Conan in Turan

[lordyam]

I know that DeCamp and Carter came up with this, and I wanted to know how well the idea is received among the Howard fans. I personally didn't think it was too egregious (We know that Conan learned the bow in the east, and that he had engaged in imperial campaigns as a soldier before Black Colossus.) Being a Turanian soldier DOES provide an explanation for both of those that fit rather well. Then again the adventures I read were the ones Roy Thomas adapted into the comics so maybe that had something to do with it. 

How much DOES it fit in with Howards vision.

[johnnypt]

The only thing I think this bit could be extrapolated from is the archery part in Queen of the Black Coast. Of course it doesn't say whether it was in the army or with a bunch of bandits (or pirates since he was shooting ship to ship). We don't know who Conan was with when he was involved in the imperial campaigns mentioned in Black Colossus, if it was an actual army or a mercenary crew. There's nothing I remember from the two Vilayet stories (Iron Shadows & Devil In Iron) that would even hint that Conan had been gainfully employed by Yildiz or Yezdigerd.

I'd put it under the "yeah I guess it's OK" category, in that it doesn't specifically conflict with something we know for sure. But if someone wants to say he was never part of the Turanian army, he'd be more correct in terms of what's actually in the text (I think I'd probably fall in that category).

[buxom9sorceress]

Oct 6, 2016 13:33:45 GMT -5 johnnypt said:

The only thing I think this bit could be extrapolated from is the archery part in Queen of the Black Coast. Of course it doesn't say whether it was in the army or with a bunch of bandits (or pirates since he was shooting ship to ship). We don't know who Conan was with when he was involved in the imperial campaigns mentioned in Black Colossus, if it was an actual army or a mercenary crew. There's nothing I remember from the two Vilayet stories (Iron Shadows & Devil In Iron) that would even hint that Conan had been gainfully employed by Yildiz or Yezdigerd.

I'd put it under the "yeah I guess it's OK" category, in that it doesn't specifically conflict with something we know for sure. But if someone wants to say he was never part of the Turanian army, he'd be more correct in terms of what's actually in the text (I think I'd probably fall in that category).

Hi Johnny

i like your other ideas. Thanks.

i hope some fans can write those into some new short pastiches in future?

====

it was 1 of decamps better ideas, and was fine with me.

[themirrorthief]

I would like to do a prose version of that period based on one of Roy Thomas's great stories. I dont want to get in trouble with Marvel comics though...they got billions, I got a coupon for a happy meal at McDonalds     can they sue you for badly written fan fiction?

[lordyam]

Doubt it. Marvel doesn't have the liscencse and I've seen fan novelizations of things online (a redo of ultimates 2, and a retelling of the avengers vs xmen storyline). You're clear

[lordyam]

I know that L Sprague De Camp's pastiches had Conan working for the Turanian army for a time (and that he learned the bow in their service.) Personally I rather thought it worked out (when he's giving Yasmela his resume he describes wars of conquests and Turan was certainly active at the time, and it simplifies things by having him learn the bow at the same time.) 

But what do others think of it. Was it stupid like some of De Camp's other decisions?

[robp]

I did like the old CtB comic series where Conan and Fafnir join the Turanian fleet then later switch sides in the siege of Makkalet. It was a good run of stories and introduced Red Sonja AFAIR. Started off with Barry W Smith artwork, then switched to Joh Buscema I think

[johnnypt]

Serviceable enough. It's certainly an area that's a possibility for exploration. He had to go into that area at some point relatively early on in his career. That's not to say it's the only take on the situation, each of us could have our own ideas of how and when he ended up there that would fit in with Howard. I know Busiek had an idea about sending Conan (and his helmet) up there, but left before he got to it.

[Von K]

Hope it's not too pedantic to note that Conan actually learned archery, not in Turan, but among the Hyrkanians.

“Give me a bow,” requested Conan. “It’s not my idea of a manly weapon, but I learned archery among the Hyrkanians, and it will go hard if I can’t feather a man or so on yonder deck.”

REH, tQotBC

I was never fully convinced that REH would ever have had Conan working for the Turanians, but Roy Thomas did some great things with the notion, and like johnnypt says it works better for relatively early on in Conan's life, when he is too young and naive to have the experiences which fuel his later antipathy.

[lordyam]

That was kinda weird for me; the Ottomans could be brutal at times but they were hardly on the level of Ghengis Khan.

[deuce]

Nov 6, 2017 21:04:13 GMT -5 Von K said:

Hope it's not too pedantic to note that Conan actually learned archery, not in Turan, but among the Hyrkanians.

“Give me a bow,” requested Conan. “It’s not my idea of a manly weapon, but I learned archery among the Hyrkanians, and it will go hard if I can’t feather a man or so on yonder deck.”

