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Post by andys on Sept 26, 2017 14:30:28 GMT -5
I do agree with the point that if people really wanted to read comics they wouldn't have drifted off in the first place, so it's dubious that there's a huge unfulfilled audience out there eager to come back. At least not to Marvel and DC - plenty of people are reading manga from what I can tell?
Although things like distribution and pricing and such are certainly very important, I do think at the end of the day you need something that people will really want to buy and I'm dubious about the industry's current ability to provide that. I've checked out some highly regarded current series off and on and although some of them are, you know, fine, they don't really stick with me and they usually come across as pitches for TV and movie deals - the storytelling is very restrained, not very comics-like, not particularly imaginative or thrilling. I keep having to re-read the classics to get my fix.
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Post by mrp on Sept 26, 2017 14:46:38 GMT -5
I do agree with the point that if people really wanted to read comics they wouldn't have drifted off in the first place, so it's dubious that there's a huge unfulfilled audience out there eager to come back. At least not to Marvel and DC - plenty of people are reading manga from what I can tell? Although things like distribution and pricing and such are certainly very important, I do think at the end of the day you need something that people will really want to buy and I'm dubious about the industry's current ability to provide that. I've checked out some highly regarded current series off and on and although some of them are, you know, fine, they don't really stick with me and they usually come across as pitches for TV and movie deals - the storytelling is very restrained, not very comics-like, not particularly imaginative or thrilling. I keep having to re-read the classics to get my fix. Manga sales have been declining in the US for the last 4-5 years according to book scan which monitors the vast majority of sales in the book trade and offers a yearly report (Brian Hibbs used to analyze the yearly reports in his Tilting at Windmills column about comic retailing that used to be at CBR and is now at Comics Beat, and he shows there has been a steady decline in manga sales in the US for while. Not as severe a decline as the American comics industry has had, but still a steady decline. However, part of the decline might be attributable to the shift of manga reader to online content delivery (digital formats and subscriptions) rather than purchases of printed editions and the catalyst for that may have been the lose of Borders and other big box bookstores that provided accessibility to the print product for a large part of the customer base. Rather than switch to other stores or buying the books online, the customer base may have shifted to buying via legally available digital delivery (and some to torrent and pirate sites too where content is available but not legally). Look at the trends in American consumption where pricing and availability supersede quality of product. For example, McDonald's is cheap and accessible and far outsells better quality food options. This is a reality in the American marketplace that has to be contended with. Cheap and easy sells better than harder to get quality products, and cheaper lesser quality but easily accessible goods sell better than more expensive products of higher quality even if they are as easily accessible. Quality is subjective*, cheap and accessible are constants. -M *Those old classics you keep revisiting to get your fix are considered nearly unreadable and completely unappealing to a lot of today's fanbase, especially those who cut their eyeteeth on comics post-90s. Tastes change. You don't like the current stuff because your tastes were framed in a different era, bit someone whose tastes are framed in this era is going to have a different standard of what appeals to them. That's why it's hard to find answers for problems in the current marketplace in the products and methods of yesterday. |
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Post by Von K on Sept 26, 2017 20:53:53 GMT -5
I agree with Kurt's observation. *Those old classics you keep revisiting to get your fix are considered nearly unreadable and completely unappealing to a lot of today's fanbase, especially those who cut their eyeteeth on comics post-90s. Tastes change. You don't like the current stuff because your tastes were framed in a different era, bit someone whose tastes are framed in this era is going to have a different standard of what appeals to them. Any facts to back this up with? The success of the Marvel Movies, which are heavily based on Stan Lee and Jack Kirby's original work, characters and concepts to a large degree, and Kevin Feige's fidelity to that original vision, would seem to belie your statement. Many of the main comic titles however, no longer match their movie counterparts. That strategy seems to run completely counter to marketing logic, and confuses potental newcomers wanting more stories about their favourite characters. |
