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Post by Von K on Sept 21, 2016 20:17:48 GMT -5
I don't remember reading anything by REH that said that Olgerd was a 'Hyperborean adventurer'. Seems Zaporoska just aint good enough for some folks out there, oh well. Whilst REH makes no direct mention of him being a Hyperborean, maybe he just didn't mention his full history in aWSBB for reasons of narrative economy. Sometimes a writer will hold back certain worldbuilding details if they would disrupt the narrative flow for his general audience. He established enough background to solidly seat Olgerd in the tale, but I don’t think most of his readers would necessarily have appreciated too much back history on the character inserted into an action narrative, even though REH may have know those details as he wrote.
He once said to Novalyne: “Give readers a lot of action and explain only as much as you absolutely have to.” And: “the best backgound is just there.”That's just my speculation Bront. But an informed speculation, I hope. It's true REH didn't mention anything directly about Olgerd being a Hyperborean adventurer in that yarn. Yet I've written enough tales myself to know that the narrative economy issue can lead to certain backgound details being left out if they have no direct bearing on a story. Tolkien rarely skipped background like that, but as you know REH often seemed to trim things down to a lean mean fighting/writing machine. I don't hold either you, or anyone else, obliged to accept my speculation if either you, or they, dont want to.
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Post by bront on Sept 22, 2016 17:29:37 GMT -5
Nothing wrong with speculation, but in the end it is just that, speculation devoid of facts. One can imagine Olgerd 'really hailing from Hyperborea, Brythunia or Gunderland or anywhere else for that matter if Zaporoska does not sit well with them.
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Post by bront on Sept 23, 2016 5:37:57 GMT -5
REH was inspired by Russians in connection to the Kozaki, creating a character like Olgerd, doesn't mean you start applying Russia to everything. I mean really, REH was inspired by the Turks, think Hyrkania, but if someone tried to link that to Hyperborea the result would have been the same as far as you are concerned.
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Post by deuce on Sept 23, 2016 8:19:04 GMT -5
REH was inspired by Russians in connection to the Kozaki, creating a character like Olgerd, doesn't mean you start applying Russia to everything. Who, exactly, is "applying Russia to everything"? Ah, I think I see another straw man argument coming this way. yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman
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Post by Von K on Sept 23, 2016 13:40:19 GMT -5
Nothing wrong with speculation, but in the end it is just that, speculation devoid of facts. One can imagine Olgerd 'really hailing from Hyperborea, Brythunia or Gunderland or anywhere else for that matter if Zaporoska does not sit well with them. Hi Bront, I ought to have clarified in my original post that my speculation is not the one about Olgerd potentially being Hyperborean. Others far more well read in REH have mentioned long before me about a potential Olgerd/Hyperborean connection. My speculation is the reason why I think REH might possibly have not gone into full detail on Olgerd's background in aWSBB. Narrative economy. Energy of motion vs the stasis of too much detail. REH's writing style is like Conan himself, always in motion. Even his descriptions are active and full of energy. To paraphrase some of his comments to Novalyne for writing this kind of yarn: 'my readers want action - don't think, don't philosophise - act, feel, act.' Hope that I rationalised that well enough for my 'narrative economy' angle to be at least an informed speculation, drawing on the larger context of what we know about REH and his writing mindset, beyond just the Conan tales, and not just a wild whimsical fancy, as you seem to be suggesting. I'd still be interested to know if the earlier drafts of aWSBB can shed any light? All best Von K
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Post by bront on Sept 23, 2016 16:59:31 GMT -5
I think the detail that REH went into was enough for the story at hand, the cursory description fits the narrative flow, also remember that Olgerd is in his element, as a Russian type 'proto Slav' set amongst the steppe Kozaki, Shemitic Zuagirs, Hyrkanians and Turanians.
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Post by bront on Sept 23, 2016 17:00:10 GMT -5
Thanks for the input Von K
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Post by deuce on Sept 24, 2016 0:01:38 GMT -5
Nothing wrong with speculation, but in the end it is just that, speculation devoid of facts. One can imagine Olgerd 'really hailing from Hyperborea, Brythunia or Gunderland or anywhere else for that matter if Zaporoska does not sit well with them. Hope that I rationalised that well enough for my 'narrative economy' angle to be at least an informed speculation, drawing on the larger context of what we know about REH and his writing mindset, beyond just the Conan tales, and not just a wild whimsical fancy, as you seem to be suggesting. I'd still be interested to know if the earlier drafts of aWSBB can shed any light? All best Von K The very first draft of AWSbB is in the hands of a collector. It has never been transcribed, to my knowledge.
