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Post by deuce on Sept 14, 2016 23:47:17 GMT -5
Definitely seemed an appropriate time for this thread. While I'll be posting all other pertinent quotes (and talking about the placement of the Zaporoska and Ilbars rivers) there are a few passages from REH that really give us the main facts about the kozaki. From Iron Shadows in the Moon: “Kozak!” ejaculated Shah Amurath, recoiling. “I did not know a dog of you escaped! I thought you all lay stiff on the steppe, by Ilbars River.” “All but me, damn you!” cried [Conan]. (...)
“I was one of those dissolute rogues, the Free Companions, who burned and looted along the borders. There were five thousand of us, from a score of races and tribes. We had been serving as mercenaries for a rebel prince in eastern Koth, most of us, and when he made peace with his cursed sovereign, we were out of employment; so we took to plundering the outlying dominions of Koth, Zamora and Turan impartially. A week ago Shah Amurath trapped us near the banks of Ilbars with fifteen thousand men."From The Devil in Iron (which takes place several years after ISitM): On the broad steppes between the Sea of Vilayet and the borders of the easternmost Hyborian kingdoms, a new race had sprung up in the past half-century, formed originally of fleeing criminals, broken men, escaped slaves, and deserting soldiers. They were men of many crimes and countries, some born on the steppes, some fleeing from the kingdoms in the west. They were called kozak, which means wastrel.
Then [Conan] laughed down into the clear eyes, and said: “Why should not a chief of the Free People be preferable to a city-bred dog of Turan?”Robert E. Howard shows quite plainly that the kozaki are a very new phenomenon on the steppes in Conan's time. Conan is obviously in on it as the kozaki are beginning to gel into a distinct society/culture. The "Free Companions" he rode with in ISitM weren't "kozaki" at all until they surged out upon the trackless steppes. The kozaki didn't even name themselves. That came from the Turanians who were their primary targets. They couldn't have developed their own language, either. Dialects, let alone languages, take longer than 50yrs/a "half-century" to develop. REH never capitalized "kozak". It no more needed capitalizing than "biker" or "bandit" would now. The kozaki had yet to truly coalesce, though they were well on their way. Howard's model, of course, would be the Cossacks who ranged the steppes south of Russia and north of the Ottomans. There are varying histories given as to the origins of the Cossacks: russiapedia.rt.com/of-russian-origin/cossacks/www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?linkpath=pages%5CC%5CO%5CCossacks.htmMost generally agree that the Cossacks started out comprised of various nationalities, many being outlaws or escaped serfs. They began coalescing into "sietches" or "siches" in the 1400s. The first formal Cossack state was declared in 1649. Despite the diverse original make-up of the original Cossacks, by the 1600s the Don and Dnieper Cossacks generally all spoke Russian or the closely-related Ukrainian language (think English and Scots). Whatever their history, it appears that Robert E. Howard got most of his info on Cossacks from the Cossack tales of Harold Lamb which appeared in Adventure magazine during the 1920s. Howard often called Lamb one of his favorite authors. I personally recommend Riders of the Steppes. It's full of great stories. Especially good is The White Falcon. Based on an actual event, it depicts the relationship between the free Cossacks and the tyrannical Russian state at the time. Plus, it's a truly great adventure story. REH almost certainly read it. www.amazon.com/Riders-Steppes-Complete-Cossack-Adventures/dp/0803280505
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2016 13:29:45 GMT -5
Definitely seemed an appropriate time for this thread. While I'll be posting all other pertinent quotes (and talking about the placement of the Zaporoska and Ilbars rivers) there are a few passages from REH that really give us the main facts about the kozaki. From Iron Shadows in the Moon: “Kozak!” ejaculated Shah Amurath, recoiling. “I did not know a dog of you escaped! I thought you all lay stiff on the steppe, by Ilbars River.” “All but me, damn you!” cried [Conan]. (...)
