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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2016 11:46:29 GMT -5
Why not stop digging out mistakes or details you can spun around as some kind of accusation, and put all that energy to something more productive?  Really, this is almost like you are trying to abuse me with your pointing finger. Like I said, I am not going to try to correct any of your claims. And I think and write what I like. If I can I try to inspire others spread some fun and good will, while doing that. How about you try doing the same sometimes. Duuuuude!
Wow. I say the Finns are cool and suggest that you soar off into your own creative world of fiction (we need more fantasy based on Finnish folklore) and I'm "accusing" and "abusing" you? Go ahead and "think and write" what you want. If you're so creative and free, why don't you just write stories in your own world? I'm trying to set you free, but you want to stay in your Hyborian Age straitjacket. I've never, ever criticized your fiction. Sorry, maybe I missed that, amids all the other stuff you criticize. Which is pretty much everything.
I want Hyperborea and I'll have Hyperborea! RAR!
A FINNISH Hyperborea!
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Post by deuce on May 5, 2016 12:44:38 GMT -5
That's the nature of a story, my dear Deuce.  Everyone hear/reads it differently, and to everyone it has different meanings. It is ment to inspire, and be told forward, in the way the next teller wants to tell it. A story is never complete. It changes according to the time, the teller, the motives, the memory... and we must let it happen. Would you please explain what the hell you were replying to right there? I invite anyone to go back and read my post (the only one I'd posted on this thread at that time). I was replying to Trescuinge. It's quite obvious I was doing so, since I quoted his post. I was also addressing what Bux had just pointed out, which was that separate threads for Hyperborea and Gunderland were needed. I then went and started those threads, spending a good deal of time on the research. What a bastard I am. You, my dear Venaala, then replied to my post (which had nothing to do with you). In it, you used an extremely condescending tone, lecturing me (as if to a child) about what the "nature of a story" is. You also informed the world that it " must be allowed to happen" (as if anyone was trying to stop the nebulous process you were talking about). You were in a bossy, lecturing mood, I guess? Not every single post I write is about you, Venaala. Not by a long shot. |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2016 13:01:33 GMT -5
I refer to those posts of yours which I have quoted and commented.
Pardon me, if I seem to lecture you. I have done so In defence of those who you seem to want to lecture and restrict. As seen below.
Did Howard read Sir Charles Oman's 'Art of War in the Middle Ages'? It gives detailed descriptions of the feudal knight, the Swiss pikeman, and the English archer, all good prototypes for the elements of Conan's Aquilonian army. The Gundermen for instance are fierce, steadfast pikemen who are famous as mercenaries. Oman on the Battle of St. Jakob an der Birs sounds alot like Howard: www.kartenplanet.ch/schweiz/basel-land/15048/mathaeus-merian-die-schlacht-bei-st.jakob-an-der-birs"The battle of St. Jacob, mad and unnecessary though it was, might serve as an example to deter the boldest enemy from meddling with men who preferred annihilation to retreat. Possessed by the single idea that their phalanx could bear down any obstacle, the Confederates deliberately crossed the Birs in face of an army of fifteen times their strength. They attacked it, broke its centre, and were then surrounded by its overwhelming numbers. Compelled to 'form the hedgehog' in order to resist the tremendous cavalry charges directed against them, they remained rooted to the spot for the remainder of the day. The Dauphin launched squadron after squadron at them, but each in its turn was hurled back in disorder. In the intervals between these onsets the French light troops poured in their missiles, but though the clump of pikes and halberds grew smaller it still remained impenetrable. Not until the evening was the fighting ended, and then 6000 Armagnacs lay dead around the heap of Swiss corpses in the centre. Louis saw that a few such victories would destroy his whole army, and turned back into Alsace, leaving Switzerland unmolested." The problem with this thread is that it inevitably degenerates into this type of thing. Each new essay from Holmes about a Hyborian Age army then degenerates into talking about the culture that spawned it. Then you have all these posts talking about "Hyperboreans" or "Gundermen". All of that needs threads dedicated to each country. It's been said before (by REH, not least) that a nation's military reflects its culture. Holmes looks at the military culture of each HA kingdom. That can't be done in a vacuum, thread-wise, in a coherent fashion. So we should stop all this? I think not. The point of this forum is after all, that it "degenerates into talking about the culture that spawned it." The thread is called "The Hyborian age - Discuss the world of Conan and the history behind it." So why call it a "problem" when such discussion and speculation happens? [/p] |
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Post by deuce on May 5, 2016 13:34:33 GMT -5
I refer to those posts of yours which I have quoted and commented.