REH, tQotBC

I was never fully convinced that REH would ever have had Conan working for the Turanians, but Roy Thomas did some great things with the notion, and like johnnypt says it works better for relatively early on in Conan's life, when he is too young and naive to have the experiences which fuel his later antipathy.

I'll counter your pedantry with even more pedantry!     While I don't have the exact passage(s) to hand, REH did conflate the two at least once in a Conan tale. The Turanians were, after all, Hyrkanians. They were simply the nearest to the Hyborian lands and the most powerful of all the Hyrkanian peoples. The situation is somewhat analogous to the actual Kushites of the kingdom of Kush and the use of the term "Kushite" for anyone from any of the Black Kingdoms. That said, I agree that Howard envisioning Conan fighting for the Turanians at any point seems unlikely.

[lordyam]

True; Roy Thomas did do a good job with it though. Siege of Makkalet is one of the best Conan pastiches out there (perfectly capturing how cynical warfare and religion are at the same time.) And I did like Conan's dalliance with Amytis (his commanding officer's mistress).

I can see why it was done. It streamlines a few things (Conan learning archery at the same time he gets a "war of conquest" to add to his resume) and it gives some nuance.

[Von K]

I checked out a few of those quotes you mentioned Deuce and, more often than not, when REH refers to Hyrkanians in the yarns it does seem he generally is referring to the Turanian Hyrkanians of the western Vilayet.

My bad, Lordyam; that archery quote could easily refer to the Hyrkanians of Turan (and I still think the biographies you posted in the fan section are cool).

[Deleted]

I think there is potential for an even earlier experience with the Hyrkanians - between The Frost-Giant's Daughter and The God in the Bowl.

In his letter to P. Schuyler Miller REH explains the following:

There was the space of about a year between Vanarium and his entrance into the thief-city of Zamora. During this time he returned to the northern territories of his tribe, and made his first journey beyond the boundaries of Cimmeria. This, strange to say, was north instead of south. Why or how, I am not certain, but he spent some months among a tribe of the Aesir, fighting with the Vanir and the Hyperboreans, and developing a hate for the latter which lasted all his life and later affected his policies as king of Aquilonia. Captured by them, he escaped southward and came into Zamora in time to make his debut in print. p.360, Conan of Cimmeria, Vol.3. 

In the Hyborian Age essay, the Hyrkanian tribes attack the eastern border of the Hyperboreans from the north end of the Vilayet Sea. These northern campaigns were not as successful as the southern attack of the Hyrkanians, where they established the Turanian Empire.

Over the years the Hyperboreans mixed with the captured northern Hyrkanians, Aesir and Zamorians - it is possible that Conan befriended a Hyrkanian prisoner during his capture. 

Now the Lemurians enter history again as Hyrkanians. Through the centuries they have pushed steadily westward, and now a tribe skirts the southern end of the great inland sea - Vilayet - and establishes the kingdom of Turan on the southwestern shore. Between the inland sea and the eastern borders of the native kingdoms lie vast expanses of steppes and in the extreme north and extreme south, deserts. The non-Hyrkanian dwellers of these territories are scattered and pastoral, unclassified in the north, Shemitish in the south, aboriginal, with a thin strain of Hyborian blood from wandering conquerors. Toward the latter part of the period other Hyrkanian clans push westward, around the northern extremity of the inland sea, and clash with the eastern outposts of the Hyperboreans. p.386, Conan of Cimmeria, Vol.1


The ancient kingdom of Hyperborea is more aloof than the others, yet there is alien blood in plenty in its veins, from the capture of foreign women - Hyrkanians, Aesir and Zamorians. p.386, Conan of Cimmeria, Vol.1

Anyway, here's one possibility.

Conan escaped with a Zamoran slave-girl and a Hyrkanian.

The Hyrkanian rejoined his kinsmen with Conan and the Zamorian Girl.  Among the Hyrkanians Conan mastered the basic arts of nomadic warfare. The Hyperboreans and their stone walls proved too tough for the Hyrkanians. They eventually formed an alliance of convenience with the scattered pastoral tribes of non-Hyrkanian origin to the north-west of the Vilayet Sea. This alliance proves fruitful. Conan and his Hyrkanian friend grow more and more daring with each raid, yielding particularly rich pickings from caravans bound to and from Turan. This brings the heterogeneous horde in direct conflict with their powerful southern neighbor; the Empire of Turan.

The Hyrkanian became envious of the relationship developing between Conan and the Zamorian beauty. The Hyrkanian tribesman were disgruntled and lacked the enthusiasm for a confrontation with their Turanian brothers. So, the Hyrkanian betrayed Conan and his comrades by forming a secret alliance with the Turanians. The Hyrkanian led his men into an ambush with all non-Hyrkanians put to the sword by their former Hyrkanian allies and the Turanians.
Obviously Conan will escape the massacre (possibly with the girl?).

