CONAN THE SLAYER #11

[Char-Vell]

So I read the issue.
I liked it fine, but I don't recall the discussion about "why Khosatral would leave the dagger sitting around" being in the story. I need to re read it for that as well as to compare the relative "rapey-ness" of the Octavia interaction.

Also, The Octavia Interaction is the name of my new jazz fusion band.

[Char-Vell]

...And There needs to be a spinoff where Khosatral Khel recovers from being killed by Conan and causes trouble in various time periods, kind of like Christopher Lee's Dracula

[lordyam]

Here's the original

"You dare ask—" she began angrily, when she felt herself snatched off her feet and crushed to the hetman's muscular breast. She fought him fiercely, with all the supple strength of her magnificent youth, but he only laughed exuberantly, drunk with the possession of this splendid creature writhing in his arms.

He crushed her struggles easily, drinking the nectar of her lips with all the unrestrained passion that was his, until the arms that strained against them melted and twined convulsively about his massive neck. Then he laughed down into the clear eyes, and said: "Why should not a chief of the Free People be preferable to a city-bred dog of Turan?"

Basically Octavia resists, Conan ignores it and kisses her until she returns it. This buys into the "oh she doesn't really mean it keep at it and she'll return it."

The problem is......that's bullshit. MANY rapists have used that logic to justify their crimes and it is rather sexist (and not the sjw nonsense, REAL sexist). It's the same logic that leads people to believe women who are drunk can give consent.

I liked the story but it is genuinely sleazy.

[Von K]

Imho...

You’re spinning this way out of context. Conan may well have somewhat rude manners, but he’s clearly no rapist and Octavia is not drunk. The Agha and his cronies, from who’s clutches she has been rescued by Conan, fit your description far more closely. Conan not at all.

Here’s the rest:

…She shook back her tawny locks, still tingling in every nerve from the fire of his kisses. She did not loosen her arms from his neck. “Do you deem yourself an Agha’s equal?” she challenged. He laughed and strode with her in his arms toward the stair. “You shall judge,” he boasted. “I’ll burn Khawarizm for a torch to light your way to my tent.”

Clearly the subtext here is that she doesn’t entirely dissaprove. This sort of scene is closer to what would have been found in the spicy pulps, and would have been provocative in it's day, but is relatively tame compared with much of what you’ll find these days...in Game of Thrones for example…

You're making a big deal over something which is, in todays day and age, no more controversial than a scene from a romance novel.

[lordyam]

It's more this part

"She fought him fiercely, with all the supple strength of her magnificent youth, but he only laughed exuberantly, drunk with the possession of this splendid creature writhing in his arms.
He crushed her struggles easily, drinking the nectar of her lips with all the unrestrained passion that was his, until the arms that strained against them melted and twined convulsively about his massive neck"

The fact that Octavia clearly isn't interested and relents a while after Conan kisses and fights down her struggles. THAT is uncomfortably close to the "oh she doesn't really mean it when she says no" attitude that rapists often have (and yes many rapists have used that defense). When a woman says she's not interested and actively struggles against you than they aren't just going to suddenly relent.

THAT is what I find rapey. If Conan had just kissed her full on the lips, Octavia's eyes widen in shock, and she returns it after a few seconds then yeah okay that's cool. It's when she's physically resisting that I call foul

[Von K]

Ultimately, you’re entitled to your interpretation lordyam.

But think on this. Simply rewrite that whole scene with Conan acting as you would prefer he act and you will likely find yourself with a significantly different character. One who is essentially not Conan the Cimmerian at this point in his life.

El Borak would have acted differently, so would Turlogh Dubh, so would Cormac mac Art, and so would Kull - even Conan as King of Aquilonia. Conan of the Reivers from People of the Dark, however, would have acted similarly to the way a younger Hyborian Age Conan does here.

You’ll find a more nuanced treatment of some of these issues from REH with Olivia in Iron Shadows in the Moon. Octavia’s arc is somewhat summarised in Devil in Iron.

If you wanted to rewrite the scene in your minds eye, it would be better to expand and fill out Octavia’s character a little along the lines of Olivia than it would be to modify Conan.

That’s just my 2c.

[Jason Aiken]

Shit, this was pretty damn good sword-and-sorcery, makes me said to see this title ending.

I think it was Davila's best issue yet. If we only had someone who knew how to draw Conan during Van Lente's Avenger run...

Seeing the true form of Khosatral Khel was a shock, I didn't picture him looking like that... I always thought of him as a more Lovecraftian-type entity.

I'm looking forward to reading #12, but given that the title is basically cancelled, I'm sure it will be bitter sweet.