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Post by kemp on Nov 12, 2023 21:10:47 GMT -5
I suppose there has always been a bit of contention on the relationship of America's native population and the Turkic and nomadic people's of northeast Asia, but after a separation of thousands of years those links have become tenuous at best. Still, if you know where to look there are cultural bits and pieces, and I have read that the native Americans also have some connections to both south east Asian peoples and Mongols of Siberia, but what a quagmire. Yeah, a weird choice for the title of the book considering half of the people listed in this book are of Uralic, Tungusic, Paleo-Siberian and Yeniseian origin - and for some inexplicable reason the Mongols are not included!! Correction, the author did include the Turko-Mongol speaking Yellow Uygurs. I pencilled in my own notes in order to apply the correct linguistic affiliation of the various groups, even Uralic and Tungusic speakers are listed as Turkic!! or some simply as Altaic. The Alaskan Aleut (they are also listed as a Turkic People) are also in the book. ADDITIONAL NOTE: I noticed much of the info for this book is from the Joshua Project. Here's a link for the Ural-Siberian cluster including the Aleuts (they are described as Turkic people among others also found in this book): joshuaproject.net/clusters/311 They also included the Ainu of Japan and China, not sure if I agree, still, I can understand the Alaskan Aleut having closer ties to the Siberian peoples, being so far up north. I need to do more study on the linguistic side of the relationship. |
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Post by hun on Nov 13, 2023 16:45:08 GMT -5
Yeah, a weird choice for the title of the book considering half of the people listed in this book are of Uralic, Tungusic, Paleo-Siberian and Yeniseian origin - and for some inexplicable reason the Mongols are not included!! Correction, the author did include the Turko-Mongol speaking Yellow Uygurs. I pencilled in my own notes in order to apply the correct linguistic affiliation of the various groups, even Uralic and Tungusic speakers are listed as Turkic!! or some simply as Altaic. The Alaskan Aleut (they are also listed as a Turkic People) are also in the book. ADDITIONAL NOTE: I noticed much of the info for this book is from the Joshua Project. Here's a link for the Ural-Siberian cluster including the Aleuts (they are described as Turkic people among others also found in this book): joshuaproject.net/clusters/311 They also included the Ainu of Japan and China, not sure if I agree, still, I can understand the Alaskan Aleut having closer ties to the Siberian peoples, being so far up north. I need to do more study on the linguistic side of the relationship. Here's a map of the the Eskimo-Aleut languages:  I agree, the Ainu of Japan are not linguistically related to the Turkic or any of the other Siberian languages. Ainu is classified as a language isolate. The Ainu (Äynu) of China are not related to the Ainu of Japan. They live in Xinjiang, China and kinda speak a secret Turkic language mixed in with mainly Iranic words and speak Uygur in public. It is something I have come across in the UK with some young Turkish kids speaking English and applying suffixes in vowel harmony and the word order subject-object-verb from Turkish. Wiki link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Äynu_people |
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Post by hun on Nov 13, 2023 17:08:49 GMT -5
Here's a nice map to go with the one above with the the indigenous peoples of Siberia and their language groups (no colour code for the Yakuts?):  |
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Post by kemp on Nov 13, 2023 18:00:58 GMT -5
Here's a map of the the Eskimo-Aleut languages: I agree, the Ainu of Japan are not linguistically related to the Turkic or any of the other Siberian languages. Ainu is classified as a language isolate. The Ainu (Äynu) of China are not related to the Ainu of Japan. They live in Xinjiang, China and kinda speak a secret Turkic language mixed in with mainly Iranic words and speak Uygur in public. It is something I have come across in the UK with some young Turkish kids speaking English and applying suffixes in vowel harmony and the word order subject-object-verb from Turkish. Wiki link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Äynu_peopleThe Aleut languages seem to be spread out over a vast area of northern North America, even a small section of north eastern Asia. I see, so the Aynu of China might have originally been a nomadic Iranian group that adopted a form of the Turkic, leaving Persian trace elements in their language. Whereas the unrelated Ainu of Japan speak a language unrelated for the most part to any of their neighbours, language isolate as you note so to speak. Wonder if the Chinese Ainu have any relationship to the Iranian finds in the Taklamakan desert. |
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Post by kemp on Nov 13, 2023 18:15:48 GMT -5
Impressive map of the indigenous peoples of Siberia. I think some people may still have a misconception about Russia as simply the home of the European Slav Russians, without considering the wider sense of the name Russian which includes numerous Eurasian ethnicities, for instance the Yakuts whose ancestors might have included Turkic Kurykans. The largest republic of the Russian Federation is the Republic of Sakha ( Yakutia ) ![]()  |
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Post by hun on Nov 20, 2023 12:35:20 GMT -5
At last, some English translations of the Chinese sources, all we need now is the Yuanshi (History of the Mongol Yuan Dynasty).  The Rise of the Mongols: Five Chinese SourcesEdited and Translated, with an Introduction, by Christopher P. Atwood Rise of the Mongols offers readers a selection of five important works that detail the rise of the Mongol Empire through Chinese eyes. Three of these works were written by officials of South China's Southern Song dynasty and two are from officials from North China writing in the service of the Mongol rulers. Together, these accounts offer a view of the early Mongol Empire very different not just from those of Muslim and Christian travelers and chroniclers, but also from the Mongol tradition embodied in The Secret History of Mongols.
