Traditions of Cimmerian tribes

[BlackHeart]

What about the traditions in Cimmeria? Except pastiche writers (which does not count) I do not remember that Bob ever write about it in a story. We know that they were prone to religiosity (good old Crom being what he is)  but certainly they must've had some kind of ritual. What were their customs during childbirth or burial of fallen comrades, whether they had any "baptism of fire" in some part of their youth and boyhood? What do you think about this?

[ironhand]

The only menttion of customs by REH was when Conan said in RitH, after killing Thak, that his women would sing of the fight.

[BlackHeart]

Jan 31, 2016 23:04:30 GMT -5 ironhand said:

The only menttion of customs by REH was when Conan said in RitH, after killing Thak, that his women would sing of the fight.

Yes, that's it. And nothing more. I know that Cimmerians are protoCelts in the way that Howard imagined them, but I do not belive that they customs are similar to the ones of the Celtic tribes. Of course, they are not literally "Celts", but, shall we see:


Religion and deities:

 Celtic religion was a mixture of legend and science, and many of their customs survived when the Celts converted to Christianity. It seems that they have had over 200 different deities, which means gods and goddesses.

 Cimmerians were poorly pious and their gods were not favorable to people. Crom was considered a prayer for the weakness and the in place of help he sent doom to those who invoked him.

Priesthood:

 In the ancient Celtic society druids constitute an intellectual elite. They have great knowledge wich bring them to the position of priest. Their "training" is usually lasted more than 20 years, and consisted of memory literature, poetry and history, familiarity with the Celtic law, and astronomy. Druids are mediate for their people, performed the sacrifice, interpreted sign and presided over religious ceremonies. They believed that the soul does not die with the body, but goes to the other side. They had many duties, but their main duty was to advise kings and queens. They interpreted the dreams of the royal family, and interpret events in different kingdoms. As a result, the power of the Druids was great because they were not only priests in Celtic religion, but they had a great influence on political issues.

 Cimmerians have Crom and his dark race, the pantheon of dark, cruel deities whose attention is better not to recall to yourself. As Howard says they had no hope in this world nor in the afterlife, and after death they wander through the fog in Croms realm until the end of time. Of clergy there is no mention, about druids too.

Society:

 Celtic tribes had three main classes: warriors, druids and farmers and artisans. Since the war was an important part of life, warriors occupied the upper strata of society. The Druids were the priests. It was a society of sages and prophets. They had a public role in the community and for that they were paid in cash or in kind. Craftsmen were highly skilled in metalworking, and in preparation of fine jewelry made of gold, silver, copper and bronze. Farmers vere breeding cattle and cultivated the land with iron tools and maintain a complete economy. Women were represented in each of these categories and they could be warriors, queens, druids, farmers or traders. They have equal rights with men. Differences in rights were based on social class, not gender. Legal and economic rights were ensured for both men and women.
 Extraordinary laws and customs permited to Celtic womens enjoy in all the rights and freedoms in society, as well as men. In the old records Celtic womens are shown as brave, resourceful and cunning heroine. They could be in a position of authority, as well as men. The Roman historian Marcus Borealis wrote: "The women of the Celtic tribes are bigger and stronger than our Roman women. They are very robust and engaged in martial arts. The girls in the north have been trained for war, and our gentle ladies teach their women's duties and thus are less powerful than most young women of Gaul and the surrounding area."
 This differences vere manifested in attitudes of Celtic womens to. They understood Roman women the weaker sex, because they vere in many ways been at the service of men. Pejoratively they called them 'half women'.

 Cimmerians are tough race, brutal and strong. They live in clans and are often fighting among themselves. As Howard never described no other Cimmerian except Conan (nor their people), we can not even know how exactly look their social order. It is known only that it is one gloomy people prone to defiance, feuding, and they are almost invincible in battle. They live by hunting and what they found in their harsh environment.
 But there is no doubt that their wives definitely reminiscent on the Celtic ones. This is corroborated by the fact that Conan himself was born on the battlefield due to the battle, in which (presumably) participated his pregnant mother. This is what I call "a woman with balls", if I may so to speak Respect!!!

Rituals:

 Druids have left no written records and their rituals are shrouded in secrecy. The Celts worshiped many gods and spirits, trees, rocks and mountains. One of the oldest gods was Cernunno, known as the master of the beast. Often depicted with horns or with a horned animals, such as deer. He was considered to represent fertility and abundance. To pagan Celts head was very important, so as the number "3". One of the customs was to cut the head off a dead enemy, hang it on the horse's reins, and then have it publicly exposed. That may have been because the druids believed that the human soul is in his mind and it must be conquered.

