creation of Conan, as one element of the prizefighter part. Dempsey was 6’ tall and 180lbs. So anything from that through Momoa up to a Clint Walker-ian 6’6”. Jack Palance could have fit the bill in his day. And I tend to agree with HP when he posted on his twitter feed about the possibility of Henry Cavil (who would also make a good John Carter in my view, one closer to Whelan’s version anyhow). It all depends on the combination of acting skills, athleticism, and physical appearance.
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kele
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Post by kele on Apr 29, 2020 22:14:12 GMT -5
Hi. First post. I had assumed he was around 6'5 based on Tower of the Elephant describing his teen height as 6 feet. Also by the way John Buscema depicted Conan-he was big by Marvel character standards, though I think REH was thinking around 6'2 due to his description of him being "panther-like" and his comments on the early pulp illustrations where he looked nothing like the 1960s Conan.
The peplum actor Gordon Mitchell was the spitting image of Buscema's Conan in the face--I would bet money he was the reference model Buscema had in front of him when designing the character (he did watch Italian peplum films). But the Buscema face was kind of Neanderthal or acromegaly-influenced. He didn't have a Western European look.
I think Mike "Tarzan" Henry in the 1960s was pretty close to the ideal REH Conan.
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