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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2020 14:23:38 GMT -5
I'm not convinced that the success of the Witcher will make things any easier for a Conan series to become a reality. I think it's more likely to work the opposite way with most studios rolling their eyes as soon as they hear the name of Conan. Thanks to a number of reasons, not just the material, there's also the history of continual mis-representation of the character on screen, not to mention the abysmal failure of Conan 2011.
To date, Fredrik Malmberg/Pathfinder Media have failed miserably when it comes to getting any of the great characters of REH on screen, whether as a movie, an animation or TV series.
For Conan to get on screen the pitch has to be 20 times better than the pitch for the Witcher. It has to be done right - it's obvious something was missing with Ryan Condal's Conan, as far as Amazon is concerned anyway. What has Malmberg learned from the experience? I dunno. But for now, I'll not wait and see - life's too short.
I've watched 4 episodes of the Witcher, some bits remind me of Solomon Kane others of Conan. That'll have to do, for now.
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Post by Jason Aiken on Jan 6, 2020 16:54:50 GMT -5
The Witcher is what the Conan Amazon series could have been. I agree with Hun, they would be late to the party now and the Witcher is the hot s&s brand, its value is at an all time high. The Cimmerian's conversely has never been lower.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2020 19:04:36 GMT -5
The Witcher is what the Conan Amazon series could have been. I agree with Hun, they would be late to the party now and the Witcher is the hot s&s brand, its value is at an all time high. The Cimmerian's conversely has never been lower. But the witcher was only discovered because of the most recent game being such a success. The brand was strengthened through other media before becoming feasible for a show. Conan could easily be built up this way as well, by exposing him to the population at large in other media, but they would need to be careful with who they allow to use the brand. The games that have come out the last few years have been average at best and have done the character no favours.
Basically it would require a carefully curated approach to the character over many years to make him popular rather than the "allow everyone who can pay" to use Conan.
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Post by theironshadow on Jan 18, 2020 7:34:27 GMT -5
The Witcher is what the Conan Amazon series could have been. I agree with Hun, they would be late to the party now and the Witcher is the hot s&s brand, its value is at an all time high. The Cimmerian's conversely has never been lower. But the witcher was only discovered because of the most recent game being such a success. The brand was strengthened through other media before becoming feasible for a show. Conan could easily be built up this way as well, by exposing him to the population at large in other media, but they would need to be careful with who they allow to use the brand. The games that have come out the last few years have been average at best and have done the character no favours.
Basically it would require a carefully curated approach to the character over many years to make him popular rather than the "allow everyone who can pay" to use Conan.
That is exactly what needs to happen, or for a great sword and sorcery film to come out that features Conan as protagonist. The first Hellboy film was a success because of Del Toro's Blade 2 film. Virtually no-one had heard of Mignola's character, but the film made a super-solid $60m at the US box office. Doing the same with Conan is the best alternative. Get a named director behind the film, and sell the director's clout and then the film and watch Conan be introduced to an all-new audience.
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Post by Von K on Jan 21, 2020 2:35:53 GMT -5
The Streaming Wars are going on at present. The networks are always looking for good content. Add that to an upsurge in interest in Fantasy from the networks and Conan being back at Marvel - I'd say Conan and Kane are more marketable now than back when Ryan was pitching his series to Amazon. Ryan himself has thankfully landed squarely on his feet as joint showrunner and writer for House of the Dragon, HBO's GoT prequel.
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Post by theironshadow on Jan 21, 2020 6:27:31 GMT -5
It's been suggested that Condal's pitch to Amazon was poor, and thus the reason that the series didn't go ahead; i disagree. The deal was seemingly 90% done, then a new Amazon Executive was hired, noting that the Tolkien-based mega series was in the pipeline that Amazon didn't need a competing franchise. HBO has the GoT prequel, Netflix The Witcher, Amazon The Second Age, and at this point, Disney need to get with it and to develop Conan for their streaming service. Disney need to ditch the hubris and get on the television literary fantasy band-wagon.
