Modiphius bends the knee.

[wulfhere]

The Hyborian Age is apparently too racially insensitive for Modiphius.


"Conan the Wanderer Edits

user avatar
Samuel WebbCollaborator
November 9, 2020
We want to address comments online about the edits to Conan the Wanderer.
Statement from Modiphius


We made changes to Conan the Wanderer on a cultural consultant’s recommendations that created a more rounded and well-developed representation of the fictional cultures based on their obviously real South and East Asian counterparts. Word choices were edited throughout for tone, like removing “exotic” and “mysterious” replacing it with a better adjective to describe its people and places, so that players inhabiting eastern characters in their games aren’t just a stereotype of strange, unknown people, and placed them at the center of this book. This was an issue for us in the original version, as it often assumed to paint all eastern characters with the same brush, instead of inspiring a sense of rich societies and cultures.

For example, the “Martial Arts” talent tree title was changed to reflect our editorial view, as associated unarmed combat with eastern peoples has a poor tradition of Orientalism within the hobby, when there are counterparts all over the world. Instead they are now called “Unarmed” techniques. The Lotus Road section was edited so as not to over-emphasise it as a drug route because “Chinese drug dealers” is another vicious stereotype used in stories that portray East Asian characters as a threat to the Western world, and is not something we wanted to publish. Lotus was not removed, only the tone of the passage has been changed. Equally, the tone describing the Vendhyan caste system was toned down, so it was not so absolute and all-encompassing as it was portrayed—as is not the case in South Asia—and provided players with a richer, more inspiring write up.

The material is and always has been wholly faithful to Robert E Howard. We’re not changing anything about the setting or the world. Not a single word of REH’s text has been altered. The only adjustments are being made to the game content itself, or fiction we’ve derived and extrapolated from his works, particularly the way we discuss and present that material. In discussing these concerns with Cabinet themselves, they confirmed to us that anything new that is published derived from Robert E Howard’s work is pastiche, and as such should be fitting for a modern audience. This new version of Wanderer, and all of its changes, was approved by them.

Orientalism, particularly in gaming fiction, has been a trend and trope for many years that has made our East Asian friends within this hobby feel unwelcome and regarded as strange. With these edits, we present a more well-rounded, better developed, and above all inclusive expansion to the Conan roleplaying game.

Finally, it’s been noted that the credits for the two authors and editor of the initial version have been removed. This isn’t a punishment, it was done so at their request, and we’ve honoured that. We would have happily published their credits if they had wanted."

To hell with them.

[lordyam]

Honestly, I disagree. You can capture Howard without being a racist shithead, and many of the things he's done have NOT aged well. I get wanting to capture the spirit but sometimes the right thing is to just change things. Saying "to hell with them" seems petulant, and ignoring that racism is still very much a problem in today's society.

[bunty0barbarian]

lordyam, from a business point of view, these braindead censors, make no sense at all. A Conan RPG, is a niche, specific product right? So a person who will be primarily interested in it, will either be familiar with the movies, comics, or books, and for most part would be satisfied with the product, and wouldn't bat an eye at the outdated elements. Alternatively they could've hired a Howard scholar, like Patrice Louinet, and have him put the offensive parts in context. This would've been informational, instead of this censorship.

It is censorship, because that part about Vendhyan caste system being all encompassing? And toning it down? Yeah that is bullshit, because as an Indian, the caste system is all encompassing. It hovers over every Indian, rich or poor, in terms of their birth, social status, and marriage. Other countries, like Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Nepal, and Bangladesh, have similar oppressive problems, and Modphius simply toning it down because offensives is just, silly, and pretending it doesn't exist is a big problem.

Basically, Howard's works isn't of the 21st Century. Any modern product, in my opinion to the maximum extent, should reflect REH's works, warts and all. Conan the Wanderer, is a victim of unnecessary censorship by committee.

