Viking Stuff: Archaeology, Culture and History

[kemp]

Jun 13, 2023 17:27:51 GMT -5 Von K said:

Jun 11, 2023 21:44:45 GMT -5 kemp said:

I have also read elsewhere that the Viking blades were passed on as heirlooms, passed to heirs along with other property.

Matt Easton makes the important point from his reading of the sagas that Viking swords were also used for defence/parry on occasion, for example when the shield was broken, and the use of spears that can pierce through the lighter shields.

Note the specific details of fights not only of individuals but groups of warriors setting upon other groups of men in bloody combat, that the prime targets of someone holding a shield are the somewhat exposed head and legs, interesting to note, which in turn creates a certain body stance where you try to hold your head back in attack and defence. Of course if you are attacking the legs, you may raise the shield for defence and use your sword arm to attack your adversaries legs, noted by Matt, a move that might be a little too exposed and risky without a shield.

The sagas, not withstanding that many of them tell of legendary accounts, still describe the devastating cutting power of these blades, ones that bend and break, but also ones of excellent quality that held up better, a testament to the skill of the great Viking smiths that forged blades such as the famous Ingelrii swords made from intricate welded strips of hardenable steel and softer iron to create a weapon that could cut and hold a good edge, but still be tough enough to withstand breaking too easily.

Liked the reference to pattern welding being 'the serpent in the blade' as well, and the idea of named swords having their own kind of spirit.

The spear with a blade an ell in length he referred to is the altgeir, variously translated as long spear or halberd. It was Gunnar of Hlidarend's (Njal's Saga) favourite weapon which he first liberated from one of a pair of pirate brothers early in his life and kept ever after.

You know your Icelandic saga well.

 

[Von K]

Jun 14, 2023 7:17:43 GMT -5 kemp said:

Jun 13, 2023 17:27:51 GMT -5 Von K said:

Liked the reference to pattern welding being 'the serpent in the blade' as well, and the idea of named swords having their own kind of spirit.

The spear with a blade an ell in length he referred to is the altgeir, variously translated as long spear or halberd. It was Gunnar of Hlidarend's (Njal's Saga) favourite weapon which he first liberated from one of a pair of pirate brothers early in his life and kept ever after.

You know your Icelandic saga well.

 

There's a detailed breakdown of Icelandic Saga polearms here: www.docdroid.net/B8B7iJk/beitrag-pdf

It's a bit heavy for casual reading though I'd imagine Matt would enjoy the statistics etc.

for the atgeirr, the translations “battle-spear” or “overspear” (to emphasize the

uniqueness of the weapon) should be preferred to the word “halberd”. Although

it is not fully clear what archaeologically the atgeirr was, its geometry and use

(prevalent thrusts and occasional cuts) show that it was probably a specimen (or

subtype) of hewing spear

Needless to say Gunnar pulls off some incredible feats with one if the accounts are not romanticised to border on almost legendry by the time they were written down.

When holding the weapon one-handed, and assuming that it is wielded more or less like

a spear, another question arises about the guard, since three possible positions are

depicted in artwork throughout history for the one-handed spear: the overarm, underarm

and couched guards (Fig. 7). In two situations, we can guess what the guard of the

protagonist is:


• when Gunnar shoots (thrusts or throws) the atgeirr through a enemy shield and

its bearer in what seems to be a downward blow, we can guess the use of an

overarm guard41,


• when Gunnar lifts an impaled Egil on the atgeirr with a single arm (chapter 63):

the scene is quite obviously a literary overstatement, magnifying Gunnar’s

strength, but this feat can be marginally reasonable if a pivot point is provided

by the armpit to use the shaft of the weapon as a lever. The blow might have

been delivered from a couched or underarm guard, and the lifting is done in the

couched guard

[kemp]

That link is a great reference to Viking style polearms. It's comprehensive, had a look, but did not read all of it, mostly the comparisons. Seems that the Viking swords get most the limelight, but in reality axes and spears would have been more common, perhaps due to the greater ease in manufacture, also the cost, especially when we are talking about spears.   

[Von K]

Jun 15, 2023 20:55:31 GMT -5 kemp said:

That link is a great reference to Viking style polearms. It's comprehensive, had a look, but did not read all of it, mostly the comparisons. Seems that the Viking swords get most the limelight, but in reality axes and spears would have been more common, perhaps due to the greater ease in manufacture, also the cost, especially when we are talking about spears.   

Yeah I think you're right kemp about swords being mainly the preserve of the wealthier warriors with the exception of those few who obtained one as a gift for good service or as plunder from raiding or war. Scramasax, axes and spears being far more common.

[Von K]

The Icelandic VIKING SAGAS !!!

Great vid. Grammaticus cites Egil Skallagrimson as a major influence on KEW's Kane, which I thought was an apt observation - in addition to the saga's influence on S+S and fantasy fiction in general. For some reason he doesn't cover Grettir's saga.