The five Chinese source texts (in English translation, each with their own preface):
Selections from Random Notes from Court and Country since the Jianyan Years, vol.2, by Li Xinchuan
"A Memorandum on the Mong-Tatars," by Zhao Gong
"A Sketch of the Black Tatars," by Peng Daya and Xu Ting
"Spirit-Path Stele for His Honor Yelü, Director of the Secretariat," by Song Zizhen
"Notes on a Journey," by Zhang Dehui
Also included are an introduction, index, bibliography, and appendices covering notes on the texts, tables and charts, and a glossary of Chinese and transcribed terms.
cloth (no dust jacket) 978-1-64792-002-9 $48.00 Paper 978-1-62466-990-3 $16.00 Forthcoming - September 2021 - 264 pp. Amazon Link: www.amazon.co.uk/Rise-Mongols-Five-Chinese-Sources/dp/1624669905/www.amazon.com/Rise-Mongols-Five-Chinese-Sources/dp/1624669905/...another translation by Christopher P. Atwood, this time the Secret History of the Mongols with a 109 pages in the introduction and 50 page glossary! Published by Penguin Classics at an affordable price for the 1st time!!  The Secret History of the MongolsTranslated by Christopher P. Atwood A new translation of a great historical epic, recounting the turbulent life and times of Chinggis Khan
'Bear the sword and
Hew asunder high and haughty necks
Slash apart all strong and self-willed shoulders'
Born poor into a world of dangers and hardships, Chinggis (or Genghis) Khan would grow up to unify Mongolia and conquer a vast empire stretching from modern-day Beijing to Baghdad. The Secret History of the Mongols, written after Chinggis's death in the thirteenth century, is a great historical saga recounting not only his turbulent life and times, but that of his loved ones, ancestors and heirs. This remarkable new translation of the earliest surviving work written in Mongolian gives insight into a world of warlords, kinship, horses, yurts, shamans and vast landscapes, where bloody battles and violent family conflicts are impelled by Heaven's destiny.
Translated with an introduction by Christopher P. Atwood
Links: www.amazon.co.uk/Secret-History-Mongols-Christopher-Atwood/dp/0241197910/www.amazon.com/Secret-History-Mongols-Christopher-Atwood/dp/0241197910/ |
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Post by hun on Nov 26, 2023 3:49:43 GMT -5
A new book on the wars between the Han dynasty of China and the Hunnic (Xiongnu) Empire of Mongolia. I've read a couple of books published by Pen & Sword and they're kinda weak on the editing side of things with authors repeating the same paragraph at least a couple times in the same book. Anyways:  Scott Crawford, The Han-Xiongnu War, 133 BC–89 AD (Hardback)
The Struggle of China and a Steppe Empire Told Through Its Key Figures
Description:
The Han-Xiongnu War (133 BC – AD 89) pitted the Han dynasty of China against a confederation of nomadic steppe peoples, the Xiongnu Empire. In campaigns waged on a huge scale by the standards of contemporary Western warfare (perhaps half a million soldiers were fielded at the Battle of Mobei in 119 BC), the two states fought for control of Central Asia, hungry for its rich resources and Western trade links. China’s victory set the stage for millennia of imperial rule and a vast sphere of influence in Asia.
Scott Forbes Crawford examines the war in a lively, engaging narrative. He builds a mosaic encompassing the centuries of conflict through biographies of fifteen historical figures: the Chinese and Xiongnu emperors who first led their armies into battle; ‘peace bride’ Princess Jieyou, whose marriage to a steppe king forged a vital Chinese alliance; the explorer-diplomat Zhang Qian, who almost-inadvertently established the Silk Road, among other key individuals. Their stories capture the war’s breadth, the enduring impact on Han society and statecraft in what became a Chinese golden age, and the doomed resistance of the Xiongnu to an ever-strengthening juggernaut.
