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Post by monolith on Feb 14, 2019 11:27:48 GMT -5
Watched Creed 2 last night. the actor who portrays Creed's nemesis Viktor Drago - Florian Munteanu could make for a very feral and very intimidating younger cinematic Conan. He is some size of a loon!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2019 17:48:57 GMT -5
Watched Creed 2 last night. the actor who portrays Creed's nemesis Viktor Drago - Florian Munteanu could make for a very feral and very intimidating younger cinematic Conan. He is some size of a loon! Yeah, he looks the part. I think it'd work as a joint German-Turkish production.
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Post by Von K on Feb 16, 2019 14:36:33 GMT -5
The comparisons between Conan and the Man With No Name are not meant to be taken too literally. Some observations from Steve Tompkins serve to clarify a couple of points of similarity and difference. My original post was only meant to be an observation that both Conan and Joe/Manco/Blondie aren't men to be trifled with, not a suggestion that they're interchangeable. Reading those excerpts that you quoted, VK, it seems that all of them save the last serve to describe Eastwood's 'hero' exactly. ...... I wasn't taking a dig at your good self Kail. That comment was really directed at more casual readers of the thread out there who may not be aware of the nuances and probably should have stated such initially. I know that as a life long REH fan you're more aware than most of the subtleties involved, as was Ironhand. You might be interested in his observations on the matter, and I saved his Conan TV pitch for my own interest and reference, but I'd be loath to repost it here without his permission. It is a very apt comparison, and not just limited to Conan's character. REH was already pioneering the hard-boiled western counterculture/reaction to more romanticised notions of the old west many decades before Leone. REH’s firm grounding in the realities of Texas history made it inevitable. REH could even be said to anticipate the post spaghetti western to some degree (there's a scene in Vultures of Whapeton that almost prefigures one in High Plains Drifter, for instance).
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Post by charleshelm on Feb 17, 2019 11:28:18 GMT -5
All good, VK. Any notions of the romanticised view of the West that I might have had after being presented with the films of Audie Murphy, Randolph Scott - 'RANDOLPH SCOTT' - John Wayne etc on the TV as a youngster were swiftly put to rest when I saw a film called The Ox-Bow Incident (and also read the book). That film, as well as others like The Searchers and some of the later James Stewart ones, was a good bit darker and more complicated - although I suppose the Dollar films took it to a whole other level. ...... In a more recent movie, I thought Unforgiven did a good job of taking excessive romanticism out of the western and putting some grim reality in.
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Post by charleshelm on Feb 17, 2019 21:46:11 GMT -5
Yeah....good move to change the title...and that's one of the great lines in it.
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Post by kemp on Feb 18, 2019 6:50:18 GMT -5
Gritty westerns are a great inspiration for good sword & sorcery films. For instance, the fantasy movie Hawk the Slayer, Hawk and his friends protecting the nuns in the convent from Voltan and his brigands has echoes ( intentional or unintentional ) in The Magnificent Seven from 1960 ( itself inspired by Kurosawa's The Seven Samurai ).
We are talking about a whole treasure trove of ideas from the 50's through to the 70's. High Plains Drifter, A Man Called Horse and The Wild Bunch just to name a few. I'm not saying that movie producers should rip these movies off slide for slide, but that they should reflect on some of the basic ideas, the drama, dialogue and intense story telling.
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Post by Von K on Feb 18, 2019 8:41:36 GMT -5
Gritty westerns are a great inspiration for good sword & sorcery films. For instance, the fantasy movie Hawk the Slayer, Hawk and his friends protecting the nuns in the convent from Voltan and his brigands has echoes ( intentional or unintentional ) in The Magnificent Seven from 1960 ( itself inspired by Kurosawa's The Seven Samurai ). We are talking about a whole treasure trove of ideas from the 50's through to the 70's. High Plains Drifter, A Man Called Horse and The Wild Bunch just to name a few. I'm not saying that movie producers should rip these movies off slide for slide, but that they should reflect on some of the basic ideas, the drama, dialogue and intense story telling. If I remember rightly Hawk was an intentional riff om Magnificent Seven. I agree with your general point there Kemp, for certain kinds of S+S yarns, but think it would be done most effectively by a writer/production team who sufficiently understand the nuances of both genres enough to translate the tropes and themes at a fundamental level, rather than just porting across the general premise like Hawk seemed to do.