[Von K]

Great stuff from Miracle of Sound, who contributed to the Witcher 3 soundtrack:

VALHALLA CALLING by Miracle Of Sound - ORIGINAL VERSION (Viking/Nordic-inspired Dark Folk Music)

VALHALLA CALLING: Viking Metal Version by Miracle Of Sound

[Von K]

More from Miracle of Sound.

Skal!

SKÅL! by Miracle Of Sound

SKÅL! - METAL VERSION by Miracle Of Sound (Viking Folk Metal)

[kemp]

I would probably take the following article with a pinch of salt, especially their use of terms such 'civilized social system'. Having said that I found the comparisons between Danish and Norwegian Viking societies to be interesting, and you would think that the more southerly Danish society would have more influence from feudal European society than their more northern cousins anyway. 

'The Norwegian Vikings Possessed an Abundant and Disproportionate Number of Swords

A recent study published in the Journal of Anthropological Archaeology reveals that Norwegian Viking society was significantly more violent than that of Denmark. This finding is based on a detailed analysis of skeletal traumas, weapons, and archaeological evidence reflecting the social and political dynamics of these ancient Scandinavian peoples. The study offers an innovative perspective on the differences between these two Viking societies.

Researchers discovered that Norwegian Vikings possessed a disproportionate number of swords compared to their Danish neighbors. Swords, considered personal weapons and symbols of status, are a clear indicator of the prevalence of interpersonal violence in Norway. The abundant presence of these weapons suggests a social environment where violence and the threat of violence were common and possibly accepted as part of everyday life.

In contrast, Danish Viking society showed fewer swords and a tendency towards more institutionalized and regulated forms of violence. Official executions were more common in Denmark, indicating a more centralized and civilized social system where violence was controlled by authorities and not as prevalent on a personal level.





www.labrujulaverde.com/en/2024/06/the-norwegian-vikings-possessed-an-abundant-and-disproportionate-number-of-swords/

[Von K]

That study is too general to draw any solid conclusions though it's a good start in that it combines data from so many fields. I'd like to see frequency of other weapon types included and the comparative proportions thereof. An axe or a spear can kill just as effectively as a sword though less likely to survive the ravages of time. In Njal's Saga his son Skarp Hedin used an axe called Battle Troll.

The Norwegian's and Icelanders of that time were extremely sensitive about their honor and sometimes a slight or an insult could lead to a killing. They could be in some places easily goaded or provoked into violence by the unscrupulous. Also with settlements being so isolated they needed readier access to weaponry for self defense. That kind of culture and geography had a bigger impact than the actual weapons being used imho.

[kemp]

Jul 3, 2024 16:56:34 GMT -5 Von K said:

That study is too general to draw any solid conclusions though it's a good start in that it combines data from so many fields. I'd like to see frequency of other weapon types included and the comparative proportions thereof. An axe or a spear can kill just as effectively as a sword though less likely to survive the ravages of time. In Njal's Saga his son Skarp Hedin used an axe called Battle Troll.

The Norwegian's and Icelanders of that time were extremely sensitive about their honor and sometimes a slight or an insult could lead to a killing. They could be in some places easily goaded or provoked into violence by the unscrupulous. Also with settlements being so isolated they needed readier access to weaponry for self defense. That kind of culture and geography had a bigger impact than the actual weapons being used imho.

Fair point. I read that the spear was the most common weapon, makes sense when you consider that spears were easier to manufacture, especially making a number of them at any given time when compared with swords, also cheaper, and more numerous finds in Viking burial sites. After that axes. 

In many ways the Norwegians and their Icelandic and New world off shoots were more frontier than the Danes or even the more mercantile Swedes, but of course all of them were involved in trade ventures, and of course raiding.

[Von K]

Jul 7, 2024 3:45:25 GMT -5 kemp said:

Jul 3, 2024 16:56:34 GMT -5 Von K said:

That study is too general to draw any solid conclusions though it's a good start in that it combines data from so many fields. I'd like to see frequency of other weapon types included and the comparative proportions thereof. An axe or a spear can kill just as effectively as a sword though less likely to survive the ravages of time. In Njal's Saga his son Skarp Hedin used an axe called Battle Troll.

The Norwegian's and Icelanders of that time were extremely sensitive about their honor and sometimes a slight or an insult could lead to a killing. They could be in some places easily goaded or provoked into violence by the unscrupulous. Also with settlements being so isolated they needed readier access to weaponry for self defense. That kind of culture and geography had a bigger impact than the actual weapons being used imho.

Fair point. I read that the spear was the most common weapon, makes sense when you consider that spears were easier to manufacture, especially making a number of them at any given time when compared with swords, also cheaper, and more numerous finds in Viking burial sites. After that axes. 

In many ways the Norwegians and their Icelandic and New world off shoots were more frontier than the Danes or even the more mercantile Swedes, but of course all of them were involved in trade ventures, and of course raiding.

