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Post by zarono on Mar 11, 2016 9:54:22 GMT -5
Did REH ever read Lovecraft's "Behind the Wall of Sleep"? There's no connection to that story in the Zukala Cycle of course but the mention of star-things/sentient stars brought HPL's tale to my mind.
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Post by deuce on Mar 11, 2016 10:30:53 GMT -5
Did REH ever read Lovecraft's "Beyond the Wall of Sleep"? There's no connection to that story in the Zukala Cycle of course but the mention of star-things/sentient stars brought HPL's tale to my mind. We probably have a more exact list of what HPL works Howard read than for any other author. BtWoS doesn't show up on the Bookshelf: web.archive.org/web/20060518061454/http://www.rehupa.com/bookshelf_l.htm#Lovecraft, Howard Phillips. (1890-1937). The earliest REH could have read it was 1934 (ISFDB is a great resource): www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?41868I once thought it possible that BtWoS was an influence on The Tower of the Elephant. No dice. However, as you well know, HPL and REH (and CAS) repeatedly anticipated/parallel-created many concepts. I'll be going into that on this thread.
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Post by zarono on Mar 11, 2016 16:13:29 GMT -5
Yep, something was definitely plucking similar fibers in all 3 of their brains
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Post by Von K on Mar 15, 2016 14:27:51 GMT -5
Thanks for the Zukala poems Deuce!
First time I've read them in their entirety. And I sure hope that someday someone will be able to elaborate more on TCS cryptic comment regarding REH being Zukala.
The first line of the Tower of Zukala is another one of those places where you can get a sense of REH's pronunciation, since, like Ride of Falume (original version, before FW's edit) REH rhymes 'behind' with 'wind.'
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Post by deuce on Mar 20, 2016 0:47:24 GMT -5
In this poem, we see hints of the "god of death and rebirth" that Robert E. Howard referred to in "The Isle of the Eons". ZUKALA’S HOUR High in his dim, ghost-haunted tower Zukala sits alone; Like a spider spinning his webs of power Upon his moon-pale throne. All through the long, star-spectral night The tower knows no tread Save for, sometimes, the eery, light Swift footfalls of the dead. He does not sleep and his eyes are deep As the Seas of Falgarai; And he moves his sceptre but to sweep The dim stars out of the sky. And when the wind is out of the east And the silver moon’s agleam That pales the stars and dims the least, Zukala sits a-dream. But when the wind is out of the north And the grey light lifts for morn, Zukala harries his sendings forth To know if a child be born. And the babe that is born in that ghostly hour In the time of the paling light Is cursed with the gift of Zukala’s power— The gift of second sight. For an unseen web from the ghostly shores Upon his soul is thrown And though his brothers may number scores That babe must walk alone. He shall walk in lands that are dim and grey, But never shall he take fright, Though ghosts shall whisper to him by day And walk at his side by night. His brothers may sing to the echoing sky, Proud lords of the Universe, But he shall see with an unveiled eye, For that is Zukala’s Curse. He shall see that the world is fog and dust, That Fate is all that rules; The gold that he gains shall be as rust And his brothers empty fools. Ambition shall be but a broken goad; Mirthless shall be his mirth. The trails of ghosts shall be his road And the wastelands of the earth. Empty shall be the cheers of hosts Though he win to heights of power, For he is destined to walk with ghosts That is born in Zukala’s Hour. I stumbled on/rediscovered some paintings from the great Jim Fitzpatrick which I felt were Zukala-esque. I've edited one into the post above.
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Post by deuce on Mar 20, 2016 19:09:04 GMT -5
In this poem by REH we once again see Zukala's role in birth/rebirth and as a bestower of souls. His "jest" here is much like that of the boy's fate in "Zukala's Hour". The girl sounds a bit like Salome in AWSBB. ZUKALA’S JEST The gods brought a Soul before Zukala, A Soul that had been wandering in Space; “A babe is to be born at the coming of the morn, “And this Soul is chosen for the place.” Down from his throne looked Zukala With his strange eyes a-glitter from his face. “The babe shall be a girl,” said Zukala, “With every tooth a pearl,” said Zukala; “A woman strangely fair with wondrous golden hair “Men’s souls shall she ensnare,” said Zukala. “She shall raise mankind to wrath,” said Zukala; “Blighted love shall haunt her path,” said Zukala; “Men for her their souls will sell for her destiny is fell, “And her feet are set toward Hell,” said Zukala. Another "Zukala-esque" Jim Fitzpatrick piece edited in.
