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Post by mingerganthecat on Jun 22, 2022 11:31:33 GMT -5
There's the Styx and Zarkheba obviously, then there's the Khorotas of Argos, and probably some analogues to the Ganges and the Yangtze whose names I've forgotten. But looking at Conan's world, I see surprisingly few analogues to the river and canal systems of Central Europe that played such a vital role to trade and transportation in the Middle Ages and Renaissance.
How far up the Khorotas or its tributaries can merchant barges travel? For that matter, is there any serious speculation on how many navigable rivers exist in the Hyborian Kingdoms? I'm looking specifically for material from Howard himself rather than latter pastiche writers, though I am open to their suggestions as well. I remember one series of children's cartoons that had barges going as far inland as Brythunia.
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Post by cromfelge on Jun 24, 2022 6:46:17 GMT -5
I think Hyboria is a typical example of fantasy worlds underestimating rivers and especially transportation through rivers.
I wouldn't know many situations in which Howard described any travelling on them - that doesn't mean it is not a thing and I'd suppose that we can act on the assumption that it is happening a lot. But we can't find a lot about that in Conan.
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Post by Von K on Jun 24, 2022 14:30:12 GMT -5
REH's early maps were mostly of the political so didn't show many geographical features as such maps generally don't. Nevertheless he wrote of quite a few rivers (Black River, Thunder River, Shirki, Zaporoska, Ilbars etc as well as those you've mentioned and more) and there are later maps out there which give a glimpse of potential geographical features Here's one example:  The Modiphius Conan rpg map (not the one above) was put together with consultation with REH scholars so is likely the most accurate if you can grab a hq version. It contains the most accurate likely position for the city of Yaralet for instance. Here's a fuller list of rivers, though a few of these may be pastiche: conan.fandom.com/wiki/Gazetteer |
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Post by mingerganthecat on Jun 25, 2022 11:20:36 GMT -5
Thanks, cromfelge and Von K. I think I rather like that map, even if there's apparently not a single major river in Khitai.  www.nobleknight.com/P/2147747246/Paper-Map-BundleThis appears to be the Modiphius map. Low res, but I believe Yaralet is the city on the Zaporoska River, flowing out of Koth and into Turan |
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Post by Von K on Jun 27, 2022 14:18:09 GMT -5
Thanks, cromfelge and Von K. I think I rather like that map, even if there's apparently not a single major river in Khitai. www.nobleknight.com/P/2147747246/Paper-Map-BundleThis appears to be the Modiphius map. Low res, but I believe Yaralet is the city on the Zaporoska River, flowing out of Koth and into Turan Here's a better version of the Modiphius map from a link on their own website:  Right click and choose the open image in new tab option. |
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Post by mingerganthecat on Jun 28, 2022 7:20:02 GMT -5
Interesting. Sucks to be Nemedia, the Border Kingdom, Corinthia and Brythunia I guess. Styx looks really weird with that sharp elbow, but it isn't unfeasible.
Zamora's borders are a lot less mountainous than typically depicted, which is either a very good thing or a very bad thing for them.
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Post by Von K on Jun 29, 2022 14:12:48 GMT -5
Interesting. Sucks to be Nemedia, the Border Kingdom, Corinthia and Brythunia I guess. Styx looks really weird with that sharp elbow, but it isn't unfeasible. Zamora's borders are a lot less mountainous than typically depicted, which is either a very good thing or a very bad thing for them. REH never wrote of any of Conan's adventures in Border Kingdoms, Corinthia, Brythunia and Nemedia, apart from his brief time in Belverus in Hour of the Dragon. If he had REH would almost certainly have mentioned some of the rivers which we can assume would likely exist in those regions (see previous map for an example). The Modiphius map however was designed to be based on info as purely from REH's existing material as possible, thus there are only a few speculative worldbuilding elements added. |
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Post by boot on Jul 16, 2022 13:17:36 GMT -5
What is "Hyboria". The time in which Conan lived is called the Hyborian Age, but "Hyboria" is not a place.