 In our knowlage of the Cimmerians we have almost nothing about their rituals. In addition we know that Conan few times mentioned his deeds before he "became a man" (which leads me to wonder if he means on merely growing or is it something you had to make or do that a tribe finaly start consider you for a man), and what as Ironhand mentioned that of Conan's victory over Thak his women will sing one day, there is nothing that could be called a "ritualistic custom".


 I often wonder to what more literary treasure we were left deprived that moment when REH decided to take his own life... I'd like that he wrote more about all of this. But, even this what he has left us is a true, veritable treasure, and it somehow came as a consolation. Of course, there remains much room for our own imagination and our own vision of everything, but one is the original! One is Howard!

[zarono]

Here's an interesting bit of what must be some sort of Cimmerian tradition (take note of the curious heathen gesture) from Beyond the Black River

"I passed the place where Balthus and the dog made their last stand. They were lying amid a heap of dead Picts—I counted seven, brained by his ax, or disemboweled by the dog's fangs, and there were others in the road with arrows sticking in them. Gods, what a fight that must have been!"



"He was a man," said Conan. "I drink to his shade, and to the shade of the dog, who knew no fear." He quaffed part of the wine, then emptied the rest upon the floor, with a curious heathen gesture, and smashed the goblet. "The heads of ten Picts shall pay for his, and seven heads for the dog, who was a better warrior than many a man."

[trescuinge]

There is an instructive quote in 'Queen of the Black Coast'.

"By Crom, though I've spent considerable time among you civilized peoples, your ways are still beyond my comprehension.
"Well, last night in a tavern, a captain in the king's guard offered violence to the sweetheart of a young soldier, who naturally ran him through. But it seems there is some cursed law against killing guardsmen, and the boy and his girl fled away. It was bruited about that I was seen with them, and so today I was haled into court, and a judge asked me where the lad had gone. I replied that since he was a friend of mine, I could not betray him. Then the court waxed wrath, and the judge talked a great deal about my duty to the state, and society, and other things I did not understand, and bade me tell where my friend had flown. By this time I was becoming wrathful myself, for I had explained my position.
"But I choked my ire and held my peace, and the judge squalled that I had shown contempt for the court, and that I should be hurled into a dungeon to rot until I betrayed my friend. So then, seeing they were all mad, I drew my sword and cleft the judge's skull; then I cut my way out of the court, and seeing the high constable's stallion tied near by, I rode for the wharfs, where I thought to find a ship bound for foreign parts."

What does this tell us about the Cimmerian customs?:

There is no concept of civic duty.
Laws and authority mean nothing.
You do not betray friends.
You kill anyone who offends your honor.
You can steal your enemy's stuff with impunity.

The Cimmerian mindset was probably similar to the Corleone family's in the movie 'The Godfather'.
Can't you picture Conan holding up an enemy's severed head and saying, "Today I took care of all the clan's business!"?

[thatericn]

I think the key to what is described by Conan at the start of QOTBC is the initial confrontation. In many decentralized societies, laws were often expected to be self-enforced, and in societies without "civilized" levels stratification the abuse or privileges of power shown in regards to the guardsman would not exist.

I would suggest that instead of a lack of laws, the society Conan grew up in had a different concept of law, who was expected to enforce law, and the requirements and expected outcomes of matters of justice. Conan, I think, was appalled by the legal reaction and could not understand how he was expected to assist in an injustice (the pursuit of the killer, who Conan saw as blameless) and that he was stuck in a "bizarro" mockery of right and wrong, and the natural order.

I would contend too, that Conan's wandering lifestyle makes him an imperfect mirror on Cimmerian society. He probably would not see eye-to-eye with the kin he left behind on many issues, as he left home, family, clan and tribe to roam the world.

[BlackHeart]

 In the word of Bruce Wayne: "Law and justice are two diferent things." And everybody can understand this.

