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Post by Von K on Aug 29, 2023 12:06:47 GMT -5
In general I'd tend to agree with that notion - I'd rather safer actors and a slightly toned down combat than a fraught combat with unsafe actors. I prefer the tension to come from the drama rather than from the actor's themselves being actually at risk during the filming.
Other's may disagree though, and perhaps rightly. There were quite a few injuries filming Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy. Viggo Mortensen lost a tooth in one incident and had to spontaneously parry with his sword in mid flight a dagger thrown at him by accident during one combat scene. Henry Cavill got a hamstring injury filming the Witcher. Dwayne Johnson tore a ligament filming Hercules. A certain degree of risk may be necessary to getting the best results.
When the actors, choreographers and directors are committed to taking calculated risks to get the best results, what they produce can go down in cinema history like the famous duel from The Deluge.
I suppose the challenge is always getting that balance right, between safety during the choreography of a fight scene and a semblance of realism for the audiences. Agreed. Some commenters have said that the duel in The Deluge is unrealistic because the more experienced duelist would have ended the fight in ten seconds - but I think they miss the point that he didn't actually want to kill the other guy. There are personalities, honour and a certain larger context at play. The Colonel manages to defuse a very tense situation by playing on one of his greatest strengths, his swordsmanship.
One youtuber commented that one should always be wary of a small man who commands the respect and allegiance of so many big men.
But this plays into one of the points made by Hank Reinhardt in the interview you posted which also relates to the Indy scene - different cultures have different expectations about the rules of engagement. Without being able to call upon the honour of oaths being respected in their culture the Colonel would not have been able to convince his opponent to duel. Which kind of plays into what Sun Tzu said about knowing your enemy.
Great interview. That book is a classic in it's field. He also wrote another classic on knife fighting. The author was also a friend of Conan writer John Maddox Roberts, who is a member of this forum but hasn't checked in here for a while. My memory is vague but I think JMR recommended that book back on the old forum. To my shame I have not read it yet but will have to pick up a copy soon along with it's companion volume.
Thanks for the reminder and the recommendation kemp!
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Post by kemp on Aug 30, 2023 7:50:42 GMT -5
You bring up something else that is of important consideration Von K, something that goes beyond martial prowess and fighting styles, and may help us to understand why for most of history so many men engaged in brutal close combat with weapons such as spears, axes and swords without fear of death or injury, or rather, with an acceptance of sudden death as part of the life cycle. 'One youtuber commented that one should always be wary of a small man who commands the respect and allegiance of so many big men.' Yes, leaders such as Napoleon Bonaparte and Alexander the Great, stature on the short side, but they commanded great armies which would have been comprised of many big men. Some of these codes of honour, warrior duels, seem to have been common to both eastern and western cultures, at least until contemporary times. There was a story of a Serb Montenegrin Alexander Lekso Saicic who took part in the Russo Japanese War of 1904 -05. Story goes that the Japanese general sent a message to the Russians demanding that their best fighter come up against their samurai champion. Saicic answered the call. 'Two man met in the middle of the battle field and the duel started. After taking several serious blows (he never fully recovered from these wounds), Saichich somehow managed to defeat the samurai. Samurai’s horse has swept away, dragging his masters’s dead body whose feet stuck in the stirrup. The corpse of a samurai knight fell a hundred meters before the first rows of the Japanese troops. Saichich drove up to the opponent, bowed and went galloping back to his. After winning the duel, Aleksandar Lexo Saichich became a Knight of the Order of St. Anne, the highest Russian award, and the owner of many other differences. In addition, the Russian government has identified him a good amount of gold Napoleons 40 annually for life. In the distant Manchuria, he was promoted to the rank of captain until the end of the war he commanded a squadron of horse-Amur Dragoons. Sabre, which he defeated samurai, now kept at the Military Museum in Moscow.' penglaimartialarts.blogspot.com/2019/02/there-is-never-ending-discussion-about.html
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Post by kemp on Aug 30, 2023 8:57:57 GMT -5
The culture, pre industrial way of life and belief systems of ancient and medieval people were vastly different from ours. Death and brutality was everywhere, harsh penalties for disobedience including public executions, dysentery and disease, real pandemics that decimated populations, harsh living conditions, you slaughtered your own meat in farms and towns. Let's face facts, so many of our ancestors were hard as nails, inside and out.
This obviously carried over into life and death combat, Christian Knights and Mohammedan Warriors believed in a rewarding afterlife for their contributions on the battlefield, Vikings would be honoured to die with a sword or axe in their hands, Valhalla awaited the brave.
Of course not everyone was throwing themselves at death, but it was an accepted part of life, for many fearlessness also came from a faith in their god or gods. We are probably on another spectrum of mankind's history.
I personally believe that we can not really understand the bravery and strength of ancient warriors. Perhaps to fight as they did, up close and personal with weapons that cleave and hack in long drawn out campaigns we would need to regain a certain outlook, at least in our western world. I am not advocating for a return to some sort of 'ideal', just trying to analyse what made them so different and affective in what they did.