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Post by deuce on Mar 23, 2016 0:18:46 GMT -5
Okay. Here's Rotath's litany from The Curse of the Golden Skull: How strange it seemed, that he, Rotath of the Moonstone and the Asphodel, sorcerer and magician, should be gasping out his breath on the marble floor, a victim to that most material of all threats--a keen pointed sword in a sinewy hand.
Rotath cursed the limitations of the flesh. He felt his brain crumbling and he cursed all the men of all the worlds. He cursed them by Hotath and Helgor, by Ra and Ka and Valka.
He cursed all men living and dead, and all the generations unborn for a million centuries to come, naming Vramma and Jaggta-noga and Kamma and Kulthas. He cursed humanity by the fane of the Black Gods, the tracks of the Serpent Ones, the talons of the Ape Lords and the iron bound books of Shuma Gorath.
He cursed goodness and virtue and light, speaking the names of gods forgotten even by the priests of Lemuria. He invoked the dark monstrous shadows of the older worlds, and of those black suns which lurk forever behind the stars.
Much there to ponder. I'll start to deconstruct it all shortly.
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Post by kullagain on Mar 24, 2016 11:47:01 GMT -5
This may be unpopular to think, but after reading more of the Kulls I have to wonder if some of these deities weren't simply conjured for rhyming and alliteration purposes.
......
No seriously, think about a writer's method of ensuring their worlds and stories provide them ample opportunity to not only explore stimulating themes, but also promote music in their prose, especially for those authors dedicated to their wordsmithery like Howard.
In Leiber's Lankmhar series, his characters being a pair for example allows one character's actions to be rhymed with the other's, sparking a perception of symmetry in the reader that blends contrast and similarity together (wish I had an example). And this dynamic parallels and blends with the thematic dynamic between the pair.
So when I saw the following passage again in the above post from CotGS:
"He cursed them by Hotath and Helgor, by Ra and Ka and Valka."
It makes me think of how deities are always invoked with some rhythm in the Kull stories. It may seem a very trivial motivation to name deities by, but hark this: Many deities referenced in any REH have a musical quality associated with them. The worm in VotW is guided by a furry, flute playing asshole. The speech of the ghost from Yag (though he is not a deity in that moment) has a low chanting quality to it when it is thinking and expressing it's eerie ability to see the events that preceded Conan in TotE, which is an ability that I ascribe to Yogah also (I have my reasons for differentiating the two). Also, look at the obvious genesis of the word enchantment, also used in that same chapter with some importance. ;-)
Heck even outside of REH, many otherworldly beings are associated with music, like the engineers in Prometheus, and even prayers and poems in religions of our world.
Lastly, though I jive more with Kull and the Thurian age, this world was never as fleshed out as the Hyborian age, which is no problem, it contributes to our fascination with it as it's added mystery allow us stimulating speculation and even our own world building. But the Howard that wrote these stories was less polished and still less fleshed out as a world builder, and he prioritized making the world musical while still speckling it with clues for not just readers, but also himself to write in.
Those are my thoughts anyway.
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Post by deuce on Mar 24, 2016 19:06:02 GMT -5
This may be unpopular to think, but after reading more of the Kulls I have to wonder if some of these deities weren't simply conjured for rhyming and alliteration purposes. No seriously, think about a writer's method of ensuring their worlds and stories provide them ample opportunity to not only explore stimulating themes, but also promote music in their prose, especially for those authors dedicated to their wordsmithery like Howard. So when I saw the following passage again in the above post from CotGS:
"He cursed them by Hotath and Helgor, by Ra and Ka and Valka."