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Post by mrp on Sept 26, 2017 21:59:47 GMT -5
I agree with Kurt's observation. *Those old classics you keep revisiting to get your fix are considered nearly unreadable and completely unappealing to a lot of today's fanbase, especially those who cut their eyeteeth on comics post-90s. Tastes change. You don't like the current stuff because your tastes were framed in a different era, bit someone whose tastes are framed in this era is going to have a different standard of what appeals to them. Any facts to back this up with? The success of the Marvel Movies, which are heavily based on Stan Lee and Jack Kirby's original work, characters and concepts to a large degree, and Kevin Feige's fidelity to that original vision, would seem to belie your statement. Many of the main comic titles however, no longer match their movie counterparts. That strategy seems to run completely counter to marketing logic, and confuses potental newcomers wanting more stories about their favourite characters. Look at sales figures of collections of classic comics vs, collections of newer material. Look at how many attempts DC has made to collect classic material that get cancelled after 1 or 2 volumes becuase of oor sales vs. how many current series (virtually 95% of all their output) keep getting further volumes put out. Look at what Marvel collects of its classic material-almost always the same material in different formats sold to the same hardcore audience vs. what of that new material gets put out there (again 95% or more of the current output gets collected and keeps selling vs. a much smaller portion of their classic material. How much of the classic material becomes evergreen sellers? How many younger fans are seeking out the classic material via back issues or trades vs. seeking out new material. As poorly as new material is selling, the classic stuff is selling less. Ditko Spider-Man collections sell because it's Spider-Man's origins and there is demand for the back issues, but Ditko's other stuff is looked at as an anathema, and Ultimate Spider-Man (Bendis redoing of the Spider-Man mythos beginning in 2000) has sold better than classic Spider-Man collections during the time where both have been available. Many so called classic creators (your John Byrnes, Chris Claremonts, Roy Thomas; have fallen out of vogue, their storytelling style is considered clunky, too verbose, too interested in continuity porn vs, telling new stories etc. but the younger demographic int he current customer base. The classic stories may form the backbone of some of the film and tv shows, but not until it has been filtered through a modern lens to remove the modes of storytelling that are considered outdated and are unappealing to a lot of modern audiences, while books like Saga by Brian K. Vaughan (boosted by his participation in Lost as a writer) and Fiona Staples have bucked the trend and newer volumes are outselling earlier volumes, which have gone back to press several times, and new editions of it continue to sell, also fueled by recognition it has gotten winning numerous comic industry awards and even awards like the Hugo. We all love Buscema's Conan, but to a lot of current readers his style is dull, too many repetitive stock poses, too many backgroundless panels with just figures in the foreground like this for example forgive the small size of it...  which leads to criticisms of mailing it in and is considered dull or bad comic art. They are used to a much higher level of detail in their art, such as this Michael Lark page...  I don't agree with it always, but the mode of storytelling in comics has changed from the Bronze Age to the modern age, and those modes and standards do not resonate with modern audiences the way it did with us, which is no different than fans in the 70s and 80s complaining Golden age art like this...  was crude and dull. As we grew up we rejected the modes and standards of entertainment of the generations that preceded ours, yet we are in denial that the generations that came after us would do the same to the things we liked. There are other little nuanced things that bug modern consumers and make the product unappealing. Modern audiences do not like being interrupted by commercials and ads. DVR's, Netflix, etc. have enculturated the ability to consume entertainment without interruption. Some comic publishers have adapted to this-look at an Image comic-where are all the ad pages? In the back after the story has concluded, There are no ad pages interrupting the story. Neither Marvel nor DC has adapted to that in print, except in trades. Ad revenue is negligible these days (it's based on circulation and since circulation is low, ad rates have to be cheap to be appealing at all to advertisers). Companies like Image have forsaken outside ads altogether, the only ads in their books