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Post by Von K on Feb 18, 2019 8:47:05 GMT -5
All good, VK. Any notions of the romanticised view of the West that I might have had after being presented with the films of Audie Murphy, Randolph Scott - 'RANDOLPH SCOTT' - John Wayne etc on the TV as a youngster were swiftly put to rest when I saw a film called The Ox-Bow Incident (and also read the book). That film, as well as others like The Searchers and some of the later James Stewart ones, was a good bit darker and more complicated - although I suppose the Dollar films took it to a whole other level. ...... In a more recent movie, I thought Unforgiven did a good job of taking excessive romanticism out of the western and putting some grim reality in. Unforgiven was a great movie. Imho, makes for a nice bookend to the twentieth century western.
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Post by kemp on Feb 18, 2019 14:55:25 GMT -5
Gritty westerns are a great inspiration for good sword & sorcery films. For instance, the fantasy movie Hawk the Slayer, Hawk and his friends protecting the nuns in the convent from Voltan and his brigands has echoes ( intentional or unintentional ) in The Magnificent Seven from 1960 ( itself inspired by Kurosawa's The Seven Samurai ). We are talking about a whole treasure trove of ideas from the 50's through to the 70's. High Plains Drifter, A Man Called Horse and The Wild Bunch just to name a few. I'm not saying that movie producers should rip these movies off slide for slide, but that they should reflect on some of the basic ideas, the drama, dialogue and intense story telling. If I remember rightly Hawk was an intentional riff om Magnificent Seven. I agree with your general point there Kemp, for certain kinds of S+S yarns, but think it would be done most effectively by a writer/production team who sufficiently understand the nuances of both genres enough to translate the tropes and themes at a fundamental level, rather than just porting across the general premise like Hawk seemed to do. I suppose if Hawk was a direct rip off from 1960's western, the same could be said for The Magnificent Seven when held against The Seven Samurai. They all stand on their own feet, and have enough differences to make them good movies in their own right. In terms of Hawk the Slayer it might not be that obvious on casual scrutiny. I was interested in some of the shared themes. Good point about the production teams being able to successfully translate those tropes and themes across the genres at a fundamental level.
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Post by Von K on Feb 18, 2019 16:47:26 GMT -5
If I remember rightly Hawk was an intentional riff om Magnificent Seven. I agree with your general point there Kemp, for certain kinds of S+S yarns, but think it would be done most effectively by a writer/production team who sufficiently understand the nuances of both genres enough to translate the tropes and themes at a fundamental level, rather than just porting across the general premise like Hawk seemed to do. I suppose if Hawk was a direct rip off from 1960's western, the same could be said for The Magnificent Seven when held against The Seven Samurai. They all stand on their own feet, and have enough differences to make them good movies in their own right. In terms of Hawk the Slayer it might not be that obvious on casual scrutiny. I was interested in some of the shared themes. Good point about the production teams being able to successfully translate those tropes and themes across the genres at a fundamental level. Hope I'm not being too harsh on Hawk. It's a long long time since I saw it and my memories are vague. I thought I recalled seeing a making of documentary where they stated up front that it was based on Magnificent Seven but I could be conflating it with Battle Beyond the Stars. What with Star Wars being based on The Fortress and Fistful of Dollars being based on Yojimbo which was based on Red Harvest - it all makes my head spin.
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Post by kemp on Feb 19, 2019 3:24:18 GMT -5
I suppose if Hawk was a direct rip off from 1960's western, the same could be said for The Magnificent Seven when held against The Seven Samurai. They all stand on their own feet, and have enough differences to make them good movies in their own right. In terms of Hawk the Slayer it might not be that obvious on casual scrutiny. I was interested in some of the shared themes. Good point about the production teams being able to successfully translate those tropes and themes across the genres at a fundamental level. Hope I'm not being too harsh on Hawk. It's a long long time since I saw it and my memories are vague. I thought I recalled seeing a making of documentary where they stated up front that it was based on Magnificent Seven but I could be conflating it with Battle Beyond the Stars. What with Star Wars being based on The Fortress and Fistful of Dollars being based on Yojimbo which was based on Red Harvest - it all makes my head spin. Not at all, rip off or influences, you have every right to an opinion. Actually, I made the comparison between Hawk the Slayer and the 1960’s ‘Magnificent Seven’ without reading any prior review on the film that mentioned it, I was only aware of it when I did an online search. I am actually a fan of those last stand themes, one of my favourite scenes from the original Conan the Barbarian movie was where Conan and Subotai prepare for battle by setting traps and fight Thulsa Doom’s raiders on the mounds, two against many type of thing. The rough terrain is actually reminiscent of some of the semi deserts and plains often associated with westerns. Interesting that you mention Battle Beyond The Stars since it also starred Robert Vaughn, who played the same sort of role in the sci fi as he did in the earlier The Magnificent Seven. Been some time since I have seen that one.
