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Post by boot on Aug 17, 2018 9:34:21 GMT -5
I wonder how 2d20 is selling, too. On the one hand, Modiphius has put out several Conan supplements and adventures. That's a sign of health. And, I think that Modiphius won an Ennie or two or three--not completely sure about that.
On the other hand, NOBODY is talking about this game. Go to a site like enWorld and do a search for "Conan" in the d20 3E forum. There are tons of threads about Mongoose's game, when it came out--lots of activity, with people excited about it. The volume dwarfs that of any 2d20 discussion, and Mongoose went on with their Conan RPG for a decade, using it as their flagship game.
I spoke with a GM who ran 2d20 Star Trek not too long ago. At first, he was incredibly excited about the game. Then, his group played and adventure and a half. He said that his group just started maxing out their dice rolls every time that they rolled for anything. They didn't care about the Doom Pool. They just let it grow. The GM kept using it to go against the party using the Doom spends, but the players would just roll the maximum amount of dice in response.
He said that it just got out of hand. The Gimmick wore off, and he thinks that, although he was at first enamored with the system, that he's found its major flaw. Now, that GM and the group is disillusioned with 2d20, to say the least.
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Post by Von K on Aug 18, 2018 15:41:35 GMT -5
Speaking of enworld, their Conan page where they collate reviews gives Modiphius' Conan: Adventures in an Age Undreamed Of an overall 83.5% score: www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?520368-Conan-Adventures-in-an-Age-Undreamed-OfAll the reviewers gave it a 5 out of 5 star rating, with plenty of praise, except for the one called Water Bob (he sounds alot like yourself Boot as he shares the exact same opinions as you are expressing above). Water Bob gave it a miserly 1 out of 5, simply it seems to stop it getting closer to the 100% score it would otherwise have had. # You can get a sense of how well the game is selling - you can partly gauge by the sellers categories on drivethrurpg.com Modiphius Core Conan Players Book = a Platinum seller = the top category = sales are in the top 1% of all the products on the site. One expansion is in the next top category which is gold ie top 2% of all the titles sold on the site. Many of the rest of the expansions are Electrum sellers in the top 5% of all titles. And that is in addition to the great success of the initial Kickstarter campaign. Those look like derned impressive sales figures to me.
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Post by boot on Aug 18, 2018 16:10:04 GMT -5
Those look like derned impressive sales figures to me. Well, if it is selling well, I am glad. I don't think either one of us really knows for sure, but let's assume that it is. As for the reviews you cite, there are not that many of them--not enough to rely on the sample. What it is, is a handful of people who like the game. People not interested, or most of those who don't like the game, are ignoring it. I know the game is not for me as I can't stand the rules. And, I do know that there is a sizable group of gamers out there who feel alienated from the game and refuse to play it simply because of the rules.
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Post by Von K on Aug 18, 2018 17:09:59 GMT -5
I know the game is not for me as I can't stand the rules. And, I do know that there is a sizable group of gamers out there who feel alienated from the game and refuse to play it simply because of the rules. Well, you are certainly entirely entitled to your opinion. There are more reviews over on drivethrurpg and a few more on Amazon and over at rpg.net to name some other sites. I like to judge an rpg by more than just whether or not I like the rules. Modiphius Conan rpg has so much more to offer than its rules. Some of the people who bought it just wanted to collect it for the amazing artwork for instance. Or it's presentation, or it's evocation of the Hyborian Age and it's lore and of pulp style adventure. When I bought the first iteration of the Serenity rpg I disliked the core dice mechanic but still love the book for its magnificent presentation and evocation of the 'verse. I seem to recall Waldgeist shared some of your views when we discussed this on the old forum, but that didn't prevent him backing the kickstarter at Yezdigerd's Hoard level.