Pardon me, if I seem to lecture you. I have done so In defence of those who you seem to want to lecture and restrict. As seen below.
The problem with this thread is that it inevitably degenerates into this type of thing. Each new essay from Holmes about a Hyborian Age army then degenerates into talking about the culture that spawned it. Then you have all these posts talking about "Hyperboreans" or "Gundermen". All of that needs threads dedicated to each country. It's been said before (by REH, not least) that a nation's military reflects its culture. Holmes looks at the military culture of each HA kingdom. That can't be done in a vacuum, thread-wise, in a coherent fashion. So we should stop all this? I think not. The point of this forum is after all, that it "degenerates into talking about the culture that spawned it." The thread is called "The Hyborian age - Discuss the world of Conan and the history behind it." So why call it a "problem" when such discussion and speculation happens? That's not the the name of this thread at all. The name of this thread is "Armies of the Hyborian Age". Other than Trescuinge, nobody was even talking about those armies. I did not tell anyone to "stop". At all. Show where I did. I went out and solved the problem by creating two more threads. Meanwhile, you lectured me on "the nature of story". Are you angry and defensive all the time, or just occasionally? |
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2016 1:49:27 GMT -5
All the time. And if you carefully read back to your previous posts, you may, eventually, figure out why. I am moving this argument to private messages to save this thread. This thread does, however, come in the thread folder which I named previously "The Hyborian age - Discuss the world of Conan and the history behind it." If you start from the main page you'll see it. Thus, all related speculation should be in order. And while you haven't told anyone to "stop", you have highly criticized and questioned and challenged evvvvrything on here. Give us a break! |
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2016 9:35:42 GMT -5
Finns did have cities, as early as 5000 years ago. Also they practiced slavery. I understand that not many people are aware of it, so I will make a post on my Finland – thread on the matter to share this insight with you.
swordsofreh.proboards.com/post/3092/thread
I am thankful that you bring up more details that I’ve missed about Howard’s writings, deuce.
However, I am still not quite convinced. More silliness coming up…
I must say, that I do not see them posing the charasteristics of old Russia. Russians, and the tribes living in the area of old Russia, are more or less sophisticated and cultured, and much less barbaric and grude than the description of Hyperboreans lets us understand.
Then there is the cavalry, which I admit is a Russian thing and not by any means finnish. I find myself confused.
““The quote from Black Colossus just goes to show that the forces of Hyperborea were not leotard-clad wand-boys (as per Spraguey and Lin), nor were they mottled "Uber-Hai" grunts like Busiek said. The Hyborian nations (Hyperboreans were as Hyborian as the Aquilonians) put cavalry foremost.”-deuce
It is good that you brought this up.
In a way I feel that Howard is giving a contradictionary description of Hyperboreans, in different texts of his.
“…Hyperboreans, who are civilized and dwell in cities.” – with advanced cavalry.
Vs.
“gigantic blond savages, not much more advanced than ape-men.” + “a race scarcely emerged from the polished stone age.”
It is almost like Howard himself couldn’t make up his mind about the nature of the Hyperborea. Or is it simply the way Hyperborea changed in itself from being one to being the other in such a quik series of events?
It is clear, however, that at the time of Conan, Hyperboreans truly were as he described them: Large, slow of speech and violent, more like the ape-men. How did they stay that way while their civilization grew more profound?
"The rise of this kingdom [Elder Hyperborea] drove forth many other tribes, for, defeated in war, or refusing to become tributary to their castle-dwelling kinsmen, many clans set forth on long treks that took them half-way around the world. And already the more northern tribes are beginning to be harried by gigantic blond savages, not much more advanced than ape-men. (p354)
The blond savages of the far north [proto-Nordheimr] have grown in power and numbers so that the northern Hyborian tribes move southward, driving their kindred clans before them. The ancient kingdom of Hyperborea is overthrown by one of these northern tribes, which, however, retains the old name. (p354)" -deuce
This did not dishearten me about my views, but only strengthened them! I am afraid that I will make myself appear as the new Giorgio Tsoukalos, but I must say it: “FINNS!”
Ancient finns, that is, or whatever they were called back then, before the world took it's shape.
If I think about the prehistory of my own area, where I live right now, I can’t help but find alikeness, and being scared of how alike it sounds!  I doubt even Howard could write something so close to what was later discovered through historical research. Shortly put: The stone-club culture pushed form the north, met the comb-ceramic culture that lived around here, the string-ceramic culture also got in between and WHAM! All infused together. Then the cooling of the climate drove everyone away for a long, long time…
My way of making it short. You must forgive me my naïve style of writing. (and my disability to use quotes correctly. Still learning.)