“I was one of those dissolute rogues, the Free Companions, who burned and looted along the borders. There were five thousand of us, from a score of races and tribes. We had been serving as mercenaries for a rebel prince in eastern Koth, most of us, and when he made peace with his cursed sovereign, we were out of employment; so we took to plundering the outlying dominions of Koth, Zamora and Turan impartially. A week ago Shah Amurath trapped us near the banks of Ilbars with fifteen thousand men."From The Devil in Iron (which takes place several years after ISitM): On the broad steppes between the Sea of Vilayet and the borders of the easternmost Hyborian kingdoms, a new race had sprung up in the past half-century, formed originally of fleeing criminals, broken men, escaped slaves, and deserting soldiers. They were men of many crimes and countries, some born on the steppes, some fleeing from the kingdoms in the west. They were called kozak, which means wastrel.
Then [Conan] laughed down into the clear eyes, and said: “Why should not a chief of the Free People be preferable to a city-bred dog of Turan?”Robert E. Howard shows quite plainly that the kozaki are a very new phenomenon on the steppes in Conan's time. Conan is obviously in on it as the kozaki are beginning to gel into a distinct society/culture. The "Free Companions" he rode with in ISitM weren't "kozaki" at all until they surged out upon the trackless steppes. The kozaki didn't even name themselves. That came from the Turanians who were their primary targets. They couldn't have developed their own language, either. Dialects, let alone languages, take longer than 50yrs/a "half-century" to develop. REH never capitalized "kozak". It no more needed capitalizing than "biker" or "bandit" would now. The kozaki had yet to truly coalesce, though they were well on their way. Howard's model, of course, would be the Cossacks who ranged the steppes south of Russia and north of the Ottomans. There are varying histories given as to the origins of the Cossacks: russiapedia.rt.com/of-russian-origin/cossacks/www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?linkpath=pages%5CC%5CO%5CCossacks.htmMost generally agree that the Cossacks started out comprised of various nationalities, many being outlaws or escaped serfs. They began coalescing into "sietches" or "siches" in the 1400s. The first formal Cossack state was declared in 1649. Despite the diverse original make-up of the original Cossacks, by the 1600s the Don and Dnieper Cossacks generally all spoke Russian or the closely-related Ukrainian language (think English and Scots). Whatever their history, it appears that Robert E. Howard got most of his info on Cossacks from the Cossack tales of Harold Lamb which appeared in Adventure magazine during the 1920s. Howard often called Lamb one of his favorite authors. I personally recommend Riders of the Steppes. It's full of great stories. Especially good is The White Falcon. Based on an actual event, it depicts the relationship between the free Cossacks and the tyrannical Russian state at the time. Plus, it's a truly great adventure story. REH almost certainly read it. www.amazon.com/Riders-Steppes-Complete-Cossack-Adventures/dp/0803280505I've not read Lamb's cossack tales. I will do one day. The Zaporaskan and Ilbars rivers have a Slavic and Turkic etymology. The Zaporoska is clearly inspired from the Zaporozhian Cossacks. I know it is not the most reliable of sources (wikipedia), but, my knowledge of the Slavic languages is very poor, to say the least. According to wikipedia 'The name Zaporozhtsi comes from the location of their fortress, the Sich, in Zaporozhia, the ‘land beyond the rapids’ (from Ukrainian za ‘beyond’ and poróhy ‘river rapids’).' The 'Ilbars' in Turkic translates as Nation of the Panther/Leopard (Il nation/people/land) and Pars (panther/leopard). Here's the Zaparoski led by good old Yul Brynner (Taras Bulba)
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Post by deuce on Sept 18, 2016 13:10:07 GMT -5
Definitely seemed an appropriate time for this thread. While I'll be posting all other pertinent quotes (and talking about the placement of the Zaporoska and Ilbars rivers) there are a few passages from REH that really give us the main facts about the kozaki. From Iron Shadows in the Moon: “Kozak!” ejaculated Shah Amurath, recoiling. “I did not know a dog of you escaped! I thought you all lay stiff on the steppe, by Ilbars River.” “All but me, damn you!” cried [Conan]. (...)