 Barbarians had brutal moments but they had a strong sense of honor and justice. "Civilization is unnatural; it is a whim of cirkumstance. Barbarism must ultimately triumph." REH was right. Of course, we are the children of civilization, one diferent time, but it is undeniable that our time show all clemency and mediocrity of "the modern world." Imagine Conan nowadays. Crom! Blood would flow like a river of ancient Babylon.
 All this tells us little about the mindset of Cimmerians, and it is not difficult to conclude that among them everything was based on much more honorable and more natural system (in lack of a better word) than it was in civilized societies. Of course, this reveals little, but enough to understand their view of the world, of life, honor, justice ... Sometimes I think the world would be better if we didnt moved away from that point. Who knows...? 

[zarono]

Cimmerian generousity:

'I didn't get Tothmekri's jewels,' he rumbled. 'But here are some baubles I found in the chest where I got the clothes I'm wearing.' He spilled a handful of flaming rubies into his palm. 'They're worth a fortune, themselves.' He dumped them back into the bag and handed it to her.



'But I can't take these—' she began.



'Of course you'll take them. I might as well leave you for the Picts to scalp as to take you back to Zingara to starve,' said he. 'I know what it is to be penniless in a Hyborian land. Now in my country sometimes there are famines; but people are hungry only when there's no food in the land at all. But in civilized countries I've seen people sick of gluttony while others were starving. Aye, I've seen men fall and die of hunger against the walls of shops and storehouses crammed with food. 'Sometimes I was hungry, too, but then I took what I wanted at sword's-point. But you can't do that. So you take these rubies. You can sell them and buy a castle, and slaves and fine clothes, and with them it won't be hard to get a husband, because civilized men all desire wives with these possessions.'

"The Black Stranger"

[BlackHeart]

Like I said - civilization is turn from the path of humanity. If I could go back to the past and chose I would rather be a half naked savage then a prince or nobleman - I swear it! 

[trescuinge]

Drawing on very sketchy memories of a business law class, traditional societies regulate the behaviour of their members through custom, while civilized societies use law. My professor always illustrated the principle as the difference between a handshake deal and a written contract.

The choice between custom and law, between doing what is right and doing what is legal is a basic theme in heroic literature. The Icelandic Sagas have several tales of men outlawed for killings that custom obliged them to commit. They were usually hunted down and killed by a posse of their enemies but their actions were generally held to be necessary and noble.

[BlackHeart]

In medieval Serbia, during the reign of Emperor Dusan the Mighty, there was established Great Code and each violation was followed by an appropriate (often brutal) penalty. It happened that on one occasion during the siege of the certain city a mere servant of Duke Sirgijan (who was killed brutally, by fraud) decided to ignore the law and the order to imprison the murderer Byzantine Sfranc Paleolog, and so, determined to lose his head in order to avenge his master, the servant of the Grand Duke killed Sfranc from a crossbow. Servant was naturally brought before the emperor. When he was asked why he disobeyed the order, aware that he will be executed for what he did the servant replied: "I gave my head for my word ... I swore over the body of my dead master that
 I will avenge his death even if it cost me my own head. Here me now ... Before you ... Do what you want with me... "
 Emperor, as he was born warrior and invincible swashbuckler, a knight in his soul, gave a valiant servant life caught by his deed and devotion to a given word. Although it was inconsistent with the actual law, that was justice. The killer was anointed knight and in the eyes of all the folk his deed (killing his commander for gold and new possession) was unworthy of knighthood. Emperor Dusan himself was aware that what the servants has done was justice. 
 
 Sorry for the little lecture on the history, Trescuinge. Im sure you understand the point.

[trescuinge]

Feb 8, 2016 17:30:48 GMT -5 BlackHeart said:

In medieval Serbia, during the reign of Emperor Dusan the Mighty, there was established Great Code and each violation was followed by an appropriate (often brutal) penalty. It happened that on one occasion during the siege of the certain city a mere servant of Duke Sirgijan (who was killed brutally, by fraud) decided to ignore the law and the order to imprison the murderer Byzantine Sfranc Paleolog, and so, determined to lose his head in order to avenge his master, the servant of the Grand Duke killed Sfranc from a crossbow. Servant was naturally brought before the emperor. When he was asked why he disobeyed the order, aware that he will be executed for what he did the servant replied: "I gave my head for my word ... I swore over the body of my dead master that
 I will avenge his death even if it cost me my own head. Here me now ... Before you ... Do what you want with me... "
 Emperor, as he was born warrior and invincible swashbuckler, a knight in his soul, gave a valiant servant life caught by his deed and devotion to a given word. Although it was inconsistent with the actual law, that was justice. The killer was anointed knight and in the eyes of all the folk his deed (killing his commander for gold and new possession) was unworthy of knighthood. Emperor Dusan himself was aware that what the servants has done was justice. 
 