Imprint: Pen & Sword Military Pages: 176 Illustrations: 20 b/w ISBN: 9781526790668 Amazon links: www.amazon.com/Han-Xiongnu-War-133-BC-89-AD/dp/1526790661/www.amazon.co.uk/Han-Xiongnu-War-133-BC-89-AD/dp/1526790661/ |
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Post by hun on Nov 26, 2023 13:23:46 GMT -5
Got tickets for Tuesday night, can't wait. |
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Post by Von K on Nov 26, 2023 19:33:21 GMT -5
Got tickets for Tuesday night, can't wait. Let us know what it was like Hun!
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Post by hun on Dec 10, 2023 1:04:04 GMT -5
Got tickets for Tuesday night, can't wait. Let us know what it was like Hun!
By Tengri, of course, it was a great night out. Apparently I missed the Mongol warriors on horseback, they were probably off plundering Oxford St at the time, but was greeted by a couple of Mongolian warriors at the door. It was great encountering so many Mongolians in the audience, not seen so many Mongols in one place for a long time now, and I kinda feel I need to get back out there one day, I miss the place and the people. Mongol Khan is set around 2 thousand years ago, during the time of the Huns ( Hunnu in Mongolian, which is based on the Xiongnu found in the Chinese sources), which is kinda weird cos the title Khan did not exist at the time, not until around the 4th century when the title Khan was adopted by the Turko-Mongol Tabgach (Tuoba) conquerors of northern China. Yet, I can understand why they did not go for the Chinese rendition of the Hunnic title Chanyu for the name of the play, it’d end up being something like 'Hun Chanyu', not quite as recognisable to a Western audience as 'Mongol Khan'. Translation of the original play is 'The State Without a Seal'. The plot is centred around Archug Khan (Fictional Hunnic King) his wife, Queen Tsetser and concubine Gurgel (both are called Khatun, translates as Lady or Queen as honorific title in Turkic and Mongolian). The legitimacy of Tsetser’s son Prince Achir is called into question and Gurgel’s son Prince Khuchir is chosen as heir to the throne. Egereg, the advisor to the Khan, who is Tsetser’s lover, and obviously the father of Achir decide to swap the kids so their son will become Khan. If you get that, great. Cos, I think I’m confused, I shoulda written this post a week ago. The costumes are based on recent finds from the Hunnic period, Scythian culture of the Altai and the ancient deer stone culture of Mongolia. The costumes look great and the mood of the actors are portrayed with great skill by the numerous dancers of the show. It is not a musical, but the show is accompanied by epic traditional Mongolian music with Mongolian throat singing, long song, the horse fiddle, zither, lute and Mongolian Biyelgee dancing. We also get a great battle at the end when Egereg makes his move... and a Matrix inspired finishing move! I resisted having a drink at the interval but could not resit the Mongol Khan graphic novel HC in glorious Black & White, still not read it yet. I wanna wait just a little bit longer before I dive in. When I do, I'll post some of the artwork on this thread. Overall, I loved it. |
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Post by hun on Dec 10, 2023 10:33:08 GMT -5
...an intriguing video on the origins of the Indo-European Iranic speaking Scythians and their Gods:
SCYTHIAN GODS: The Religion of the Steppe Horse Lords // DOCUMENTARY
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Post by Von K on Dec 12, 2023 17:25:18 GMT -5
Let us know what it was like Hun! By Tengri, of course, it was a great night out. Apparently I missed the Mongol warriors on horseback, they were probably off plundering Oxford St at the time, but was greeted by a couple of Mongolian warriors at the door. It was great encountering so many Mongolians in the audience, not seen so many Mongols in one place for a long time now, and I kinda feel I need to get back out there one day, I miss the place and the people. Mongol Khan is set around 2 thousand years ago, during the time of the Huns ( Hunnu in Mongolian, which is based on the Xiongnu found in the Chinese sources), which is kinda weird cos the title Khan did not exist at the time, not until around the 4th century when the title Khan was adopted by the Turko-Mongol Tabgach (Tuoba) conquerors of northern China. Yet, I can understand why they did not go for the Chinese rendition of the Hunnic title Chanyu for the name of the play, it’d end up being something like 'Hun Chanyu', not quite as recognisable to a Western audience as 'Mongol Khan'. Translation of the original play is 'The State Without a Seal'. The plot is centred around Archug Khan (Fictional Hunnic King) his wife, Queen Tsetser and concubine Gurgel (both are called Khatun, translates as Lady or Queen as honorific title in Turkic and Mongolian). The legitimacy of Tsetser’s son Prince Achir is called into question and Gurgel’s son Prince Khuchir is chosen as heir to the throne. Egereg, the advisor to the Khan, who is Tsetser’s lover, and obviously the father of Achir decide to swap the kids so their son will become Khan. If you get that, great. Cos, I think I’m confused, I shoulda written this post a week ago. The costumes are based on recent finds from the Hunnic period, Scythian culture of the Altai and the ancient deer stone culture of Mongolia. The costumes look great and the mood of the actors are portrayed with great skill by the numerous dancers of the show. It is not a musical, but the show is accompanied by epic traditional Mongolian music with Mongolian throat singing, long song, the horse fiddle, zither, lute and Mongolian Biyelgee dancing. We also get a great battle at the end when Egereg makes his move... and a Matrix inspired finishing move! I resisted having a drink at the interval but could not resit the Mongol Khan graphic novel HC in glorious Black & White, still not read it yet. I wanna wait just a little bit longer before I dive in. When I do, I'll post some of the artwork on this thread. Overall, I loved it. Thanks for the feedback Hun - glad it turned out great. Sounds like they put a lot of effort into making it authentic.