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Post by Aryeh on Jan 21, 2020 15:20:02 GMT -5
It's been suggested that Condal's pitch to Amazon was poor, and thus the reason that the series didn't go ahead; i disagree. The deal was seemingly 90% done, then a new Amazon Executive was hired, noting that the Tolkien-based mega series was in the pipeline that Amazon didn't need a competing franchise. HBO has the GoT prequel, Netflix The Witcher, Amazon The Second Age, and at this point, Disney need to get with it and to develop Conan for their streaming service. Disney need to ditch the hubris and get on the television literary fantasy band-wagon.
The new head of the Amazon studios was brought in order to change company's image after the sex-related scandal. That is when Condal's Conan was last heard of. Fill in the dots (take into account the present political climate, the desired image Amazon wants to create, then the reputation of REH's Conan). Condal's Conan cancellation had nothing to do with Hobbits -- Hobbits and Conan by definition target different audiences.
Here is one of numerous reports explaining when and how Jennifer Salke became the head of the Amazon studios.
What Conan needs in order to become a successful franchise today is a very clear, very defined approach, which however will not clash with the present political climate. I can for example see how the Serpent War approach could work also in films today, since it is more fantasy/horror orientated, so Conan is taken out of the childish white male power fantasy which inhabits the neighborhood of the Incel ideology and instead is pushed towards something else.
But all this with Amazon is nothing new, and it is really the same thing that has been around for ages, ever since Robert Bloch said he was bored of Conan-as-male-childish-fantasy. But this is how Stephen King in his Danse Macabre articulated the whole thing and here is how defended Conan:
To use King's words, we need a film author who will concentrate on precisely that what was in REH's stories "glowing with the fierce and eldritch light of his frenzied intensity". This "glow" is all about the thrill and the surreal, about the anxiety-inducing effects of the fantastic, and not about the adolescent wishful thinking.
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Post by theironshadow on Jan 22, 2020 7:02:12 GMT -5
Aryeh, i'm not going to believe that Conan At Amazon was canned because Jennifer Salke didn't want a series on her hands about a walking testicle with a sword, drenched in testosterone and the blood of his enemies. |Something else happened, and it must have been major, because the article states that Amazon had such great faith in the series they ordered two of them. I don't know what that was, but would dearly love to find out, as cancellation of a project that big would have hit Amazon's pocket. You can't just walk away from a contractual obligation without some form of recompense to those involved. Condal would have written 3 episodes, and a director for the first was already onboard. You could be looking at Amazon having spent close to 200k right there.
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Post by Aryeh on Jan 22, 2020 9:35:19 GMT -5
Aryeh, i'm not going to believe that Conan At Amazon was canned because Jennifer Salke didn't want a series on her hands about a walking testicle with a sword, drenched in testosterone and the blood of his enemies. |Something else happened, and it must have been major, because the article states that Amazon had such great faith in the series they ordered two of them. I don't know what that was, but would dearly love to find out, as cancellation of a project that big would have hit Amazon's pocket. You can't just walk away from a contractual obligation without some form of recompense to those involved. Condal would have written 3 episodes, and a director for the first was already onboard. You could be looking at Amazon having spent close to 200k right there.
You again got the facts wrong: there was never any deal for two seasons. That what you are talking about was misinterpretation by someone who had second-hand information. If you read the original articles that reported the news first-hand, in Deadline if i remember correctly, you will not find anything about "two seasons".
Regarding Condal's pitch, it was a failure on two accounts, first being the one I already named (he failed in convincing Amazon he is going to do something which will not fall into what Stephen king called "the power of the powerless" category), while the second is also inappropriate in a politically charged climate such as the one we are in today: namely, what he proposed (Conan leaving his tribe, being a stranger in civilization, being looked at as if he was a lesser being or something like that) could have been taken right from the DVD box of Robert Aldrich 1954 film Apache, only now instead of a Native American we have a Cimmerian. We can see right away how that is a problem and how that would have been filed under "cultural appropriation".
Regarding the first reason, again, the deal made with Condal was made before Jennifer Salke got the job. In the article I linked it is explicitly stated she got the job after a sex-related scandal, etc. So no, I am not wrong.
However, you are and have been, now several times.