are house ads for other books or trades, again at the back not interrupting story pages and intruding on the entertainment experience. And since flow of pages, figuring out page turns for reveals and other things that affect how you tell the story in panels and pages depend on the flow of pages, a poorly placed ad can totally ruin a story experience by moving a left hand page to a right hand page ruining a suspenseful reveal or splitting up a 2 page sequence, etc. which I have seen happen on multiple occasions in Marvel and DC books through the years. If you want to get a sense of what is working in the marketplace look at what books become evergreen sellers. Look at what series are going back to print in trade collections. Look at what books are getting picked up by marketplaces like Scholastic (Ms. Marvel (Kamela Khan) and Moongirl & Devil Dinosaur are Marvel's two biggest sellers through Scholastic, which has more market outlets than the Direct Market of Diamond Distribution), see what books actually are finding a growth market and sustainable sales. They are out there, few and far between, but they are out there. Look at what comic type books are killing it in the book trade. Their not coming from Marvel and DC and they don't look like Bronze or Silver Age books. We like a lot of what we like because it is what we encountered as kids or adolescents. The same is true today, but what today's kids and adolescents are encountering and developing an affinity to is not what we encountered and developed an affinity for when we were younger. Us not getting that is like our parents not getting why we liked that noise we called rock music or those weird Saturday morning cartoons we watched. In fact things evolve and change faster now than they ever did before and things go out of vogue much faster than they ever did previously. While some core elements of the stories that define our (mass/pop) culture can remain consistent, the way those stories are told and the way we experience them change as the times do, or should if they are going to remain relevant. This is why the 18-35 demographic is so appealing to marketers, and content producers, their preferences are going to shape things moving forward and their moving into the period of their life with more disposable income while those of us in the over 35 demographic (particularly the over 45 Boomers and Gen X folks) are moving towards retirement where there is less disposable income and a smaller window of potential future purchases, so our tastes and preferences become less influential on the modes and methods of presenting entertainment and on the types of products available overall. Even sales of the Ultimate Spider-Man collections I mentioned earlier have started to decline a bit because those that encountered it in their youth and adolescence 17 years ago are moving towards the wrong end of the 18-35 demographic. Time marches on and with it the market and customer base continues to evolve. Products or industries that can't keep up fade and become irrelevant. Some of it may get preserved and transformed into new formats (the Marvel movies channeling the Lee-Kirby stuff) but the source material fades from prominence because of its modes and methods of presenting the story and the formats it is in that no longer have appeal in the marketplace. And that's why the focus on content to "save comics" becomes irrelevant because the best content presented using modes and methods that don't appeal to current audiences or in the form of a product that doesn't resonate in the current marketplace is still not going to sell regardless of quality. Yes, you need quality content eventually to keep customers, but it has to be in a palatable format and presentation to reach the customer first. -M |
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Post by Von K on Sept 27, 2017 7:37:26 GMT -5
Thanks for your reply mrp. You're still lacking solid facts to back up some of those claims though. It's bit unfair to compare a tiny b+w buscema pic to a big colour pic with slick digital inking. What about tracking down something from a modern Buscema reprint with digital inking? You may knock the old bronze age format as old fashioned, but a survey from the 40's indicated that 95% of men and 91% of women read comics back then, across a variety of genres. # According to the following article comic sales are on the rise, and are less affected by the digital market than other media. It states comic book readers prefer to collect the physical medium, and the digital sales are driven mostly by customers who cannot get to a local venue to purchase. Thus, for comics, digital sales complement and not compete with the physical sales: Full article: www.cnbc.com/2016/06/05/comic-books-buck-trend-as-print-and-digital-sales-flourish.htmlCheck out the graph comparing digital with trade and single issue. This seems to indicate that whilst sales on individual titles may be dropping, and the fortunes of companies vary, overall sales in the industry as a whole are going up, but across a broader range of titles. |