These events could possibly explain how Conan gained his archery skills and the reason for his hostility towards the Hyrkanians and the Turanian Empire.  
Maybe, the beautiful Zamorian girl spoke of exotic cities in Zamora, one particular city with a shining jewel-encrusted Tower of the Elephant? 


  

[lordyam]

Nov 13, 2017 16:33:11 GMT -5 @hunnu said:

I think there is potential for an even earlier experience with the Hyrkanians - between The Frost-Giant's Daughter and The God in the Bowl.

In his letter to P. Schuyler Miller REH explains the following:

There was the space of about a year between Vanarium and his entrance into the thief-city of Zamora. During this time he returned to the northern territories of his tribe, and made his first journey beyond the boundaries of Cimmeria. This, strange to say, was north instead of south. Why or how, I am not certain, but he spent some months among a tribe of the Aesir, fighting with the Vanir and the Hyperboreans, and developing a hate for the latter which lasted all his life and later affected his policies as king of Aquilonia. Captured by them, he escaped southward and came into Zamora in time to make his debut in print. p.360, Conan of Cimmeria, Vol.3. 

In the Hyborian Age essay, the Hyrkanian tribes attack the eastern border of the Hyperboreans from the north end of the Vilayet Sea. These northern campaigns were not as successful as the southern attack of the Hyrkanians, where they established the Turanian Empire.

Over the years the Hyperboreans mixed with the captured northern Hyrkanians, Aesir and Zamorians - it is possible that Conan befriended a Hyrkanian prisoner during his capture. 

Now the Lemurians enter history again as Hyrkanians. Through the centuries they have pushed steadily westward, and now a tribe skirts the southern end of the great inland sea - Vilayet - and establishes the kingdom of Turan on the southwestern shore. Between the inland sea and the eastern borders of the native kingdoms lie vast expanses of steppes and in the extreme north and extreme south, deserts. The non-Hyrkanian dwellers of these territories are scattered and pastoral, unclassified in the north, Shemitish in the south, aboriginal, with a thin strain of Hyborian blood from wandering conquerors. Toward the latter part of the period other Hyrkanian clans push westward, around the northern extremity of the inland sea, and clash with the eastern outposts of the Hyperboreans. p.386, Conan of Cimmeria, Vol.1


The ancient kingdom of Hyperborea is more aloof than the others, yet there is alien blood in plenty in its veins, from the capture of foreign women - Hyrkanians, Aesir and Zamorians. p.386, Conan of Cimmeria, Vol.1

Anyway, here's one possibility.

Conan escaped with a Zamoran slave-girl and a Hyrkanian.

The Hyrkanian rejoined his kinsmen with Conan and the Zamorian Girl.  Among the Hyrkanians Conan mastered the basic arts of nomadic warfare. The Hyperboreans and their stone walls proved too tough for the Hyrkanians. They eventually formed an alliance of convenience with the scattered pastoral tribes of non-Hyrkanian origin to the north-west of the Vilayet Sea. This alliance proves fruitful. Conan and his Hyrkanian friend grow more and more daring with each raid, yielding particularly rich pickings from caravans bound to and from Turan. This brings the heterogeneous horde in direct conflict with their powerful southern neighbor; the Empire of Turan.

The Hyrkanian became envious of the relationship developing between Conan and the Zamorian beauty. The Hyrkanian tribesman were disgruntled and lacked the enthusiasm for a confrontation with their Turanian brothers. So, the Hyrkanian betrayed Conan and his comrades by forming a secret alliance with the Turanians. The Hyrkanian led his men into an ambush with all non-Hyrkanians put to the sword by their former Hyrkanian allies and the Turanians.
Obviously Conan will escape the massacre (possibly with the girl?).

These events could possibly explain how Conan gained his archery skills and the reason for his hostility towards the Hyrkanians and the Turanian Empire.  
Maybe, the beautiful Zamorian girl spoke of exotic cities in Zamora, one particular city with a shining jewel-encrusted Tower of the Elephant? 


  

I had exactly that idea. The idea was that Conan would have met a Hyrkanian while a captive; they'd hit it off and the guy (who's a much older man) would teach Conan something about other languages. Eventually they try to do a mass jailbreak; the hyrkanian dies ensuring Conan and the Aesir get away, and Conan can only watch in horror as the man is gutted like a fish. This is why he despises Hyperboreans.

And DH had Conan's first lover be a Hyrkanian woman (and her death similarly haunts Conan for a long time)