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Post by hun on Dec 13, 2023 16:56:40 GMT -5
By Tengri, of course, it was a great night out. Apparently I missed the Mongol warriors on horseback, they were probably off plundering Oxford St at the time, but was greeted by a couple of Mongolian warriors at the door. It was great encountering so many Mongolians in the audience, not seen so many Mongols in one place for a long time now, and I kinda feel I need to get back out there one day, I miss the place and the people. Mongol Khan is set around 2 thousand years ago, during the time of the Huns ( Hunnu in Mongolian, which is based on the Xiongnu found in the Chinese sources), which is kinda weird cos the title Khan did not exist at the time, not until around the 4th century when the title Khan was adopted by the Turko-Mongol Tabgach (Tuoba) conquerors of northern China. Yet, I can understand why they did not go for the Chinese rendition of the Hunnic title Chanyu for the name of the play, it’d end up being something like 'Hun Chanyu', not quite as recognisable to a Western audience as 'Mongol Khan'. Translation of the original play is 'The State Without a Seal'. The plot is centred around Archug Khan (Fictional Hunnic King) his wife, Queen Tsetser and concubine Gurgel (both are called Khatun, translates as Lady or Queen as honorific title in Turkic and Mongolian). The legitimacy of Tsetser’s son Prince Achir is called into question and Gurgel’s son Prince Khuchir is chosen as heir to the throne. Egereg, the advisor to the Khan, who is Tsetser’s lover, and obviously the father of Achir decide to swap the kids so their son will become Khan. If you get that, great. Cos, I think I’m confused, I shoulda written this post a week ago. The costumes are based on recent finds from the Hunnic period, Scythian culture of the Altai and the ancient deer stone culture of Mongolia. The costumes look great and the mood of the actors are portrayed with great skill by the numerous dancers of the show. It is not a musical, but the show is accompanied by epic traditional Mongolian music with Mongolian throat singing, long song, the horse fiddle, zither, lute and Mongolian Biyelgee dancing. We also get a great battle at the end when Egereg makes his move... and a Matrix inspired finishing move! I resisted having a drink at the interval but could not resit the Mongol Khan graphic novel HC in glorious Black & White, still not read it yet. I wanna wait just a little bit longer before I dive in. When I do, I'll post some of the artwork on this thread. Overall, I loved it. Thanks for the feedback Hun - glad it turned out great. Sounds like they put a lot of effort into making it authentic.
Still not read the graphic novel yet, managed to find the cover with some of the interior art online:  |
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Post by Von K on Dec 14, 2023 17:00:57 GMT -5
Thanks for the feedback Hun - glad it turned out great. Sounds like they put a lot of effort into making it authentic.
Still not read the graphic novel yet, managed to find the cover with some of the interior art online: Thanks Hun, looks stylish. Is it a hardcover?
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Post by hun on Dec 16, 2023 3:09:12 GMT -5
Still not read the graphic novel yet, managed to find the cover with some of the interior art online: Thanks Hun, looks stylish. Is it a hardcover?
Yeah, it is a hardcover., with a cloth front and back cover and no spine! The pages are not glued together and are in sewn binding so I'm a little apprehensive about reading it for now. I'm gonna pick up one of those clear book cover sleeves before diving in or at least be very careful if I cannot resist temptation. |
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