But this all sounds way too closely knit to Howard’s story and I have to question either my own thinking or someone else’s along the way…. It’s just too convenient. But still oh so fachinating! Ö.Ö I am quite sure, that the story is not unique in the world, as tribes and cultures have the tendency to move around, especially in prehistory. I'd like to encourage someone to support the Russian theory in alike manner.
Personally, I do not think that the fact that CONAN disliked Hyperborea, has anything to do with the writer's own opinion. Conan the character had much reason to dislike them, after all. The writer did what Conan told him... 
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Post by deuce on May 11, 2016 0:56:50 GMT -5
And while you haven't told anyone to "stop", you have highly criticized and questioned and challenged evvvvrything on here. Give us a break! I haven't even been online for several days, Venaala. By all means, take a "break" and let your daydreams run wild! Let nothing stand in your path. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2016 14:57:13 GMT -5
Which Hyperborea are we talking in this thread? The first Hyperborea or the latter Hyperborea? The Elder hyperboreans or the ones that enslaved them?
Could you make a list of charasteristics and details that are mentioned about these people, and separate them for us, please? Liek this:
Squirrels Hedgehogs Got tail Got spikes Jump good roll in a ball
Then maybe make a note on which we are talking about, since there is such a great contrast between them. Are we talking the Hyperboreans who are "cultured and living in cities" or the "race scarcely emerged from the polished stone age" ? Or maybe some Hyperborea separate from those two? Overall, it seems rather contradictional and confusing, so please could you clear it out.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2016 17:38:04 GMT -5
The final batch of quotes from Robert E. Howard pertinent to the Hyperboreans. Here are the entries from The Bloody Crown of Conan (Del Rey): “They are the Shemitish mercenaries of Constantius, the Kothic voivode of the Free Companies.” (p245) “Better death than the black shame that has come upon Khauran this day,” he groaned. “Did you see it, Ivga?” (p249) The other was dressed like them in a white, girdled khalat and a flowing head-dress which, banded about the temples with a triple circlet of braided camel-hair, fell to his shoulders. But he was not a Shemite. The dusk was not so thick, nor Conan’s hawk-like sight so clouded that he could not perceive the man’s facial characteristics. He was as tall as Conan, though not so heavy-limbed. His shoulders were broad and his supple figure was hard as steel and whalebone. A short black beard did not altogether mask the aggressive jut of his lean jaw, and grey eyes cold and piercing as a sword gleamed from the shadow of the kafieh. Quieting his restless steed with a quick sure hand, this man spoke: “By Mitra, I should know this man!” (p254) “There’s only one of your breed in these parts,” muttered Conan. “You are Olgerd Vladislav, the outlaw chief.” “Aye! And once a hetman of the kozaki of the Zaporoskan River, as you have guessed.” (p255) It is rumored that he has become the right-hand man of Olgerd Vladislav, the kozak adventurer who wandered down from the northern steppes and made himself chief of a band of Zuagirs. (p258) Baring his teeth in a snarl, Olgerd lifted his hand – then paused. There was something about the confidence in the Cimmerian’s dark face that shook him. His eyes began to burn like those of a wolf. “You scum of the western hills,” he muttered. “Have you dared seek to undermine my power?” “I didn’t have to,” answered Conan. “You lied when you said I had nothing to do with bringing in the new recruits. I had everything to do with it. They took your orders, but they fought for me. There is not room for two chiefs of the Zuagirs. They know I am the stronger man. I understand them better than you, and they, me; because I am a barbarian too.” (p266) An excerpt from a letter by Robert E. Howard from The Conquering Sword of Conan (Del Rey)
Where does it say in this text, that there was a Hyperborean in question? The dark beard doesn't fit the stereotype.
Overall, I do not quite agree with the general opinion here being that the Hyperboreans would be the kozak, or even related. In earlier excerpt there have been mention that there are Hyperborians AMONG the cavalry forces, that' all. Also, the stepped go eat beyond Hypeborea. If we look at the map (the map which I am looking at, is in my Conan books of the first ever published edition outside the Weird Tales.) the borderlines of Hypergorea go pretty precisely over Finland.
Bare in mind that Russia didn't even exist until fairly recently(late medieval). This ofcourse doesn't mean that the author couldn't have fantasized something alike in earlier times but I still seem to lack "that something" that really connects the descriptions of Hyperborea and hyperborean people to Russia. They seem to have a significant difference in the general "feeling" about them. The feeling which is described in the past as " I wouldn't describe the russian people at all the way they seem to be described in the few details that we have. And posting photos about Russian-looking images you have looked up just for the purpose doesn't make it work either. Sorry!