“I was one of those dissolute rogues, the Free Companions, who burned and looted along the borders. There were five thousand of us, from a score of races and tribes. We had been serving as mercenaries for a rebel prince in eastern Koth, most of us, and when he made peace with his cursed sovereign, we were out of employment; so we took to plundering the outlying dominions of Koth, Zamora and Turan impartially. A week ago Shah Amurath trapped us near the banks of Ilbars with fifteen thousand men."From The Devil in Iron (which takes place several years after ISitM): On the broad steppes between the Sea of Vilayet and the borders of the easternmost Hyborian kingdoms, a new race had sprung up in the past half-century, formed originally of fleeing criminals, broken men, escaped slaves, and deserting soldiers. They were men of many crimes and countries, some born on the steppes, some fleeing from the kingdoms in the west. They were called kozak, which means wastrel.
Then [Conan] laughed down into the clear eyes, and said: “Why should not a chief of the Free People be preferable to a city-bred dog of Turan?”Robert E. Howard shows quite plainly that the kozaki are a very new phenomenon on the steppes in Conan's time. Conan is obviously in on it as the kozaki are beginning to gel into a distinct society/culture. The "Free Companions" he rode with in ISitM weren't "kozaki" at all until they surged out upon the trackless steppes. The kozaki didn't even name themselves. That came from the Turanians who were their primary targets. They couldn't have developed their own language, either. Dialects, let alone languages, take longer than 50yrs/a "half-century" to develop. REH never capitalized "kozak". It no more needed capitalizing than "biker" or "bandit" would now. The kozaki had yet to truly coalesce, though they were well on their way. The Zaporaskan and Ilbars rivers have a Slavic and Turkic etymology. The Zaporoska is clearly inspired from the Zaporozhian Cossacks. I know it is not the most reliable of sources (wikipedia), but, my knowledge of the Slavic languages is very poor, to say the least. According to wikipedia 'The name Zaporozhtsi comes from the location of their fortress, the Sich, in Zaporozhia, the ‘land beyond the rapids’ (from Ukrainian za ‘beyond’ and poróhy ‘river rapids’).' The 'Ilbars' in Turkic translates as Nation of the Panther/Leopard (Il nation/people/land) and Pars (panther/leopard). Yeah, REH knew about "Zaporozhian". He used the term in Three Bladed Doom. As for "Ilbars", I always assumed REH got it from the Persian "Elborz", which has a long lineage: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alborzen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_ElbrusHowever, they all refer to mountains, so something can be said for "Ilbars". OTOH, Howard knew very, very little Turkish. Witness his use of "Vilayet" (Turkish for "province") for a huge inland sea. Some version of "Mazandaran" would've been much more euphonious than "Vilayet", IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2016 5:00:17 GMT -5
The Zaporaskan and Ilbars rivers have a Slavic and Turkic etymology. The Zaporoska is clearly inspired from the Zaporozhian Cossacks. I know it is not the most reliable of sources (wikipedia), but, my knowledge of the Slavic languages is very poor, to say the least. According to wikipedia 'The name Zaporozhtsi comes from the location of their fortress, the Sich, in Zaporozhia, the ‘land beyond the rapids’ (from Ukrainian za ‘beyond’ and poróhy ‘river rapids’).' The 'Ilbars' in Turkic translates as Nation of the Panther/Leopard (Il nation/people/land) and Pars (panther/leopard). Yeah, REH knew about "Zaporozhian". He used the term in Three Bladed Doom. As for "Ilbars", I always assumed REH got it from the Persian "Elborz", which has a long lineage: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alborzen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_ElbrusHowever, they all refer to mountains, so something can be said for "Ilbars". OTOH, Howard knew very, very little Turkish. Witness his use of "Vilayet" (Turkish for "province") for a huge inland sea. Some version of "Mazandaran" would've been much more euphonious than "Vilayet", IMO. "Elborz" sounds very interesting, I don't know how I missed that one. Ilbars I (1511–1518) was an early Uzbek leader and the founder of the Khanate