 Sorry for the little lecture on the history, Trescuinge. Im sure you understand the point.

Great story!  It's really a shame we hear so little Serbian history in the States.

I would imagine that Cimmerian custom had a similar attitude toward the justice of avenging your lord.

[deuce]

Feb 7, 2016 17:31:33 GMT -5 zarono said:

Cimmerian generousity:

'I didn't get Tothmekri's jewels,' he rumbled. 'But here are some baubles I found in the chest where I got the clothes I'm wearing.' He spilled a handful of flaming rubies into his palm. 'They're worth a fortune, themselves.' He dumped them back into the bag and handed it to her.



'But I can't take these—' she began.



'Of course you'll take them. I might as well leave you for the Picts to scalp as to take you back to Zingara to starve,' said he. 'I know what it is to be penniless in a Hyborian land. Now in my country sometimes there are famines; but people are hungry only when there's no food in the land at all. But in civilized countries I've seen people sick of gluttony while others were starving. Aye, I've seen men fall and die of hunger against the walls of shops and storehouses crammed with food. 'Sometimes I was hungry, too, but then I took what I wanted at sword's-point. But you can't do that. So you take these rubies. You can sell them and buy a castle, and slaves and fine clothes, and with them it won't be hard to get a husband, because civilized men all desire wives with these possessions.'

"The Black Stranger"

Good one, Z.  I quoted that back on the conan.com forum.

Compare that to PW Joyce from The Story of Ancient Irish Civilization (recommended by Howard to HPL):


Hospitality and generosity were virtues highly

esteemed in ancient Ireland; in the old Irish

Christian writings indeed they are everywhere

praised and inculcated as religious duties ; and in

the secular literature they are equally prominent.

The higher the rank of the person the more

was expected from him, and a king should be

hospitable without limit.

When REH wrote about cattle-baron John Chisum's hospitality, he explicitly compared it to that of a king (and we know REH read that passage from Joyce). In the situation quoted above, Conan was essentially the "king" or "chieftain" of that group of refugees.

Links to ancient Gaelic hospitality:

(Highlander): www.ed.ac.uk/polopoly_fs/1.64000!/fileManager/FriendorFoe.pdf

(Irish): irishamerica.com/2012/07/slainte-land-of-a-thousand-welcomes/

[trescuinge]

The Brehon Law 'Law of Couples' illustrates how complex Cimmerian marriage laws could have been:

www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T102030/index.html


An excerpt from the law governing a marriage of equals:

(1) Union of common contribution: if it is a union with land and stock and household equipment, and if their marital relationship is one of equal status and equal propriety-and such a woman is called a woman of joint dominion-no contract of either is valid without the consent of the other, except for contracts that benefit their establishment. These are: an agreement for common ploughing with proper kinsmen when they do not themselves have a full ploughing team; paying for the leasing of land; getting together food for a coshering;2 getting food for feast-days; paying stud fees; fitting out the household; making an agreement for joint husbandry; the purchase of any essentials that they lack. Every contract shall be without neglect, an advantageous contract, conscientious, in accordance with right and propriety, with acknowledgement on both sides that the ownership of what is acquired belongs to the person whose property was alienated to acquire it.

[deuce]

Feb 8, 2016 21:37:44 GMT -5 trescuinge said:

Feb 8, 2016 17:30:48 GMT -5 BlackHeart said:

Emperor, as he was born warrior and invincible swashbuckler, a knight in his soul, gave a valiant servant life caught by his deed and devotion to a given word. Although it was inconsistent with the actual law, that was justice. The killer was anointed knight and in the eyes of all the folk his deed (killing his commander for gold and new possession) was unworthy of knighthood. Emperor Dusan himself was aware that what the servants has done was justice. 

I would imagine that Cimmerian custom had a similar attitude toward the justice of avenging your lord.

The Gaelic Irish surely did. This is what Fionn mac Cumhal, the legendary Irish champion, told one of his men...

"Do not threaten or speak big words, for it is a shameful thing to speak belligerently unless you can carry it out afterwards.

Do not forsake your lord so long as you live; do not give up any man that puts himself under your protection for all the treasures of the world.

Hold fast to your weapons till the hard fight is well ended."