[themirrorthief]

who is making people read Howard??? ever hear of freedom of choice

[lordyam]

Nov 10, 2020 1:01:42 GMT -5 bunty0barbarian said:

lordyam, from a business point of view, these braindead censors, make no sense at all. A Conan RPG, is a niche, specific product right? So a person who will be primarily interested in it, will either be familiar with the movies, comics, or books, and for most part would be satisfied with the product, and wouldn't bat an eye at the outdated elements. Alternatively they could've hired a Howard scholar, like Patrice Louinet, and have him put the offensive parts in context. This would've been informational, instead of this censorship.

It is censorship, because that part about Vendhyan caste system being all encompassing? And toning it down? Yeah that is bullshit, because as an Indian, the caste system is all encompassing. It hovers over every Indian, rich or poor, in terms of their birth, social status, and marriage. Other countries, like Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Nepal, and Bangladesh, have similar oppressive problems, and Modphius simply toning it down because offensives is just, silly, and pretending it doesn't exist is a big problem.

Basically, Howard's works isn't of the 21st Century. Any modern product, in my opinion to the maximum extent, should reflect REH's works, warts and all. Conan the Wanderer, is a victim of unnecessary censorship by committee.

In practice you want to get new readers. One of the reason the great comics crash of 96 occurred was because they spurned the idea of getting new readers aboard. 

The caste system is a thing yes. The chinese men in opium dens however is not only overblown but plays into a LOT of racist propaganda that was used to justify actual violence.

It's a tough balance but saying "oh who cares don't expunge the warts" is being a fool.

[wulfhere]

The Hyborian Age was built from history, myth, legends and, yes, even stereotypes. It is what it is. Why even read Howard if you can't deal with this?
If someone is too sensitive to handle a fictional world that does not meet their 21st century delicate sensibilities why don't they leave the Hyborian world to those who enjoy it as it is and go play in some watered down D&D generic fantasyland.

[deepermagic]

Nov 9, 2020 14:50:53 GMT -5 wulfhere said:

In discussing these concerns with Cabinet themselves, they confirmed to us that anything new that is published derived from Robert E Howard’s work is pastiche, and as such should be fitting for a modern audience. This new version of Wanderer, and all of its changes, was approved by them.

Anything derived "should be fitting for a modern audience". This is confirmed by Cabinet themselves. This should be a concern for the upcoming Conan show on Netflix.

[Von K]

I understand the intention, but the execution leaves somewhat to be desired. I can see why the original writers and editor don't want their name on this.

Here's the discussion on Modiphius' forum.

forums.modiphius.com/t/about-the-changes-in-the-new-version-of-conan-the-wanderer/13295/40

Will comment more when I get time to fully read through it.

[terryallenuk]

I can understand having to make some changes this day and age but “exotic” and “mysterious” , sigh

[Deleted]

Nov 10, 2020 12:09:41 GMT -5 Von K said:

I understand the intention, but the execution leaves somewhat to be desired. I can see why the original writers and editor don't want their name on this.

Here's the discussion on Modiphius' forum.

forums.modiphius.com/t/about-the-changes-in-the-new-version-of-conan-the-wanderer/13295/40

Will comment more when I get time to fully read through it.

Thanks for the link Von K.

I found it interesting reading through some of the comments at the KS Campaign and the Forum.

Why did Modiphius not sort this out with the original Source Book and allow such ridiculous alterations to the Wanderer volume? I'm pretty certain the eastern lands were just as exotic and mysterious in the very first volume titled Conan...Adventures in an Age Undreamed of. 

The timing sucks...especially considering the recent announcement of the Netflix deal.

[bunty0barbarian]

For a cult property like Modiphius Conan, how will they attract new players, if they can't even attract the targeted players? If they want to attract new players, Modiphius, should have in the faith in the property, instead of scraping the outdated elements under the rug. As I said, they could've put some annotations, explained the context, but I guess "editing" it is a much easier task.

For example, I persuaded my sister to try some Conan stories. She found it meh, but she absolutely loved Kull, Bran Mak Morn, and is currently reading The Del Rey horror collection, read the first Tarzan and Princess of Mars. She understands the offensive elements, but also appreciates the fun elements.