It makes me think of how deities are always invoked with some rhythm in the Kull stories. Music and magic/religion have always gone hand in hand. Cro-Magnons had musical instruments and they probably used them in rituals. From bone flutes to pipe organs. Many theorize that poetry was the first literature and it was fostered in the service of religion. I certainly won't argue that REH wrote poetic prose (but rarely prosaic poetry). However, out of the five deities above, at least three are definite Thurian Age gods with delineated attributes (according to REH). I doubt that Howard had a detailed idea of "Ra" in his head, but that doesn't mean he didn't have a vague idea for it. REH could make the phone book sound poetic. I'd say your thoughts are pretty apt. Myself, it's that element of "less known" and "less popular" (along with other things) that has kept me studying the Thurian Age for decades now. While the Thurian Age may not be as fleshed out as the Hyborian Age, it underlies everything else in REH's universe. Thus, tales set in the HA contain clues to the TA. One can find more hints throughout Howard's tales, right up to 1936. The Thurian Age pervades REH's fiction and there is more "there" than just the Kull yarns.
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Post by deuce on Mar 31, 2016 17:24:24 GMT -5
There definitely seems to be a very personal touch to the last poem, resonating your comments about REH's fervor for Zukala. Marek mentions him as just a disposer of souls... Zukala isn't a nice guy. Take a look at this poem that REH seemingly wrote about his own day of birth: I Praise My Nativity Oh, evil the day that I was born, like a tale that a witch has told; I came to birth on a bitter morn, when the sky was dim and cold. The god that girds the loins of Fate and sends the nighttime rain, He diced my game on an iron plate with dice carved out of pain. "This for the shadow of hope," laughed he, as the numbers glinted up, "This for a spell and this for hell, and this for the bitter cup."
A Shadow came out of the gloom of night and covered me with his cowl That carried the curse of The Truer Sight and the blindness of the owl. Oh, evil the day that I was born, triply I curse the day, And I would to God I had died that morn and passed like the ocean spray. ~REH~ Compare that to "Zukala's Hour". Howard's outlook on life was not particularly sunny. In both "Hour" and "Jest" you see Zukala fundamentally toying with the souls of two people prior to their birth. One soul is explicitly stated to be "wandering in Space." Obviously, he has power over them at their birth. Howard's statement that Zukala was the god of "death and rebirth" would seem to indicate that he presided over the souls of the dead (though seemingly not being the actual Agent of those deaths) and then had a hand in how those souls were reborn. To Plato, at least, Hades was an agent of "death and rebirth": en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluto_(mythology)#In_Greek_literature_and_philosophyWe know Howard had a profound interest in reincarnation from his letters, poetry and comments to Novalyne Price. We also know that he felt Life and Death to be more than a bit capricious and cruel. Just like Zukala. Hey KA! Well, I found my copy of TDM#10 which contains all the drafts of "Isle of the Eons". Marek, as opposed to some other points he brought up, got the "disposer of souls" part right. I've gone back and edited that into most of my posts so as not to confuse anymore readers than necessary. I have a very good reason for why "god of death and rebirth" got stuck in my mind (beyond the two phrases meaning much the same thing), but I want to ask John R. Fultz a question before I go into it. Regarding the "disposal of souls"... The term "dispose" has wandered pretty far from its original meaning in Latin over the last century or two: The verb dispose comes from the Latin word disponere, meaning “put in order,” “arrange,” or “distribute" —For a long time, the term usually meant just that. However, once it started being used as a synonym/euphemism for "discard", things slid pretty fast. There's every indication that REH used the word in its original meaning. At the very least, Zukala seems to have had jurisdiction over the placement of souls at birth. There is a definite possibility that Howard saw Zukala as a sort of psychopomp: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PsychopompAs a bonus, here's a Zukala-esque piece from Greg Staples.
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Post by kullagain on Mar 31, 2016 23:29:18 GMT -5
Thanks for following up on that deuce!