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Post by Von K on Jul 16, 2022 13:45:58 GMT -5
What is "Hyboria". The time in which Conan lived is called the Hyborian Age, but "Hyboria" is not a place. That's true boot. I'll just post a link to the thread you started on this topic way back: swordsofreh.proboards.com/thread/1275/hyboria |
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Post by mingerganthecat on Jul 16, 2022 14:23:36 GMT -5
What is "Hyboria". The time in which Conan lived is called the Hyborian Age, but "Hyboria" is not a place. I would count Hyboria as both a time and a place, especially given the distinct changes in geography. |
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Post by boot on Jul 16, 2022 21:45:05 GMT -5
What is "Hyboria". The time in which Conan lived is called the Hyborian Age, but "Hyboria" is not a place. That's true boot. I'll just post a link to the thread you started on this topic way back: swordsofreh.proboards.com/thread/1275/hyboria LOL! I had forgotten about that, but it doesn't surprise me. |
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Post by boot on Jul 16, 2022 21:46:14 GMT -5
What is "Hyboria". The time in which Conan lived is called the Hyborian Age, but "Hyboria" is not a place. I would count Hyboria as both a time and a place, especially given the distinct changes in geography. Are the Black Kingdoms, the Pictish Wilderness, Cimmeria, Khitai, Turan, and the Hyrkanian steppes all in Hyboria? Do even the Nemedian scholars, who are Hyborians and live in a Hyborian kinddom, name their world as "Hyboria"? |
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Post by mingerganthecat on Jul 17, 2022 23:03:33 GMT -5
I would count Hyboria as both a time and a place, especially given the distinct changes in geography. Are the Black Kingdoms, the Pictish Wilderness, Cimmeria, Khitai, Turan, and the Hyrkanian steppes all in Hyboria? Do even the Nemedian scholars, who are Hyborians and live in a Hyborian kinddom, name their world as "Hyboria"? Was Islamic Mali, Skraeling Vinland, Alpínid Scotland, the Song Dynasty, the Seljuk Turks and the Golden Horde all in Medieval? Did even the Italian/Byzantine scholars, who were Latins/Grecians and lived in a Latin/Orthodox kingdom, name their world as "Medieval"? No. No one until 19th century thought to use the phrase medium aevum to refer to those places. But that doesn't make it any less useful. If I make a thread about "Medieval Navigable Rivers," people are going to know exactly what I'm talking about. The focus may or may not be Eurocentic to a degree, but no one's going to argue that, say, the Jing-Hang Grand Canal doesn't count on the grounds of it having been built outside of Europe by people largely unaffected by either the fall of Rome or the fall of Byzantium. |
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Post by boot on Jul 18, 2022 16:10:02 GMT -5
Are the Black Kingdoms, the Pictish Wilderness, Cimmeria, Khitai, Turan, and the Hyrkanian steppes all in Hyboria? Do even the Nemedian scholars, who are Hyborians and live in a Hyborian kinddom, name their world as "Hyboria"? Was Islamic Mali, Skraeling Vinland, Alpínid Scotland, the Song Dynasty, the Seljuk Turks and the Golden Horde all in Medieval? Did even the Italian/Byzantine scholars, who were Latins/Grecians and lived in a Latin/Orthodox kingdom, name their world as "Medieval"? No. No one until 19th century thought to use the phrase medium aevum to refer to those places. But that doesn't make it any less useful. If I make a thread about "Medieval Navigable Rivers," people are going to know exactly what I'm talking about. The difference is that there is no culture called "Medieval". If you made a thread about "Viking Navigable Rivers", people aren't going to know exactly what you're talking about. Would that be rivers that the raiders used on their raids? Rivers in their homelands? If you made a thread about "Hyborian Navigable Rivers", then I would assume you mean rivers of the Hyborian Kingdoms and not outside of those. If you made a thread about "Hyborian Age Navigable Rivers", then I would know you're talking about any river in the known world. When someone uses the term "Hyboria" to describe Conan's known world, then it usually tells me that person really doesn't know his Conan that well (BTW, that comes across as strong, but I don't mean it as an insult. Please don't take it that way.) |
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Post by mingerganthecat on Jul 19, 2022 3:31:21 GMT -5
Was Islamic Mali, Skraeling Vinland, Alpínid Scotland, the Song Dynasty, the Seljuk Turks and the Golden Horde all in Medieval? Did even the Italian/Byzantine scholars, who were Latins/Grecians and lived in a Latin/Orthodox kingdom, name their world as "Medieval"? No. No one until 19th century thought to use the phrase medium aevum to refer to those places. But that doesn't make it any less useful. If I make a thread about "Medieval Navigable Rivers," people are going to know exactly what I'm talking about. The difference is that there is no culture called "Medieval". If you made a thread about "Viking Navigable Rivers", people aren't going to know exactly what you're talking about. Would that be rivers that the raiders used on their raids? Rivers in their homelands? If you made a thread about "Hyborian Navigable Rivers", then I would assume you mean rivers of the Hyborian Kingdoms and not outside of those. If you made a thread about "Hyborian Age Navigable Rivers", then I would know you're talking about any river in the known world. When someone uses the term "Hyboria" to describe Conan's known world, then it usually tells me that person really doesn't know his Conan that well (BTW, that comes across as strong, but I don't mean it as an insult. Please don't take it that way.) There are plenty of cultures that would be called Medieval, in that they primarily existed only in the Medieval Era. The Franks come immediately to mind. In the early Middle Ages, Francia was so closely linked to the concept of Medieval Europeans that Muslim scholars referred to all of Christian Europe as Frangistan. Hmm, Navigable Rivers of Frangistan... Anyway, "Viking" is a profession, not a culture (maybe a subculture). As such, yes, Viking Navigable Rivers or Viking-Age Navigable Rivers would likely refer to the rivers that Vikings used for raiding, trade, settlement, and so on. If I only wanted to know about navigable rivers that existed in the areas where Vikings typically came from, I would make a thread about Navigable Rivers of Norseland or Navigable Rivers of Scandinavia. Navigable Rivers of Early-Medieval Fennoscandia if I'm feeling especially autistic.  But looking at Conan's world, I see surprisingly few analogues to the river and canal systems of Central Europe that played such a vital role to trade and transportation in the Middle Ages and Renaissance. Anyway, I am mostly interested in navigable rivers in the Hyborian Kingdoms specifically. I have secondary interest in any major navigable rivers that might have existed elsewhere in the Hyborian Age, and I still think that Hyboria is a useful short-hand for one or both of those. However, if this is the type of arrant pedantry up with which you want to put, then... |
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