That is how you attract new players/readers, by having faith in the property. If not, then what is the point of adapting it? Creatively, I mean other than milking the brand recognition.

The point still stands, if a company, wants to "exploit", I mean adapt, an old pulp property, changes, will be made I am sure, but it shouldn't compromise the spirit of property. Honestly, I can't imagine anyone finding words like exotic, mysterious, and martial arts, with respect to the Hyborian Age offensive. A property like Fu Manchu, perhaps, but a made up diverse fantasy world? If such a person exists, then he/she isn't a prospective buyer in the first place.

[lordyam]

Having read the discussion, I honestly sympathize more with Shran. His points are legitimate, and saying "well don't get involved....." No that's horseshit. I've encountered younger people (my age) who are interested in Conan; I'm a millennial and I've loved the stories since I was 14. But even then the race elements could be bothersome. There are other potential readers (POC, millennials) who would be turned off by the blatant racism. You can keep the original stories as they are (in fact you should) but any ADAPTATION needs to make changes (if Vale of Lost Women was played straight the creators would be crucified).


To be honest a lot of the attitude here seems to be "fuck what POC and others want, I want MY version and fuck anyone who is offended." I love Conan. I also feel that if it doesn't adapt it will vanish into oblivion.

Purists of any fandom really can be obnoxious.

[Deleted]

Nov 10, 2020 15:34:55 GMT -5 lordyam said:

Having read the discussion, I honestly sympathize more with Shran. His points are legitimate, and saying "well don't get involved....." No that's horseshit. I've encountered younger people (my age) who are interested in Conan; I'm a millennial and I've loved the stories since I was 14. But even then the race elements could be bothersome. There are other potential readers (POC, millennials) who would be turned off by the blatant racism. You can keep the original stories as they are (in fact you should) but any ADAPTATION needs to make changes (if Vale of Lost Women was played straight the creators would be crucified).


To be honest a lot of the attitude here seems to be "fuck what POC and others want, I want MY version and fuck anyone who is offended." I love Conan. I also feel that if it doesn't adapt it will vanish into oblivion.

Purists of any fandom really can be obnoxious.

You seemed pretty content with the representation of the Eastern kingdoms when you acquired the core book a couple of years ago. They described the East as Mysterious and Exotic in the relevant chapters back then. Why the change of heart now?

If I remember correctly you were primarily concerned about the chronology and geography. Maybe, you're a purist at heart? 

[lordyam]

I noticed but I didn't push the issue. But believe me I noticed. I assumed that since they were going for purism that they'd make a few small changes.

I get wanting to be true to the source but I also think that there needs to be some flexibility and a lot of Howard Purists don't really grasp that.

My stance: Keep the howard stories as they are. Unaltered. No changes. Acknowledge that Howard was a man of his time and place. Adaptations however, should be more willing to be flexible for modern sensibilities.

[Deleted]

Nov 10, 2020 16:46:52 GMT -5 lordyam said:

I noticed but I didn't push the issue. But believe me I noticed. I assumed that since they were going for purism that they'd make a few small changes.

I get wanting to be true to the source but I also think that there needs to be some flexibility and a lot of Howard Purists don't really grasp that.

My stance: Keep the howard stories as they are. Unaltered. No changes. Acknowledge that Howard was a man of his time and place. Adaptations however, should be more willing to be flexible for modern sensibilities.

The RPG is well researched and respectful to the source material, but it is pastiche, it could not be purist even if it tried and I think most REH fans know that. 

What's the point in changing the descriptions in the Wanderer volume if the East remains Mysterious and Exotic in the Core source book? Just don't make sense.

It's a huge mistake for Modiphius and Cabinet to take this stance now, stirring up controversy around REH and Conan with a potential new series on the horizon with Netflix. Look at the comments found at the Kickstarter campaign, and at the Modiphius forum and now here. This is all very self-destructive by Cabinet/Modiphius.