of Khiva (1511 to 1920). The last Khan of Khiva, died in Moscow in 1920. HH Howarth's epic 'HISTORY of the MONGOLS FROM THE 9th TO THE 19th CENTURY' was published between 1876-1888, at the time it was the most comprehensive history of the Mongols in the English language. I have no idea if REH was aware of Ilbars Khan. But, if REH did transform 'Elbrus/Alborz' into 'Ilbars', with the exact the same spelling found in the books of the time, now that would be quite a a coincidence. Here's an excerpt from Howarth's book, concerning a later Ilbars Khan. books.google.co.uk/books?id=x2pKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA912&dq=ilbars+khan&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj-mM-JlZvPAhWpI8AKHetJDzEQ6AEIGzAB#v=onepage&q=ilbars%20khan&f=falseHere's a link with the Uzbek rulers of Khiva. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khanate_of_Khiva
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Post by deuce on Sept 20, 2016 16:00:58 GMT -5
Funny you should mention the Khanate of Khiva. The story, The White Falcon, that I spoke of earlier? It's centered upon the Cossack raid on Urgench during the reign of Godunov. You can read a lot of it here: books.google.com/books?id=Mbyhn8eyOqAC&pg=PA316&lpg=PA316&dq=%22the+sentry+at+the+gora+gate%22&source=bl&ots=sT96E2uHaQ&sig=b6iGhD5eTUI7BqqbicSPC_4HHco&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjOmpWU5J7PAhUDND4KHYtSBXkQ6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=%22the%20sentry%20at%20the%20gora%20gate%22&f=falseHere's the first little bit, as the Cossacks enter Moscow... White Falcon
About the White City are three walls.
Within the earth wall dwell the slaves—within the red wall the men-at-arms guard the palaces of the peers.
In the heart of the city within the white wall sleeps one who is master of all.
Yet his sleep is broken and he himself is no more than a slave to Fear.
Chapter 1 Three Travelers Enter the Gate
The sentry at the Gora gate of the city of Moscow was a good soldier. He knew the four duties of the guard, because his sergeant had instructed him carefully and he had repeated them until he remembered them—
To bow the head before rank, to drive away vagabonds, to hand over any coin given him to his sergeant, and—unless some extraordinary event befell—on no account to call the captain of the guard who, at this hour of a cloudless Midsummer day, was asleep in the cool anteroom of the gate tower. The sergeant was not in evidence because he was making his rounds which led him, to the best of the sentry's belief, through several nearby taverns and took up a great deal of time...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2016 16:15:34 GMT -5
Funny you should mention the Khanate of Khiva. The story, The White Falcon, that I spoke of earlier? It's centered upon the Cossack raid on Urgench during the reign of Godunov. You can read a lot of it here: books.google.com/books?id=Mbyhn8eyOqAC&pg=PA316&lpg=PA316&dq=%22the+sentry+at+the+gora+gate%22&source=bl&ots=sT96E2uHaQ&sig=b6iGhD5eTUI7BqqbicSPC_4HHco&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjOmpWU5J7PAhUDND4KHYtSBXkQ6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=%22the%20sentry%20at%20the%20gora%20gate%22&f=falseHere's the first little bit, as the Cossacks enter Moscow... White Falcon
About the White City are three walls.
Within the earth wall dwell the slaves—within the red wall the men-at-arms guard the palaces of the peers.
In the heart of the city within the white wall sleeps one who is master of all.
Yet his sleep is broken and he himself is no more than a slave to Fear.
Chapter 1 Three Travelers Enter the Gate
The sentry at the Gora gate of the city of Moscow was a good soldier. He knew the four duties of the guard, because his sergeant had instructed him carefully and he had repeated them until he remembered them—
To bow the head before rank, to drive away vagabonds, to hand over any coin given him to his sergeant, and—unless some extraordinary event befell—on no account to call the captain of the guard who, at this hour of a cloudless Midsummer day, was asleep in the cool anteroom of the gate tower. The sergeant was not in evidence because he was making his rounds which led him, to the best of the sentry's belief, through several nearby taverns and took up a great deal of time...Thanks Deuce. Seems very interesting.