The original definition of "dispose" certainly clarifies the understanding of Zukala, at least in that regard. I also think psychopomp could be another sub role of Zukala but I have to wonder if he's spreading his responsibilities too thin. ;-P
I do still wonder about the "refugee migration of the elder Mu race" I speculated earlier in the thread, if it was a sound theory.
One comment I wanted to make on Howard from your own post you quoted now that I see it again is, and I am planning to prepare a thread on it soon so maybe its appropriate to discuss it there, but I do think Howard had a "sunnier" disposition than is ascribed to him. Not to disagree about Howard parallel with Zukala, but perhaps, Zukala had a "sunnier side" to him also, since he was in charge of rebirth also. As is quoted often, gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirths. ;-)
Also as to your earlier post on deities and music, just wanted to say that I much pretty much agree and that the last point about the Thurian Age pervading all of Howard's fiction afterward was particularly accurate and thought provoking. A lot of the epoch's DNA and in-world influence has sustained in the stories and Howard most likely clarified his regard and fleshing out of it.
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Post by deuce on Apr 1, 2016 12:03:43 GMT -5
Well, John R. Fultz got back with me... The reason why I got "god of death and rebirth" stuck in my head in regard to Zukala is due to a few reasons. When I first got hold of The Gods of Bal-Sagoth (which contained an edited version of "Isle of the Eons") back around 1985, I saw that Zukala was mentioned as a god, "the disposer of souls" (I previously only knew him as the sorcerer in the Conan comic). I didn't know at that point about the Zukala poems. Years later, I was reading in Dan Harms' Mythos encyclopedia and noticed "Zo-Kalar" listed as a god of HPL's Dreamlands and that Zo-Kalar was a god of death and rebirth (I'd read the name before, but this time it struck me). Linguistically, "Zo-Kalar" is quite close to "Zukala", hardly further apart than a Nebraskan and a Londoner both saying "Zanzibar". I went back and reread HPL's Doom that Came to Sarnath and saw that Zo-Kalar was a god, but nothing else was said about it. I knew that listings weren't always complete, so I was left for several years thinking maybe there was another HPL story that said more. Eventually, I figured out that author, John R. Fultz, had written two tales in the '90s that said that Zo-Kalar was a god of death and rebirth, expanding on HPL's bare name. I just contacted him yesterday and Fultz informed me he couldn't quite remember exactly why he gave Zo-Kalar those attributes, but he hadn't done so as a nod to REH. Serendipity, I guess. So, the rambling above is in service of explaining why I persisted in thinking (without access to "Isle of the Eons") that REH had called Zukala a "god of death and rebirth" (not that "disposer of souls" is far from it). All that said, it's once again amazing how REH anticipated/parallel-created something similar to HPL. We see this again and again when it comes to REH, HPL and Clark Ashton Smith and the Mythos they created (as Zarono and I discussed above). REH probably never got the chance to read The Doom that Came to Sarnath (see link below). If so, it was only a year before he died. We do know that REH seems to have loved any of the HPL Dreamlands tales he was able to find. It's interesting that "Doom" is one of the few stories that HPL wrote that was set in this waking world and in an "age undreamed of" (which I call the "Lomarean Age"). I've got a link below to that as well. web.archive.org/web/20060518061454/http://www.rehupa.com/bookshelf_l.htmwww.hplovecraft.com/writings/fiction/ds.aspx
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Post by deuce on Apr 12, 2016 16:43:12 GMT -5
I do still wonder about the "refugee migration of the elder Mu race" I speculated earlier in the thread, if it was a sound theory. I have my theories (backed up with evidence) regarding Thurian Age deities and Mu, but I prefer to leave that until all the deities have been presented. I need to start a "Mu and Lemuria" thread. BTW, there doesn't seem to be any close connection between the people of Mu and the "Elder Race" mentioned in the Kull stories. I won't deny that REH had a humorous side. Just read his Sailor Costigan or Breck Elkins yarns (or some of his letters). That doesn't invalidate that fact that Howard was moody and could often take a dark, grim view. "Tears of a clown" and all that. Zukala appears to be fairly dark and grim. Definitely capricious and occasionally cruel, at the least. By all means, start a thread on the many moods of REH.