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Post by deuce on Sept 28, 2017 10:29:13 GMT -5
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Post by Von K on Sept 28, 2017 16:14:50 GMT -5
Thanks for the link Deuce! True Believer Kirby 100th seriesMighty Thor 22936 Captain America Lives Again 21941 Thor vs Hulk 20392 Black Panther 19603 Captain America 18294 Iron Man 17983 Groot 17703 Antman and the Wasp 14820 Inhumans 14524 Nick Fury 13666 Eternals 11926 Devil Dinosaur 11666 Total August 2017 sales = 205454 DC Kirby 100th SpecialsDarkseid Special 21492 New Gods Special 16508 Sandman Special 14014 Total August 2017 sales = 52014 Combined sales August 2017 = 257468!!! I know it’s not all on one title, but on the whole that's still a pretty sweet haul.  Wonder how Dark Horse would do if they ran some Barry Windsor Smith and Roy Thomas Conan classic originals as a single issue reprint series? |
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Post by deuce on Oct 10, 2017 13:47:17 GMT -5
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Post by deuce on Oct 16, 2017 12:04:03 GMT -5
Even Bleeding Cool has to admit that perhaps the Diamond shipping numbers don't reflect how many Marvel comics are actually being sold to customers. A good analysis here:
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2017 13:15:09 GMT -5
Even Bleeding Cool has to admit that perhaps the Diamond shipping numbers don't reflect how many Marvel comics are actually being sold to customers. A good analysis here: Thanks for the video Deuce. It's interesting, how easy it is to forget that the sales figures represent the sales to the retailers, not to the customers. Additionally, it's about time the publishers/creators/artists desist from laying the blame with the consumer. The comic industry has been on the decline for around 30 years, they have only themselves to blame for that. |
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Post by terryallenuk on Oct 18, 2017 9:02:13 GMT -5
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Post by terryallenuk on Oct 19, 2017 7:12:22 GMT -5
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Post by terryallenuk on Oct 20, 2017 5:38:11 GMT -5
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Post by mrp on Oct 21, 2017 1:51:05 GMT -5
Here are some numbers form ICv2 presentation at NYCC this month.... ICv2 Sales presentationBleeding Cool has an article about the presentation as they had correspondents in attendance at NYCC- BC articleHere are some of the major conclusions/points... Lots of demographics, the big one, 67% of all comic buyers are male, but a full third now are female, so much for the girls don't buy comics garbage we hear all the time. However, in comic book stores that number rises to 72% of the purchases being male while only 28% are female. The second big revelation-sales in comic book shops are flat and/or shrinking depending on the type of product, but sales in the book trade are growing, and if the trend continues at the current rate book trade sales will overtake comic shop sales within 3 years i.e. more comics will be sold outside Diamond's distribution network than within it. Also, since floppies i.e. single issues are not sold outside of Diamond in the US, that growth is coming from the sales of comics in other formats than the 20 page pamphlet. The third big revelation, 57% of all comics are bought by 13-29 year olds, so the audience is getting younger overall. However, less than half of the comics sold in comic book shops (47%) are bought by 13-29 year olds, so comic shop audiences are older and not bringing in as much of the youth market or younger readers, which also doesn't bode well moving forward as the comic shop audience continues to age out. More demographics from the article... and finally they do a demographic breakdown between super-hero purchasers and manga purchasers... And finally, she looked at the differences between superhero purchasers and manga purchasers: Another piece of information released in the last month, the new volume of Asterix is due to be released next month, presales for the volume are 5 million copies in Europe alone. The previous volume 2 years ago had presales of 5 million as well, and has sold a total of 8 million copies in Europe (more worldwide). The bestselling comic in the US recently was Batman Dark Metal which sold just under 250K copies, with multiple covers and minimum orders for retailers to get some of those covers propping up sales, meaning not all of those copies will reach end readers, and I doubt a year form now, it will have sold more copies equalling 60% of its initial sales on top of those initial sales. Furthermore, Asterix's publisher has once again seen a spike of 10-20% increase in sales of previous volumes of Asterix as retailers prepare for the release of the new volume, so the release of the new product is generating revenue form the sale of past product and because the publishers keep them in print, those sales go to