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Post by boot on Aug 18, 2018 17:52:04 GMT -5
There are more reviews over on drivethrurpg and a few more on Amazon and over at rpg.net to name some other sites. A few, here and there, yes. But, even total together, it's only a handful. Add to that that, as I said before, there are very few threads where gamers are talking about the game. Also as I said before, if you do a search on enWorld for "Conan" in the d20 forum, you'll find tons and tons of threads about the Conan rpg from Mongoose when it came out. I like most rules. There are very few game system I dislike as intensely as the 2d20 system. Rules are a HUGE part of the game. I don't like games with gimmicky systems. I don't want to play an RPG that uses, say, a deck of ordinary playing cards for task resolution (there are some games like that). 2d20 almost falls into that category. Where Modiphius failed, imo, is shoe-horning a very specific, non-traditional system (the Mutant Chronicles mechanics) into every game they have. Rules need to make sense. The way Doom plays out, it makes no sense for Conan. If the plan were to come up with a system that would fit a lot of different games, then a more generic task resolution system should have been created. I can't fathom why the people at Modiphius thought a game system like 2d20 that is so specific to Mutant Chronicles would fit into other game universes. Sure, d20 is adaptable to multiple games. So is D6. So is GURPS. So is a lot of other games. But, those are all traditional, generic systems. The Doom aspect of 2d20 is very specific to Dark Symmetry, and it has no place in a game like Conan or Star Trek or Dune. I'm not going to support a game that has messed up this big. If Modiphius could somehow remove the Doom pool mechanic from the game, that would go a long way to changing my mind on the system. But, I don't think that's possible. The Doom mechanic is too ingrained in the overall system.
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Post by boot on Aug 18, 2018 18:04:46 GMT -5
Now, let me say something positive about the game.
Just about every other aspect of the Modiphius Conan rpg is attractive. It's got some nice artwork. It's got some adventure support. It's got some very good people behind it (who are handcuffed by the 2d20 system--they've got no choice in that). And, the rules even have some great ideas in them.
This game, with a better game system, would be FANTASTIC!
As it is, with 2d20, it's a total disappointment.
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Post by deepermagic on Aug 20, 2018 9:51:29 GMT -5
I would welcome a new set of game rules to Conan universe. I'm definitely not married to d20 Conan. I recognize it as a superior version of d20, but the game is not perfect. The required prep-time and d20 stat blocks keeps me from playing as much as I would like. I compare d20 Conan prep to something like D6 Star Wars, and it's a no brainer. D6 SW is something that a GM can set up in an instant, on the fly, as soon as a GM thinks of it. Not so with d20 Conan, and the d20 game has a much steeper learning curve. I think somewhere around here I'd mentioned that a D6 SW type Conan would be awesome. My biggest problem isn't necessarily faulty mechanics of 2d20 (though I don't really like the mechanics) but it's just another system that needs to be learned for a group of people that already don't have enough time to learn a new system. I know that's more of a personal problem than anything wrong with the game, but a lighter/intuitive rule system like D6 goes a long way into possibly drawing busy folks in to give it a try. Also, it might be kind of cool if Modiphius released a 5th Edition (D&D) version like The One Ring/Adventures in Middle Earth did. Again, it might not perfectly scratch the itch mechanically speaking, but it'd certainly get more game time. As of now, I'm not buying the 2d20 version just because folks I play with don't want to learn a new system. But I'd jump all over a 5E version and so would they, simply because it's familiar.
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Post by boot on Aug 20, 2018 18:36:42 GMT -5
I'd definitely buy Modiphius' Conan game if it used D&D 5E or D6. Especially D6. Since Star Wars has gone over to FFG (and another screwy system), D6 is an INCREDIBLE game system that needs a good game to power.