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Post by Von K on Feb 20, 2019 8:18:24 GMT -5
I suppose if Hawk was a direct rip off from 1960's western, the same could be said for The Magnificent Seven when held against The Seven Samurai. They all stand on their own feet, and have enough differences to make them good movies in their own right. In terms of Hawk the Slayer it might not be that obvious on casual scrutiny. I was interested in some of the shared themes. Well, ultimately, I recognise that borrowing a premise from one genre and porting it into another is a common and useful practice in the writing world of course, as is modeling a narrative on the tried and tested structure of a classic. In retrospect the real (minor) gripe I had with Hawk (and Battle) was that the setting seemed too generic. When a premise is ported from Samurai to Western for instance there are two solid historical settings to ground everything. The Star Wars setting always seemed stronger than any of it’s spin offs perhaps because Lucas did a lot of behind the scenes worldbuilding on his Star Wars setting that never got to the screen, at least until the prequels. Similarly, with REH, how much worldbuilding he did behind the scenes which never initially saw print but which informed and gave greater coherence to the published yarns. Not only the Hyborian Age essay but also his prior work on the Thurian Age which also informed the Hyborian material, not to exclude his incorporation and modification of elements from the Mythos. I'm kind of partial to last stands too, btw. David Gemmell's books have got some good ones in the Heroic Fantasy/Swords and Sorcery genre. He also creates some great fantasy versions of historically based cultures, events and personalities in his Rigante, Troy and Parmenion series.
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Post by kemp on Feb 21, 2019 7:07:27 GMT -5
I suppose if Hawk was a direct rip off from 1960's western, the same could be said for The Magnificent Seven when held against The Seven Samurai. They all stand on their own feet, and have enough differences to make them good movies in their own right. In terms of Hawk the Slayer it might not be that obvious on casual scrutiny. I was interested in some of the shared themes. In retrospect the real (minor) gripe I had with Hawk (and Battle) was that the setting seemed too generic. When a premise is ported from Samurai to Western for instance there are two solid historical settings to ground everything. Up to this day I still have no idea if Hawk’s world was meant to be some other place and time far removed from our world or if it straddled some corner of a kingdom of the High Middle Ages bordering on other dimensions. It certainly took licence in terms of design, weaponry and costuming. If nothing else it was a fun movie, very enjoyable to watch.
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Post by kemp on Feb 21, 2019 7:12:45 GMT -5
I suppose if Hawk was a direct rip off from 1960's western, the same could be said for The Magnificent Seven when held against The Seven Samurai. They all stand on their own feet, and have enough differences to make them good movies in their own right. In terms of Hawk the Slayer it might not be that obvious on casual scrutiny. I was interested in some of the shared themes. Well, ultimately, I recognise that borrowing a premise from one genre and porting it into another is a common and useful practice in the writing world of course, as is modeling a narrative on the tried and tested structure of a classic. In retrospect the real (minor) gripe I had with Hawk (and Battle) was that the setting seemed too generic. When a premise is ported from Samurai to Western for instance there are two solid historical settings to ground everything. The Star Wars setting always seemed stronger than any of it’s spin offs perhaps because Lucas did a lot of behind the scenes worldbuilding on his Star Wars setting that never got to the screen, at least until the prequels. Similarly, with REH, how much worldbuilding he did behind the scenes which never initially saw print but which informed and gave greater coherence to the published yarns. Not only the Hyborian Age essay but also his prior work on the Thurian Age which also informed the Hyborian material, not to exclude his incorporation and modification of elements from the Mythos. I'm kind of partial to last stands too, btw. David Gemmell's books have got some good ones in the Heroic Fantasy/Swords and Sorcery genre. He also creates some great fantasy versions of historically based cultures, events and personalities in his Rigante, Troy and Parmenion series. REH’s Hyborian Age seems the most realised of any fantasy/fictional world simply because of the research and inspiration drawn from historical accounts and study, not to mention mythology. Tolkien’s Middle Age is expansive, but the Hyborian Age feels as if it might have existed, not least the setting in the distant past. The place names and people lends it credibility. For instance, historical Cimmerians existed, and it is held by some experts in the field of historical studies that human civilisation might be far older than we realise, the world contains abandoned ruins of ancient cities in various locals. I have been looking to get a copy of David Gemmell’s Dark Moon.
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Post by Von K on Feb 21, 2019 12:42:53 GMT -5
Up to this day I still have no idea if Hawk’s world was meant to be some other place and time far removed from our world or if it straddled some corner of a kingdom of the High Middle Ages bordering on other dimensions. It certainly took licence in terms of design, weaponry and costuming. If nothing else it was a fun movie, very enjoyable to watch. Gotta give Hawk the Slayer credit for being a trailblazer and the first of its sort. But it would have aged better if written with a little more tongue in cheek like Battle Beyond the Stars.
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