A. You were mistakenly claiming someone else and not Malmberg has the film rights, which is definitely not true.
B. You were saying that Malmberg did lot of good things for Conan (he didn't -- neither Marvel comics nor Dark Horse comics before are anything exceptional, in fact they are mediocre to bad; those two video-games are left unfinished and both were released too early and were unplayable; the 2011 movie was mediocre at best, but even as such it could have been a base for a more succesful sequels only if Malmberg invested something in its promotion like he didn't -- he gave up the day the film premiered which is almost unheard of; Malmberg kept pushing away serious talent such as Milius, Coppola and Verhoeven and instead ordered a film screenplay from some lesser authors, and that screenplay was in addition based on a novel that had nothing to do with Conan; there is a great screenplay by Milius he didn't want to use... Just giving the highlights).
C. You stated that Conan would have been a "competing franchise" in comparison with the Lord of the Rings series, which is exactly not how the business works -- networks, internet platforms, want more, and more of the same or more of the similar.
D. You give second-hand information about "two seasons".
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Post by theironshadow on Jan 23, 2020 6:18:57 GMT -5
Aryeh, withthe above post you are on the brink of not only embarrassing yourself with your blinkered biased 'facts' but are directly ignoring stated facts that an A Level college student would be willing to use as citation.
I'll take it from the top. Let's start with the position of Amazon and Conan. Variety is a magazine that has a battery of lawyers onboard and can't afford to publish erroneous facts about a news story. I'm quoting (and if you have a first hand source rather than Variety please provide it) Sharon Tal Yguado, Amazon’s head of scripted series, has been leading the development charge the past few months. Amazon has made some big commitments in recent weeks, including a two-season order for a new take on the “Conan the Barbarian” franchise. There it is right there.
Frederik Malmerg and his push to make something of Conan; I have something. I believe as a property it is valuable; i want to sell it. If the big players don't want to buy it i can't do anything to change that. Conan and fun.com Conan at Dark Horse, a Grade C animation producer attempting to make an animated Conan film? Two terrible Conan video games from a now-failed games studio (THQ) and TDK! Malmberg tried to get Conan pushed out into other media and it didn't work. But he tried!
And finally, the only studio that Malmberg could find to make a new Conan film was Lionsgate, instead of Universal and Warner etc. You have suggested that Malberg pushed away major talent on the film. I will say right now that Malmberg was a Producer on the film, but with nowhere near the power or clout that Avi Lerner of Boaz Davidson were on the project. It might even be said that Malmberg's involvement on the film was one of limited creativity, thus suggesting his position as Producer was given to him with reluctance. He probably did his best at every turn and was shut down by Lerner.
The film rights to Conan; i knew that Cabinet held the rights to all of Howard's literary creations, but going back a few years it was the case that a a third party individual held the film rights to Conan. Let's call that resolved.
Competing franchises; Disney have had the screenplay for a remake of The Black Hole completed and waiting to begin production for a few years. Disney said themselves that with Star Wars being their primary SF franchise 'They didn't want the competition'. I'm not going to read between the lines; i know how the industry works from personal experience, and there must have been a very good reason for the tv series to get cancelled after Amazon putting start-up finance into it. We don't know why. but may find out later down the line.
Thanks for your time.