Just to balance with that I will post a series of finnish pictures in a few, to help you get a bit of the "feeling" that I am talking about. The feeling of dangerous heaviness that seems to linger upon text whenever Hyperboreans are mentioned. It is not, in my opinion, at all a Russian characteristic, yet very much finnish. Anyhow that coming soon...
Without trying to belittle the creative power of Mr. Howard's mind alone we cannot look past the influence he may have caught from the Greece mythology, concerning Hyperborea. After all, he named the place Hyperborea - as was the northern kingdom labeled by the Greece.
"7th-century BC poet Aristeas wrote of the Hyperboreans in a poem called Arimaspea about a journey to the Issedones, who are estimated to have lived in the Kazakh Steppe. Beyond these lived the one-eyed Arimaspians, further on the gold-guarding griffins, and beyond these the Hyperboreans." - This is the first ever mention of Hyperborea in Greek mythology. After that, hundreds of wilds legends about it has been produced. everyone here can use google, so go ahead if you want to read more. But two things are good to take note of: It is called "The land beyond the northern wind" and a place where sun never sets. To sun not ever set, atleast not during summer, can only occure very far north close and beyond the arctic circle. This, ofcourse is not Howard's Hyperborea, but I assume, that just from he fact that it wields the same name, we can assume he's atleat heard about it. And that he knew the Greek Hyperborea to be beyond the "Steppes", and a whole another place.
Overall, I do not agree with the connection to Russians. It just doesn't really match, in my opinion. The only thing there I find suitable to russkies and not so characteristic of finns, are the horses. Were there no horses mentioned in connection to Hyperboreans by howard, there likely wouldn't be any question of the matter. Atleast not on my perspective.
Jut a little wonder... The first ever novel written in finnish by a finn, "The Seven Brothers", was first published in English at 1929. It was quite a noteworthy publishing at the time, beign something so new and different. Around the same times Howard began to publish his stories of Conan. In the Seven Brothers, the boys are very much described as Hyperboreans are in Howards books. This may be far fetched but I wonder if it would have been possible for Howard to have picked that book up, when it was first published? Maybe through this culture enthusiastic friend of his whose name escapes me now - and who helped him to find some sources and inspiration from Europe. They met around those times. Anyhow this is just a thought. I can't help but think of the description of the Seven Brothers, when reading the description of Hyperboreans.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2016 20:16:23 GMT -5
As promised... some of that slow speech for you.
stone-men of the railway station 
Big-house Antti and Rannanjärvi 
Sven Dufva 
Raatajat rahanalaiset by Gallen Kallela.
All very famous pieces of art or famous characters. What do they have in common? It's all about the pout and the "feeling" I was talking about earlier. But you must all think me crazy by now. Jut tell me that the "dangerous violent types of slow speech" and other details match better with russian characteristics, than this set here. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2016 5:36:59 GMT -5
The finns also had their "cycklopean walls". In a much more common scale than lets say, the horse-hide-tent-luving mongols, who were nomads over all. The finns built solid homesteads and fortresses from a very early times, ans compared to people who live in "horse-hide tents", such ad the nomadicc tribes of the Steppes, the finns are alot more stationary. Again, in my opinion, if you leave out the mention of horses in the context, it all suits rather well for finns. Thankyou for your references of writers and enthusiasts that support the connection witj Russia. Perhaps you could next search for references from fans-writers who support with their creations and ideas the Finland theory. I know that they are many. I just happen to be the only one on this forum. |
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Post by deuce on Sept 8, 2016 21:49:47 GMT -5
The finns also had their "cycklopean walls". In a much more common scale than lets say, the horse-hide-tent-luving mongols, who were nomads over all. What "cycklopean walls" in Finland are you talking about? |
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Post by deuce on Sept 8, 2016 21:54:21 GMT -5
It's all about the pout and the "feeling" I was talking about earlier. Yes. I don't know how many times Robert E. Howard mentioned the "poutiness" of the Hyperboreans. Too many to count, really. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2016 9:05:33 GMT -5