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Post by deuce on Sept 23, 2016 11:37:12 GMT -5
Two quotes from Robert E. Howard regarding the steppes west of the Vilayet, where the kozaki began to coalesce (approximately during the lifetime of Conan). From "The Hyborian Age" guideline: Through the centuries they [Hyrkanians] have pushed steadily westward, and now a tribe skirts the southern end of the great inland sea – Vilayet – and establishes the kingdom of Turan on the southwestern shore. Between the inland sea and the eastern borders of the native kingdoms [ie, Zamora, Brythunia, Hyperborea] lie vast expanses of steppes and in the extreme north and extreme south, deserts. The non-Hyrkanian dwellers of these territories are scattered and pastoral, unclassified in the north, Shemitish in the south, aboriginal, with a thin strain of Hyborian blood from wandering conquerors. That final sentence could be parsed more than one way. To me, the most logical/natural way to interpret it (using hints/facts from REH elsewhere) is that the racial make-up on the steppes before the advent of the kozaki (ie, a couple of decades, at most, before the birth of Conan) was something like this: 1. The "dwellers" in both the north and south are "aboriginal", meaning they've been there a very long time. Both groups are "scattered and pastoral", meaning they live off herding livestock and they are not clustered into towns. Some may possibly be full-blown nomadic or be semi-nomadic/transhumant. There seems to be little cultural, let alone political, cohesion in either group. Both groups of "dwellers" possess "a thin strain of Hyborian blood from wandering conquerors". By REH's well-attested Hyborian Age racial guidelines, only a "thin strain" means that neither group could claim to be ethnically Hyborian. Nor is it likely at all that the "wandering conquerors" imposed much in the way of Hyborian culture or language. Either group being Mitraist seems very remote. 2.The northern "dwellers" are "aboriginal", "scattered and pastoral" and of "unclassified" racial stock. Since "Hyborians" are mentioned as passing through in the very same sentence, "classifying" these scattered indigenes as "Hyborian" seems out of the question. My guess is that they're made up of post-Cataclysmic scraps of the Thurian Age Zarfhaanans, Grondarians and Zhemri. The steppes occupy the same general area as Grondar did. Some of their ancestors may have been the "small unclassified clans" encountered by the primal Hyborians during their initial move south, as mentioned in THA. Or maybe not. 3. The southern "dwellers" are "aboriginal", "scattered and pastoral" and of Shemitish stock. They would count as the most northerly Shemites (during Conan's era) that REH ever mentioned. They also possess "a thin strain of Hyborian blood". The Zaporoska River would pass through their territory. 4. Since REH felt compelled to point out that these "aboriginal dwellers" on the steppes were " non-Hyrkanian", I think it's possible that there are some Hyrkanians that also claim those same steppes as their home. However, REH may simply have been pointing out and making sure that the reader understood that the "dwellers" were not Hyrkanian, since he was speaking of the Hyrkanians just before. Either way, Hyrkanians don't seem to have been a strong presence on those steppes in Conan's time. From Iron Shadows in the Moon: “The southwestern shore [of the Vilayet] is held by the Hyrkanians for hundreds of miles [said Conan]. We still have a long way to go before we pass beyond their northern boundaries. I intend to go northward, until I think we have passed them. Then we’ll turn westward, and try to land on the shore bordered by the uninhabited steppes.”This remark from Conan is a little problematic, on the face of it. He's talking about the steppes north of Turan. Howard said in the HA that there were "dwellers" of "unclassified" stock living in that general region. It's possible that specific area was a kind of no-man's land, being on Turan's northern border. It's also possible that particular region was barren enough that it was only used for grazing part of the year by transhumant "dwellers" whose home pastures were farther north or west.