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Post by Von K on Aug 30, 2023 13:46:31 GMT -5
Thanks Kemp, a remarkable man Saichich. I thought it worth also noting the bit about his Commander's reluctance to accept his request to duel:
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Post by Von K on Aug 30, 2023 13:59:54 GMT -5
The culture, pre industrial way of life and belief systems of ancient and medieval people were vastly different from ours. Death and brutality was everywhere, harsh penalties for disobedience including public executions, dysentery and disease, real pandemics that decimated populations, harsh living conditions, you slaughtered your own meat in farms and towns. Let's face facts, so many of our ancestors were hard as nails, inside and out. This obviously carried over into life and death combat, Christian Knights and Mohammedan Warriors believed in a rewarding afterlife for their contributions on the battlefield, Vikings would be honoured to die with a sword or axe in their hands, Valhalla awaited the brave. Of course not everyone was throwing themselves at death, but it was an accepted part of life, for many fearlessness also came from a faith in their god or gods. We are probably on another spectrum of mankind's history. I personally believe that we can not really understand the bravery and strength of ancient warriors. Perhaps to fight as they did, up close and personal with weapons that cleave and hack in long drawn out campaigns we would need to regain a certain outlook, at least in our western world. I am not advocating for a return to some sort of 'ideal', just trying to analyse what made them so different and affective in what they did. Probably part of why REH once referred to Conan as "an iron man in an age of iron men." Even in his time some elements of that still remained and he grew up on frontier tales of heroism and hardship.
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Post by kemp on Aug 30, 2023 18:15:38 GMT -5
Probably part of why REH once referred to Conan as "an iron man in an age of iron men." Even in his time some elements of that still remained and he grew up on frontier tales of heroism and hardship.
REH hit the nail on the head with that one.
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Post by kemp on Aug 31, 2023 19:05:25 GMT -5
The Harrison Ford dishonourable kill compilation would not be complete without this one.
The original scene.
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Post by Von K on Sept 1, 2023 16:30:35 GMT -5
The Harrison Ford dishonourable kill compilation would not be complete without this one. The original scene. Otherwise known as Han shoots first. Kinda prefer that original scene.
The later edits look awkward and nerfed (nerf herded?) and it's much more in character for Han to shoot first. Don't think Leigh Brackett would have approved of 'em either.
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Post by kemp on Sept 1, 2023 17:31:36 GMT -5
The Harrison Ford dishonourable kill compilation would not be complete without this one. The original scene. Otherwise known as Han shoots first. Kinda prefer that original scene.
The later edits look awkward and nerfed (nerf herded?) and it's much more in character for Han to shoot first. Don't think Leigh Brackett would have approved of 'em either.
I hated the edits, and in all honesty I think Han was probably seconds away from getting blasted by Greedo, so the original shoot first, admittedly unheroic, made sense in that context.
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Post by Jason Aiken on Sept 29, 2023 22:31:10 GMT -5
This popped up on my YouTube feed, another Polish film that seems to have accurate swordplay
Zrodzeni do Szabli / Born to the Sabre
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Post by kemp on Sept 29, 2023 23:02:55 GMT -5
This popped up on my YouTube feed, another Polish film that seems to have accurate swordplay Zrodzeni do Szabli / Born to the Sabre Yeah, the Poles also have a bit of a reputation for being badasses in the world of HEMA/historical martial arts, that includes the art of the saber as well as the longsword. Thanks for making us aware of this one Jason.
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Post by Von K on Sept 30, 2023 15:55:58 GMT -5
This popped up on my YouTube feed, another Polish film that seems to have accurate swordplay Zrodzeni do Szabli / Born to the Sabre That was great Jason, thanks!
Some more from Frontier Partisans:
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Post by kemp on Oct 1, 2023 7:32:33 GMT -5
There is a considerable amount of cross cutting in Polish sabre fencing, nothing is static, add speed to the equation and you can imagine the difficulty is shooting some of the above movie scenes and still keeping the actors safe, even with steel blunts.
I have no real idea about the similarities and connections between the Hungarian, Russian and Polish schools of sabre fencing, but the Cossacks have taken sabre cross cutting techniques to an insane level of skill. I think this video was posted on this thread some pages back, but here it is again.
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Post by Von K on Oct 1, 2023 16:12:11 GMT -5
There is a considerable amount of cross cutting in Polish sabre fencing, nothing is static, add speed to the equation and you can imagine the difficulty is shooting some of the above movie scenes and still keeping the actors safe, even with steel blunts. I have no real idea about the similarities and connections between the Hungarian, Russian and Polish schools of sabre fencing, but the Cossacks have taken sabre cross cutting techniques to an insane level of skill. I think this video was posted on this thread some pages back, but here it is again. Damned impressive sword swinging there kemp, thanks for the re-post. And they used to think swinging nunchucks was dangerous!
Here's one Hun posted in the Red Sonja movie thread a few years back which you might remember:
Kazachka ¦ Russian beauty performed dance of sabers
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Post by kemp on Oct 1, 2023 19:16:25 GMT -5
Damned impressive sword swinging there kemp, thanks for the re-post. And they used to think swinging nunchucks was dangerous!
Here's one Hun posted in the Red Sonja movie thread a few years back which you might remember:
Kazachka ¦ Russian beauty performed dance of sabers
Notice the second sword dancer, the red head, there you go, Red Sonja. Apparently, variations of the sword dance appear in various parts of Europe, Africa and Asia. Sword Dance by Paul Joanovitch depicting Albanian and Montenegrin sword dances.
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