A few good references here on this thread to Howard’s Hyperboreans ( although I don’t understand Deuce posting the stocky depictions by the artist McBride from the Medieval Russian Armies collection Osprey publishing in the opening posts of this thread, that and his erroneous if not fanciful assertions that the Hyperboreans are based on the Russians). Hyperboreans are not Russians, not Slavs, early Slavs had been mostly an unwarlike agricultural people that reared flocks and herds, REH never described the fortress dwelling Hyperboreans as such. To compare the Hyperboreans to the Russians is just speculation, unsupported by text in the core material. As for King Tomar of Hyperborea. Tomar is an old Indo European name. REH could have picked up the name from various sources. For instance the 10th century Tomar who was an earl, a Jarl, of the Danes, came to Limerick, got up to all sorts of mischief starting with the burning of the monasteries of Iniscaltra, Muckinnis and Clonmacnois. Much more likely since REH was very well versed in the Irish annals. So why the run down on so much unrelated material to do with the Russians. Nor are they, the Hyperboreans, Finnish. The Finns descendant from hunter gatherers, originally from the Urals, that gradually made their way to Finland from the Baltics around two thousand years ago, somewhat displacing the earlier arrivals, sparse groups of Lapps. Most of the history of the Finns had to do with subjugation under the Swedes and Russians who also culturally advanced and influenced the developed of Finland. Nothing written by REH suggests Hyperboreans are Finnish. Note that the Finns speak a non Indo European language that belongs to another language family. The confusion by some Posters to relate both the Russians and the Finns with the Hyperboreans has to do with the geographical location of Hyperborea which corresponds to north east Europe. Bottom line, REH never said that Hyperboreans where Russians or Finns. The Hyperboreans began as a rude barbaric kingdom, eventually became a civilised Hyborian power although more aloof than the other Hyborian nations. Hey man! Good to see someone new, and I like you already!  I'd make a quote of all your previous posts, but I don't really know how to do that. xD I'm hopeless that way...
Anyhow, I totally agree, that this thread here has slipped way, way far from the actual writing of REH on the subject. I have been hesitant to quote this or that, because atm. I am not able to check the books myself, to see what it really red there. Some context seems to be a little aloof of the context, yeah...and spiced up with a lot of this and that, which is purely fan-fiction and ideas. And fan-fiction is always equal with other fan-fiction, isn't it?
I don't think anyone really wants to say that Hyperborea IS Russia! Or that it IS Finland. We are just speculating and playing with similarities here. It started from me reading something about it, and getting exited by the facts that much of it reminds me of my own home-country. And Deuce started this thread to prove me wrong and to oppose my idea! So that is what is going on here, pretty much. Sorry about that.
But while we are at it, wont you let us speculate and let our imaginations run wild with ideas? No harm done, right? And the more exited we get, the better, no? I think it only a good thing, that even the few lines that REH has written about the subject, has expanded out of those lines into great, vast, wide and wild ideas! It is ofcourse a bit silly, that we refer to what we know of the actual world in comparison. But then again...wasn't that what REH wanted to pass with his "age undreamed of" aswell? The glimpse of a possibility of it once being so.
Oh....and about "Nor are they, the Hyperboreans, Finnish. The Finns descendant from hunter gatherers, originally from the Urals, that gradually made their way to Finland from the Baltics around two thousand years ago, somewhat displacing the earlier arrivals, sparse groups of Lapps." What about the Giants, which the lapps - in their own tales - conquered the land from, in the age undreamed of?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2016 9:19:50 GMT -5
It's all about the pout and the "feeling" I was talking about earlier. Yes. I don't know how many times Robert E. Howard mentioned the "poutiness" of the Hyperboreans. Too many to count, really. “There were tall Hyperboreans, gaunt, bigboned, of slow speech and violent natures; (p162)”
"There was a giant Hyperborean renegade, taciturn, dangerous, with a broadsword strapped to his great gaunt frame – for men wore steel openly in the Maul. (p67)
The general charasteristics and most importantly, the feeling and the mood and the nature of the character that a writer wants to describe with the words that he is using. You can take a description word-by-word, but it is just as important to get what kind of an image is painted by those words. I think that my photos match with the mood of the description.
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Really, this is almost like you are trying to abuse me with your pointing finger. Like I said, I am not going to try to correct any of your claims. And I think and write what I like. If I can I try to inspire others spread some fun and good will, while doing that. How about you try doing the same sometimes. Duuuuude! 
Everyone hear/reads it differently, and to everyone it has different meanings. It is ment to inspire, and be told forward, in the way the next teller wants to tell it. A story is never complete. It changes according to the time, the teller, the motives, the memory... and we must let it happen.
I doubt even Howard could write something so close to what was later discovered through historical research. Shortly put: The stone-club culture pushed form the north, met the comb-ceramic culture that lived around here, the string-ceramic culture also got in between and WHAM! All infused together. Then the cooling of the climate drove everyone away for a long, long time…
I'd make a quote of all your previous posts, but I don't really know how to do that. xD I'm hopeless that way...