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Post by deuce on Oct 16, 2016 20:43:29 GMT -5
Here's the Zaparoski led by good old Yul Brynner (Taras Bulba) That was probably the best English-language Cossack movie ever made. Yul was part Tatar.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2016 14:46:30 GMT -5
Here's the Zaparoski led by good old Yul Brynner (Taras Bulba) That was probably the best English-language Cossack movie ever made. Yul was part Tatar. It was a great movie. I think Yul Brynner claimed to be of Russian-Mongolian descent, he may have been of Siberian descent, like Buryat, Yakut or Tungusic, maybe? I know he was born in Vladivostok.
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Post by deuce on Oct 26, 2016 19:53:04 GMT -5
Two quotes from Robert E. Howard regarding the steppes west of the Vilayet, where the kozaki began to coalesce (approximately during the lifetime of Conan). From "The Hyborian Age" guideline: Through the centuries they [Hyrkanians] have pushed steadily westward, and now a tribe skirts the southern end of the great inland sea – Vilayet – and establishes the kingdom of Turan on the southwestern shore. Between the inland sea and the eastern borders of the native kingdoms [ie, Zamora, Brythunia, Hyperborea] lie vast expanses of steppes and in the extreme north and extreme south, deserts. The non-Hyrkanian dwellers of these territories are scattered and pastoral, unclassified in the north, Shemitish in the south, aboriginal, with a thin strain of Hyborian blood from wandering conquerors. That final sentence could be parsed more than one way. To me, the most logical/natural way to interpret it (using hints/facts from REH elsewhere) is that the racial make-up on the steppes before the advent of the kozaki (ie, a couple of decades, at most, before the birth of Conan) was something like this: 1. The "dwellers" in both the north and south are "aboriginal", meaning they've been there a very long time. Both groups are "scattered and pastoral", meaning they live off herding livestock and they are not clustered into towns. Some may possibly be full-blown nomadic or be semi-nomadic/transhumant. There seems to be little cultural, let alone political, cohesion in either group. Both groups of "dwellers" possess "a thin strain of Hyborian blood from wandering conquerors". By REH's well-attested Hyborian Age racial guidelines, only a "thin strain" means that neither group could claim to be ethnically Hyborian. Nor is it likely at all that the "wandering conquerors" imposed much in the way of Hyborian culture or language. Either group being Mitraist seems very remote. 2.The northern "dwellers" are "aboriginal", "scattered and pastoral" and of "unclassified" racial stock. Since "Hyborians" are mentioned as passing through in the very same sentence, "classifying" these scattered indigenes as "Hyborian" seems out of the question. My guess is that they're made up of post-Cataclysmic scraps of the Thurian Age Zarfhaanans, Grondarians and Zhemri. The steppes occupy the same general area as Grondar did. Some of their ancestors may have been the "small unclassified clans" encountered by the primal Hyborians during their initial move south, as mentioned in THA. Or maybe not. 3. The southern "dwellers" are "aboriginal", "scattered and pastoral" and of Shemitish stock. They would count as the most northerly Shemites (during Conan's era) that REH ever mentioned. They also possess "a thin strain of Hyborian blood". The Zaporoska River would pass through their territory. This, from Black Colossus: “And you, my Agha?” She turned to Shupras. He shrugged his shoulders resignedly. He was typical of the race evolved along Koth’s southern borders – tall and gaunt, with features leaner and more hawk-like than his purer-blooded desert kin.In Agha Shupras, we see a westerly cousin to the aboriginal southern "dwellers" on the steppes. Like them, his background is mostly Shemite, but a strain of Hyborian blood sets him and his tribesmen slightly apart from their pure-blooded Zuagir kin in Shem proper.
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Post by deuce on Oct 27, 2016 9:24:48 GMT -5
From The Devil in Iron: On the broad steppes between the Sea of Vilayet and the borders of the easternmost Hyborian kingdoms, a new race had sprung up in the past half-century, formed originally of fleeing criminals, broken men, escaped slaves, and deserting soldiers. They were men of many crimes and countries, some born on the steppes, some fleeing from the kingdoms in the west. They were called kozak, which means wastrel.