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Post by Von K on Aug 20, 2018 19:01:00 GMT -5
I would welcome a new set of game rules to Conan universe. I'm definitely not married to d20 Conan. I recognize it as a superior version of d20, but the game is not perfect. The required prep-time and d20 stat blocks keeps me from playing as much as I would like. I compare d20 Conan prep to something like D6 Star Wars, and it's a no brainer. D6 SW is something that a GM can set up in an instant, on the fly, as soon as a GM thinks of it. Not so with d20 Conan, and the d20 game has a much steeper learning curve. I think somewhere around here I'd mentioned that a D6 SW type Conan would be awesome. My biggest problem isn't necessarily faulty mechanics of 2d20 (though I don't really like the mechanics) but it's just another system that needs to be learned for a group of people that already don't have enough time to learn a new system. I know that's more of a personal problem than anything wrong with the game, but a lighter/intuitive rule system like D6 goes a long way into possibly drawing busy folks in to give it a try. Also, it might be kind of cool if Modiphius released a 5th Edition (D&D) version like The One Ring/Adventures in Middle Earth did. Again, it might not perfectly scratch the itch mechanically speaking, but it'd certainly get more game time. As of now, I'm not buying the 2d20 version just because folks I play with don't want to learn a new system. But I'd jump all over a 5E version and so would they, simply because it's familiar. That's one of the more practical considerations Deepermagic as gamers do tend to get set in their preferences. I find the full d6 system a little overly complex, but the trimmed down Mini Six Bare Bones Edition (by AntiPaladin games) looks great. There are some interesting tweaks in Mini Six that could be carried over to d6. WEG and d6 are now in the hands of Nocturnal Media, company of the late Stewart Wieck. A new version may be in development. Both d6 and d20 had many years of development before they hit their peak popularity. It's easy to forget that D+D had been refined for at least two decades and 3.5 editions with collective input from countless developers and gamers before Mongoose began their Conan version whereas 2d20 is still relatively young as a system. As you say Boot stat block complexity is an issue. The designer of Savage Worlds has described how he spent several hours one evening designing a single character for a D+D scenario he was writing, double checking all the prerequisites for the stat and level linked feat requirements etc and thought "there's gotta be an easier way than this." Thus was the lean mean and mighty Savage Worlds born.
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Post by boot on Aug 20, 2018 19:50:29 GMT -5
All versions of D6 are fantastic, in my opinion. But, my preference is for the simple first edition.
D6 is a game system that I can't believe never took off. I think it just came out at the wrong time--back when each game had its own mechanics.
D6 can be crunchy, or it can easily be fast and heroic.
It's an easy system to learn, easy to master, easy to teach to players.
And, NPCs can be created in, literally, a snap.
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Post by darthgall on Aug 20, 2018 20:41:31 GMT -5
A few notes from a guy who has no time to game b/c of family/job time demands and therefore hasn’t played.... I like Modiphius b/c I’m inspired by the art & character background generators, and the Hyborian fluff. I recently bought the GM toolkit bc it has a hyborian story generator; I love those things & use them as inspiration for fiction. I also really like how they linked different locales w/ different adventure styles... that’s a cool idea and I’m eagerly awaiting Conan the Pirate in print. Finally I know Water Bob is all in on Mongoose Conan (I’m subscribed to a wonderful thread from enworld called “3.5 GMs Closet for Conan”) but I really like simpler, faster, less detailed rules. And for that I’ll leave this here: Conan for Castles & Crusades. D20 light, so no one really has to learn a new system! www.trolllord.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9495&sid=88a721bc6dfdfae492b100bca093b56c&start=30So if stars lined up and I had a group so inclined, I’d probably run that bc you can steal any d20 stuff and just drop other parts, and steal Modiphius character backgrounds, and 5e’s advantage/disadvantage, etc...
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Post by thulsadoom on Aug 20, 2018 20:54:11 GMT -5
I haven’t looked at it yet, but I wanted to say I love the domain name 😂
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Post by boot on Aug 20, 2018 21:00:38 GMT -5
d20 definitely does have a learning curve associated with it. It's a good system, but it requires a TON of GM time. Once you learn the system, it pays for itself with massive dividends. But, getting to that level is not easy.
The massive dividends of which I refer are all the little perks that players get. The fun thing about d20 is that characters are always improving--and players like that. They adventure. They get experience points. They advance. They get more hit points, that makes them more viable in combat. They get new Feats--special abilities-s they level. They get new and better skills. There are all sorts of class related perks.
It if fun to level in d20, and players become addicted to it.