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Post by Von K on Sept 25, 2016 18:04:08 GMT -5
The very first draft of AWSbB is in the hands of a collector. It has never been transcribed, to my knowledge. Thanks Deuce. I remember that auction being posted on the old forum, now that you mention it. I saved the few sample page scans that were provided (a Brek tale was on the back of one).
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Post by Von K on Sept 25, 2016 18:15:03 GMT -5
Thanks for the input Von K You're welcome Bront. In retrospect, I'm seriously over-simplifying REH's writing comments.
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Post by deuce on Sept 26, 2016 2:13:20 GMT -5
The very first draft of AWSbB is in the hands of a collector. It has never been transcribed, to my knowledge. Thanks Deuce. I remember that auction being posted on the old forum, now that you mention it. I saved the few sample page scans that were provided (a Brek tale was on the back of one). I meant to post a link. Here ya go: www.rehtwogunraconteur.com/a-witch-shall-be-bought/
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Post by deuce on Sept 29, 2016 7:49:27 GMT -5
Hello to you too Deuce, yeah, been a while, world is a big place online and offline, but I like some of the threads here, probably wouldn't have posted for some time, but this thread prompted me to add a few words. As for your
'So, Olgerd Vladislav is from/born and raised on the Zaporoska River, which is north of Vendhya, right?'
You gotta be kidding me. What are you questioning? Either Olgerd was referred to as a Hyperborean or not, and REH never wrote that he was. I've let you dig your own grave for long enough, Bront. First off (and right there in my first post), Olgerd was not "from" or "born and raised" on the Zaporoska River. As noted in AWSbB: "Olgerd Vladislav, the kozak adventurer who wandered down from the northern steppes". The Zaporoska is not situated on the "northern steppes" it absolutely can't be, otherwise it would cross through the Ilbars River, which we know is a few hundred miles from Turan's northern border. REH stated that the Zaporoska flows into a very southerly point of the Vilayet. The Zaporoska is on the western side of Vilayet, not east of the Vilayet and "north of Vendhya" as you said. How you came to that cartographical conclusion, I'll never understand. Finally, the native population of the southern steppes where the Zaporoska is located, are Shemitish and REH said so. Olgerd (if he was actually "from" the Zaporoska river) should have a Shemitish name and look, which he does not. You can find the REH quotes in this post: swordsofreh.proboards.com/post/5478You're just flat-out wrong on several counts. REH is good enough for me. I'll give you some time to ponder and regroup.
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Post by bront on Sept 29, 2016 17:54:14 GMT -5
Where did it say Hyperborean in relation to Olgerd.
Let me see....maybe nowhere.
Maybe we should make Olgerd an 'honorary Hyperborean' to make you feel better.
Granted. You can chill now Deuce.
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Post by deuce on Sept 29, 2016 18:18:29 GMT -5
Where did it say Hyperborean in relation to Olgerd. Let me see....maybe nowhere. You hate question marks, don't you Bront? Anyway, so where did REH say that Olgerd was born and raised on the Zaporoska? Oh yeah, he didn't. In fact, he pointed to Olgerd's homeland being far to the north of the Zaporoska. If Olgerd isn't a Hyperborean (I think the evidence points to him being one), then he grew up just east of Hyperborea. By all means, just blow off the fact that everything you stated that Olgerd actually was (other than being a hetman of the Zaporoskan kozaki for a time) is contradicted by Howard. That's not even counting your unbelievably bassackwards conception of the Zaporoska's placement and the ethnic makeup of the southern steppes west of the Vilayet.
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Post by deuce on Sept 30, 2016 10:13:05 GMT -5
Olgered associated with the Zaporoska makes perfect sense. It is the only information afforded us. Speculating that 'olgered might have actually been a Hyperborean or Gunderman' or anything else for that matter makes no sense in this context. No. It is not "the only information afforded us." Robert E. Howard gives us information within AWSbB (quoted in the very first post in this thread) that directly contradicts your thesis. Wherever Olgerd was born, it was not on the Zaporoska River.
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