Dwelling on the wild, open steppes, owning no law but their own peculiar code, they had become a people capable even of defying the Grand Monarch. Ceaselessly they raided the Turanian frontier, retiring in the steppes when defeated; with the pirates of Vilayet, men of much the same breed, they harried the coast, preying off the merchant ships which plied between the Hyrkanian ports.According to most Conan chronologies, the Cimmerian was about thirty in TDiI. Thus, the kozak phenomenon was only 20yrs old when Conan was born.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2016 12:36:55 GMT -5
The Zaporaskan and Ilbars rivers have a Slavic and Turkic etymology. The Zaporoska is clearly inspired from the Zaporozhian Cossacks. I know it is not the most reliable of sources (wikipedia), but, my knowledge of the Slavic languages is very poor, to say the least. According to wikipedia 'The name Zaporozhtsi comes from the location of their fortress, the Sich, in Zaporozhia, the ‘land beyond the rapids’ (from Ukrainian za ‘beyond’ and poróhy ‘river rapids’).' The 'Ilbars' in Turkic translates as Nation of the Panther/Leopard (Il nation/people/land) and Pars (panther/leopard). Yeah, REH knew about "Zaporozhian". He used the term in Three Bladed Doom. As for "Ilbars", I always assumed REH got it from the Persian "Elborz", which has a long lineage: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alborzen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_ElbrusHowever, they all refer to mountains, so something can be said for "Ilbars". OTOH, Howard knew very, very little Turkish. Witness his use of "Vilayet" (Turkish for "province") for a huge inland sea. Some version of "Mazandaran" would've been much more euphonious than "Vilayet", IMO. It looks like the 'Ilbars' influence is more likely from the rulers of Central Asia and more specifically from Harold Lamb's Cossack yarns in the 'Adventure Magazine'. Ilbars Sultan appears in both the 'White Falcon' November 30, 1925 and 'The Wolf Master' December 8, 1926.
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Post by deuce on Dec 15, 2016 10:32:46 GMT -5
Yeah, REH knew about "Zaporozhian". He used the term in Three Bladed Doom. As for "Ilbars", I always assumed REH got it from the Persian "Elborz", which has a long lineage: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alborzen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_ElbrusHowever, they all refer to mountains, so something can be said for "Ilbars". OTOH, Howard knew very, very little Turkish. Witness his use of "Vilayet" (Turkish for "province") for a huge inland sea. Some version of "Mazandaran" would've been much more euphonious than "Vilayet", IMO. It looks like the 'Ilbars' influence is more likely from the rulers of Central Asia and more specifically from Harold Lamb's Cossack yarns in the 'Adventure Magazine'. Ilbars Sultan appears in both the 'White Falcon' November 30, 1925 and 'The Wolf Master' December 8, 1926. I would say that's it. Something I should've spotted myself. Tarim knows, I've read those tales more times than you, most likely.
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Post by deuce on Dec 17, 2016 13:28:59 GMT -5
It looks like the 'Ilbars' influence is more likely from the rulers of Central Asia and more specifically from Harold Lamb's Cossack yarns in the 'Adventure Magazine'. Ilbars Sultan appears in both the 'White Falcon' November 30, 1925 and 'The Wolf Master' December 8, 1926. I would say that's it. Something I should've spotted myself. Tarim knows, I've read those tales more times than you, most likely. I should add that there is an "Ilbars Khan", a Turkoman, in The Way of Swords/ Road of Eagles by REH.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2016 12:33:42 GMT -5
I would say that's it. Something I should've spotted myself. Tarim knows, I've read those tales more times than you, most likely. I should add that there is an "Ilbars Khan", a Turkoman, in The Way of Swords/ Road of Eagles by REH. The last time I read The Way of Swords/Road of Eagles was the Conanized SSOC adaptation. Oh dear, another one to add to my reading list.
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