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Post by deuce on Apr 13, 2016 23:23:41 GMT -5
Okay. Here's Rotath's litany from The Curse of the Golden Skull:
Rotath cursed the limitations of the flesh. He felt his brain crumbling and he cursed all the men of all the worlds. He cursed them by Hotath and Helgor, by Ra and Ka and Valka.Hotath: Pretty popular Thurian Age god. Kull liked to swear by "Valka and Hotath!" In The Moon of Skulls, the "brown Atlantean" priest speaks of how the Imperial Atlanteans "worshipped Valka and Hota[t]h, Honen and Golgor". The "Isle of Eons" drafts also speak of "Hota[t]h, the god of war". Nath- Hor th ath was a god mentioned by Lovecraft in The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath (which REH never had the chance to read). Helgor: I may come back to this deity. There is a "Holgar" mentioned in the Stagus Fragment which is probably the same thing. That deity is possibly also a "heathen" god. There is also the possibility that this is another version of "Golgor/Gol-Goroth", but I need to do a bit more research/thinking on that. Ra: As Kullagain has noted, this being may just be a literary place-holder. The resemblance to the Egyptian "Ra" is obvious, but may not mean much. One I'll have to get back to later. Ka: As it says in The Shadow Kingdom -- "How many kings have we watched ride down these streets before Kull of Atlantis was even a dream in the mind of Ka, the bird of Creation?" Apparently, the primal creator-god of the Thurian Age. It also harkens back to the Egyptian "bennu-bird", which was the prototype for the "phoenix" legend. Of course, the Phoenix of Epemitreus and the Ibis of Kalanthes were associated with opposition to Set in the Hyborian Age. Valka: Possibly the most universal god of the Thurian Age (at least during Kull's era). Valka was worshipped even in barbaric, xenophobic Atlantis and (apparently) by the Picts. In one story (I'll have to look it up) Valka is referred to as the god of "land and sea" (Poseidon might disagree). There's no/not much possibility that Valka and Poseidon are one and the same, because Valka is mentioned alongside Poseidon in the "Eons" fragments. In those fragments, Valka is said to be the "god of fertility and growth". I don't think it's a stretch to wonder if "Val ka" might just mean "Son of Ka". *Art by Peter Mohrbacher.
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Post by deuce on Apr 16, 2016 22:10:49 GMT -5
I've thought for a long time that there was an undiscovered goddess in the Kull tales. Check this out: Kull, fist supporting chin, nodded. He had listened with scant interest to the tale of how the young countess of Fanara had left a Valusian nobleman waiting on the steps of Merama's and had eloped with a man of her own choice.
"Yes," he impatiently interrupted Tu, "I understand. But what have the amorous adventures of a giddy girl to do with me? I blame her not for forsaking Kayanna--by Valka, he is as ugly as a rhinoceros and has a more abominable disposition. Then why tell me this tale?"
"You do not understand, Kull," said Tu with the patience one must accord a barbarian who happens to be a king, besides. "The customs of the nation are not your customs. Lala-ah, by deserting Ka-yanna at the very foot of the altar where their nuptials were to be consummated, committed a very gross offense to the traditions of the land--and an insult to the nation is an insult to the king, Kull. For this alone she must be brought back and punished.Look at the first underlined sentence. It makes no sense, grammatically. The "steps of Merama's"? The steps of Merama's what? There's nothing there. It's not just in the Del Rey edition, it's that way in every edition I know of. What this looks like is a typo. Lala-ah and Ka-yanna were supposed to meet at Merama's _blank_. They're nobility. They weren't meeting to marry at "Merama's Tavern". The second underlined sentence shows that there was an altar at "Merama's". Altars are found almost exclusively at holy places. This holy place has "steps" and appears to be in an urban location. It all points to a temple. Whose temple would that be? The temple of Merama. The evidence indicates that Merama was likely the Valusian/Thurian goddess of hearth, home and marriage (since those attributes tend to go together across cultures). Probably analogous to goddesses like Hera, Juno and Vesta. There ya go.
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