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Post by Aryeh on Jan 23, 2020 7:15:44 GMT -5
Aryeh, withthe above post you are on the brink of not only embarrassing yourself with your blinkered biased 'facts' but are directly ignoring stated facts that an A Level college student would be willing to use as citation. I'll take it from the top. Let's start with the position of Amazon and Conan. Variety is a magazine that has a battery of lawyers onboard and can't afford to publish erroneous facts about a news story. I'm quoting (and if you have a first hand source rather than Variety please provide it) Sharon Tal Yguado, Amazon’s head of scripted series, has been leading the development charge the past few months. Amazon has made some big commitments in recent weeks, including a two-season order for a new take on the “Conan the Barbarian” franchise. There it is right there. Frederik Malmerg and his push to make something of Conan; I have something. I believe as a property it is valuable; i want to sell it. If the big players don't want to buy it i can't do anything to change that. Conan and fun.com Conan at Dark Horse, a Grade C animation producer attempting to make an animated Conan film? Two terrible Conan video games from a now-failed games studio (THQ) and TDK! Malmberg tried to get Conan pushed out into other media and it didn't work. But he tried! And finally, the only studio that Malmberg could find to make a new Conan film was Lionsgate, instead of Universal and Warner etc. You have suggested that Malberg pushed away major talent on the film. I will say right now that Malmberg was a Producer on the film, but with nowhere near the power or clout that Avi Lerner of Boaz Davidson were on the project. It might even be said that Malmberg's involvement on the film was one of limited creativity, thus suggesting his position as Producer was given to him with reluctance. He probably did his best at every turn and was shut down by Lerner. The film rights to Conan; i knew that Cabinet held the rights to all of Howard's literary creations, but going back a few years it was the case that a a third party individual held the film rights to Conan. Let's call that resolved. Competing franchises; Disney have had the screenplay for a remake of The Black Hole completed and waiting to begin production for a few years. Disney said themselves that with Star Wars being their primary SF franchise 'They didn't want the competition'. I'm not going to read between the lines; i know how the industry works from personal experience, and there must have been a very good reason for the tv series to get cancelled after Amazon putting start-up finance into it. We don't know why. but may find out later down the line. Thanks for your time.
You can go on living in a fantasy world in which you successfully managed to defend Malmberg, in which Funcom is spelled "fun.com", etc. I don't mind.
Still the facts remain that Malmberg did not manage to produce anything substantial except apologies.
P.S. I don't know if you are a friend of his or if you are on his payroll, but I don't think you're doing a great job in trying to provide even more excuses.
The only thing that can excuse him after all this is
A. to actually create something /let people who know what they are doing create something based on REH's Conan;
B. sell / give up the rights to REH.
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Post by Von K on Jan 23, 2020 13:44:17 GMT -5
the childish white male power fantasy which inhabits the neighborhood of the Incel ideology
That’s what the paranoid MSM was saying about The Joker and they were wrong about that too. 55 million budget. 1 billion box office and 11 oscar nominations later… Just sayin.’ I’d tend to steer clear of using Stephen King as a guide in this context. The guy’s hard working and talented but he’s got feet of clay like the rest of us. He makes mistakes and misrepresents his personal taste and opinion as objective reality, just like many of us do. His take on the S+S genre is woefully ill-informed and simplistic, as was Bloch's. Added to which that SK quote comes from way back in 1981. To his credit King has a lot of good to say about REH here amidst the right royal clunkers but he was also inevitably caught up in all the ignorant faux psychologising that was prevalent back then. Novalyne Price Ellis, who actually knew REH personally for several years, was appalled by it all, and tried to set the record straight in her 1986 book One Who Walked Alone. REH scholars have also spent decades setting the record straight. This is an article posted on twitter by Fredrik back on the sixteenth: www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/netflix-invest-173-billion-content-2020-analyst-estimates-1270435Amazon's massive investment in the LotR franchise looks like pocket change by comparison.
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Post by attilaman66 on Jan 23, 2020 15:07:09 GMT -5
I would like to say up front that I'm not on anyone's payroll. I don't work in movies or TV so I can't say how hard or easy it is, but I would have to imagine that at least a little tricky. I don't think it's right to put all this blame on Malmberg. Hollywood is a big machine with many moving parts. And with Avi Lerner on that 2011 Conan movie, that right there is a big red flag. I don't play video games all that much these days, but I hear that the Conan survival game is well liked and I remember hearing the AOC MMORPG was and still is a big hit. Also we have (from what I have heard) a kick ass Conan tabletop RPG that I hope to play soon. So yes, there have been failures like Conan 2011, Amazon, and a "Meh" hack and slash video game. However there have been successes. Isn't Malmberg the one who got all of REH's original unaltered Conan stories published for the first time since the 30"s? That's a big one IMHO. I think the person that has done the most damage and who is continuing to do damage to Conan is Arnold. People in Hollywood probably don't take the character seriously because of Arnold. The main consensus in the industry is that Conan is a "big guy action hero" that is not really all that interesting and the only actor who can play him is Arnold. And that is probably fine with all the people in Hollywood, but Arnold is not doing well since he came out of retirement. In their eyes, he is the only one who can play Conan, but wont touch it because of him. It must be hard to get momentum on a Conan movie or TV show with Arnold in the front of Hollywood's eye. I remember years ago I was listening to XM radio while driving. Can't remember what show or who the host was, but he was interviewing Francis Ford Coppola. The host was talking about his "Dracula" movie and how awesome it was and how the production looked top notch. He asked Francis what the hardest thing was about getting that movie made? Francis said "the pitch to the studio".