I've even seen players get so much enjoyment from the constant character improvement that d20 brings to the table that the same players are bored when playing a game like D6, where there is some advancement, but the game is more about the plain old experience of gaming. The players often can't put their finger on what they don't like about these systems, but something is missing for them. It's fun, but not as fun.
As a GM, though, who has got to put a lot of work into game before hand, I love the simplicity of a system like D6. If I think of something--a new character--during a game, it's a lot easier to quickly assign D6 stats and be done with it. It's not at all like d20 where you've got so many things to figure--and wonder if the NPC has all the prequalifications for what you just gave him.
d20 is A LOT of work for the GM. But, players flat out love the game.
And, dedicated players is a good thing.
I'd drop Mongoose d20 Conan in a heartbeat if a better alternative came out. Just for grins, I introduced 2d20 to my group one night, and all of them--to a person--hated it. They feel the way I do. There was no way I was changing from our d20 game for that.
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Post by boot on Aug 20, 2018 21:07:48 GMT -5
I h aven’t looked at it yet, but I wanted to say I love the domain name 😂W Which one? enWorld? Thulsa, you still playing Pathfinder in your world of Xoth? You might be interested to know that I have incorporated two of your adventures into may Conan sandbox. I'm using Song of the Beast-Gods, heavily modified, as the basis for a city on the border of Argos and Shem. Instead of what you have in the adventure, I have the place being run by what's left over of the witch coven from the 2011 Conan film. I expanded Marique's story, and they even have her remains (smashed remains, dug from the Skull Cave) in the palace. Plus, I'm using The Necromancer's Knife, from The Spider God's Bride, as the priestly part of town--going with your suggesting of having them worship Nergal. This, I used as a base, altered it quite a bit, then added a lot of stuff I created on my own. I hope to be starting it soon with my players.
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Post by deepermagic on Aug 22, 2018 10:37:52 GMT -5
I think somewhere around here I'd mentioned that a D6 SW type Conan would be awesome. My biggest problem isn't necessarily faulty mechanics of 2d20 (though I don't really like the mechanics) but it's just another system that needs to be learned for a group of people that already don't have enough time to learn a new system. I know that's more of a personal problem than anything wrong with the game, but a lighter/intuitive rule system like D6 goes a long way into possibly drawing busy folks in to give it a try. Also, it might be kind of cool if Modiphius released a 5th Edition (D&D) version like The One Ring/Adventures in Middle Earth did. Again, it might not perfectly scratch the itch mechanically speaking, but it'd certainly get more game time. As of now, I'm not buying the 2d20 version just because folks I play with don't want to learn a new system. But I'd jump all over a 5E version and so would they, simply because it's familiar. That's one of the more practical considerations Deepermagic as gamers do tend to get set in their preferences. I find the full d6 system a little overly complex, but the trimmed down Mini Six Bare Bones Edition (by AntiPaladin games) looks great. There are some interesting tweaks in Mini Six that could be carried over to d6. WEG and d6 are now in the hands of Nocturnal Media, company of the late Stewart Wieck. A new version may be in development. Both d6 and d20 had many years of development before they hit their peak popularity. It's easy to forget that D+D had been refined for at least two decades and 3.5 editions with collective input from countless developers and gamers before Mongoose began their Conan version whereas 2d20 is still relatively young as a system. As you say Boot stat block complexity is an issue. The designer of Savage Worlds has described how he spent several hours one evening designing a single character for a D+D scenario he was writing, double checking all the prerequisites for the stat and level linked feat requirements etc and thought "there's gotta be an easier way than this." Thus was the lean mean and mighty Savage Worlds born. I didn't realize anyone took over WEG. I just figured it sort of died away. They ought to re-release some of the old stuff (though it is fun to treasure hunt for them in used book stores). I was blown away by the ease and fun of Star Wars. The Force was kind of wonky, but boot is right, character creation is a snap. I can't quite remember, but I might have tweaked how the fighting/action initiative worked. But it certainly delivers up an quick fun action packed game that doesn't get bogged down. Thinking about it again, it really probably wouldn't be that hard to create a custom Conan d6 game... I might have to pull out some of my old d6 books.
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