the publisher not someone owning back issues of the books selling them off, and if the publisher gets the revenue, a chunk of it goes to the creators through royalties because their compensation system is built for the long term not the short term as the American compensation system is. So let's see, toy sum up-there's growth in comic sales in the American market outside Diamond's distribution and in formats that aren't monthly super-hero pamphlets and when super-heroes sell to the mass market it's not in the individual issues, it's in other formats. And in the non-American market, where that format is not used, there are consistent sales in vastly higher numbers and new products fuel the sales of past products, not sliding sales because of attrition and overall sales declining. It seems the American market is gaining a new audience, and it's younger and more diverse than previous audiences, and they're not going to comic shops and they're not buying monthly 20 page installments. The audience that buys those things is older, aging out and shrinking. So the question is, what are American publishers going to do about it. Unfortunately the answer seems to be doubling down on their pamphlets and the same old same old and ignore the growth that is out there for as long as their pamphlets are viable. In the meantime, Marvel has started to license it's characters out to other publisher s(or more accurately Disney has decided to license the characters out because it makes more money doing so than actually producing the books in house through Marvel) as Archie now produces a monthly digest of Marvel Super-Hero reprints, IDW has licensed Big Hero Six and Star Wars to produce all ages comics for them, may be doing the all ages books tied to Marvel's animated series rather than Marvel itself (oh and all the Disney characters-Mickey, Donald, Uncle Scrooge, Duck Tales, etc. are already licensed to IDW to make comics from already rather than given to Marvel their in house publisher to do so because it's more profitable to license them than to make them). One of the big reasons these two companies got the license, because both have infrastructure in place to sell the books outside the Diamond Direct Market as Archie still has newsstand distribution and sells digests in grocery stores, Wal*Mart, K-Mart, etc. and IDW also has distribution into toy stores (selling their books at Toys R Us) and several other big box stores (including Wal*Mart). So the writing is on the wall for the direct market and the traditional floppy format. Lots of people refuse to see it because they don't want to and would rather stick their head in the sand than face the reality that change is coming and unavoidable, but it's there, and some of the suits who control the money that funds the big American comics publishers are starting to see it to and make changes to their business models accordingly. Already some are starting to ask how long until Disney decides it can make more profit licensing all the Marvel characters out to another publisher and avoid the costs of running a publishing house altogether? The audience for comics is changing. The market for selling comics is changing. Comics have always changed to keep up with those 2 things, at least up until the last 25 years when it fossilized in its focus on the fan-driven direct market. Twenty-five years is a good run for one particular customer base, but that run is coming to an end and comics need to change to adapt tot he market place and to find that new audience to replace the one that is aging out. Make of it what you will, but the data is out there. -M |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2017 14:41:53 GMT -5
Some really interesting posts recently.
A couple of probable solutions.
1.
We're all accustomed to the previews of monthly comics, usually consisting of 5 or 6 pages, these should remain freely available online - the rest of the issue should be available for subscription in digital format only. I think $4 to $5 for a printed 20 page comic is just not justified anymore, unfortunately.
2.
If, according to the trend, graphics are selling or gonna be selling better than a 20 page monthly, what are they waiting for?
A couple of my concerns.
1.
There needs to be transitionary period, comic-shops have done a great job adapting to the market over the years and I feel some are probably a little more far-sighted than the big publishers, but, I feel if the first 2 steps are taken too quickly, without warning, it'll be really difficult for most comic-book shops.
2.
Why should the big publishers change anything? They can't lose when it comes to sales through Diamond and print to order. Only the retailer can lose.
If the creators are short-changed with royalties (if they exist at all) through non-Diamond sales of the Graphic novels. Again, it begs the question, the big guys don't need to change a thing. They're making money and take no risks. The only risk takers involved are the creators and retailers.
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