There is a famous fight at the Althing in Njals Saga. When legal proceedings fall apart due to egregious miss-use of lawfare one of the enraged lawyers on one side grabs a spear and runs an opposing lawyer through the breast and out through the shoulder blades killing him. Then all hell breaks loose, including later in the fight a hurled spear which fells another combatant. Needless to say after the fight the lawfare is dropped and a fairer settlement is made. Plenty of spear deaths in the sagas--

And of course as we discussed above the atgeir, or hewing spear, was Gunnar of Hlidarend's preferred weapon.

'Geirr' is Old Norse for 'spear' and can be found in many names such as Thorgeir, Geirmund etc.

[kemp]

Jul 7, 2024 12:56:38 GMT -5 Von K said:

Jul 7, 2024 3:45:25 GMT -5 kemp said:

Fair point. I read that the spear was the most common weapon, makes sense when you consider that spears were easier to manufacture, especially making a number of them at any given time when compared with swords, also cheaper, and more numerous finds in Viking burial sites. After that axes. 

In many ways the Norwegians and their Icelandic and New world off shoots were more frontier than the Danes or even the more mercantile Swedes, but of course all of them were involved in trade ventures, and of course raiding.

There is a famous fight at the Althing in Njals Saga. When legal proceedings fall apart due to egregious miss-use of lawfare one of the enraged lawyers on one side grabs a spear and runs an opposing lawyer through the breast and out through the shoulder blades killing him. Then all hell breaks loose, including later in the fight a hurled spear which fells another combatant. Needless to say after the fight the lawfare is dropped and a fairer settlement is made. Plenty of spear deaths in the sagas--

And of course as we discussed above the atgeir, or hewing spear, was Gunnar of Hlidarend's preferred weapon.

'Geirr' is Old Norse for 'spear' and can be found in many names such as Thorgeir, Geirmund etc.

I suppose that's one way to settle a legal matter.

You know your material Von K, you are the Hun of the Viking thread.




'In chapter 8 of Króka-Refs saga, Refur made a spear for himself which could be used for cutting, thrusting, or hewing. Refur split Þorgils in two down to his shoulders with the spear.'

www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/viking_spear.htm

[Von K]

Jul 7, 2024 19:25:33 GMT -5 kemp said:

Jul 7, 2024 12:56:38 GMT -5 Von K said:

There is a famous fight at the Althing in Njals Saga. When legal proceedings fall apart due to egregious miss-use of lawfare one of the enraged lawyers on one side grabs a spear and runs an opposing lawyer through the breast and out through the shoulder blades killing him. Then all hell breaks loose, including later in the fight a hurled spear which fells another combatant. Needless to say after the fight the lawfare is dropped and a fairer settlement is made. Plenty of spear deaths in the sagas--

And of course as we discussed above the atgeir, or hewing spear, was Gunnar of Hlidarend's preferred weapon.

'Geirr' is Old Norse for 'spear' and can be found in many names such as Thorgeir, Geirmund etc.

I suppose that's one way to settle a legal matter.

You know your material Von K, you are the Hun of the Viking thread.




'In chapter 8 of Króka-Refs saga, Refur made a spear for himself which could be used for cutting, thrusting, or hewing. Refur split Þorgils in two down to his shoulders with the spear.'

www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/viking_spear.htm

Nice link kemp, thanks! Worth keeping bookmarked I think.

They have a page on each weapon type including one we didn't mention recently called the sax (or scramasax as my re-enactor friends used to call them). Erik drew an authentic viking warrior with one a few years back very similar to what my friends used to use (though there are many variants of the design):

I can't lay claim to any great knowledge on these topics though. The more I learn the less I seem to know compared to the sum total of knowledge in any given field.

[kemp]

Yes, I remember talking about Viking single edged knives and swords which came under the broad definition of Sax ( Seax ), mostly on the weapons thread though. Of course the Angles, Saxons, Franks and others used them too. Some debate on whether the name Sax was derived from the Saxons. 



Some contemporary work based ( roughly ) on the originals. 

[kemp]

Jul 8, 2024 16:12:50 GMT -5 Von K said:

Jul 7, 2024 19:25:33 GMT -5 kemp said:

Nice link kemp, thanks! Worth keeping bookmarked I think.

They have a page on each weapon type including one we didn't mention recently called the sax (or scramasax as my re-enactor friends used to call them). Erik drew an authentic viking warrior with one a few years back very similar to what my friends used to use (though there are many variants of the design):

I can't lay claim to any great knowledge on these topics though. The more I learn the less I seem to know compared to the sum total of knowledge in any given field.

Erik's depiction of the above Viking warrior sports the armour, weapons and helmet associated with historical Vikings. No horned helmet and swinging some fantasy axe. Of course licence is allowed if say he was depicting REH's Vanir or Aesir.

Horned helmets have been found in some parts of Scandinavia dated to almost 1000 BC, but this was pre Viking era peoples, they may have used them for ceremonial purposes, and Celts and some bronze age Mediterranean cultures sometimes wore horned helms.