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2020 17:50:07 GMT -5
I would like to say up front that I'm not on anyone's payroll. I don't work in movies or TV so I can't say how hard or easy it is, but I would have to imagine that at least a little tricky. I don't think it's right to put all this blame on Malmberg. Hollywood is a big machine with many moving parts. And with Avi Lerner on that 2011 Conan movie, that right there is a big red flag. I don't play video games all that much these days, but I hear that the Conan survival game is well liked and I remember hearing the AOC MMORPG was and still is a big hit. Also we have (from what I have heard) a kick ass Conan tabletop RPG that I hope to play soon. So yes, there have been failures like Conan 2011, Amazon, and a "Meh" hack and slash video game. However there have been successes. Isn't Malmberg the one who got all of REH's original unaltered Conan stories published for the first time since the 30"s? That's a big one IMHO. I think the person that has done the most damage and who is continuing to do damage to Conan is Arnold. People in Hollywood probably don't take the character seriously because of Arnold. The main consensus in the industry is that Conan is a "big guy action hero" that is not really all that interesting and the only actor who can play him is Arnold. And that is probably fine with all the people in Hollywood, but Arnold is not doing well since he came out of retirement. In their eyes, he is the only one who can play Conan, but wont touch it because of him. It must be hard to get momentum on a Conan movie or TV show with Arnold in the front of Hollywood's eye. I remember years ago I was listening to XM radio while driving. Can't remember what show or who the host was, but he was interviewing Francis Ford Coppola. The host was talking about his "Dracula" movie and how awesome it was and how the production looked top notch. He asked Francis what the hardest thing was about getting that movie made? Francis said "the pitch to the studio". Very true Attilaman66, I agree wholeheartedly. I have a little go at Malmberg in my posts now and then, but I gotta acknowledge that REH fans owe a huge thanks to Fredrik Malmberg and also the REH fans and scholars that made the original unaltered works of REH available after so many decades. That is the most important thing really, movies & TV , Comics and video games mean nothing without the original yarns by REH to inspire them.
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Post by Aryeh on Jan 23, 2020 20:02:31 GMT -5
I think the person that has done the most damage and who is continuing to do damage to Conan is Arnold. People in Hollywood probably don't take the character seriously because of Arnold.
I strongly disagree--for two reasons.
One: Arnold Schwarzenegger is one of the biggest film stars ever. He is out there with Charlie Chaplin, John Wayne, Mickey Mouse, E.T., Boris Karloff in a Frankenstein's creature make-up. I.E. he is one of those names and faces that became practically synonymous with the concept and the term "cinema". He is and will be for a long time recognized and recognizable in the whole world. ...People also make fun of Marlon Brando, like, he was mumbling etc. But they are just jealous--Brando is another of those whose name and face is synonymous with "cinema". And when people make fun of Schwarzenegger, it is the same thing. So, in fact Schwarzenegger is not just blameless but also he deserves lots of credit for his involvement with REH's Conan.
Two: Conan the barbarian was taken as a joke long time before the Milius' film in which Schwarzenegger played Conan. Stephen King mentions Robert Bloch's reaction in the quote I included in one of my previous posts. In 1934 Bloch wrote that Conan is a boring stereotype who "has every month slain a new wizard, tackled a new monster, come to a violent sudden end that was averted (incredibly enough!) in just the nick of time, and won a new girlfriend, each of whose penchant for nudism won her a place of honor, either on the cover or on the inner illustration." So, you see, it started a long time ago, and has nothing whatsoever to do with Schwarzenegger.
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