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Post by kullagain on Feb 11, 2016 0:22:25 GMT -5
I didn't want to write a comprehensive post on this just yet but I see so many instances where if a fiction features a maddening entity, a cosmic being or even just a tentacle, then its ALWAYS popularly attributed to Lovecraft.
Furthermore, apart from these instances, there are so many fictions where I feel I see a Howardian story or slant, yet it's barely noticed as such. I'm unsure if this is due to the fiction and Howard drawing on ancient sources, or if it's due to Howard's lack of mainstream popularity as an author.
I wanted to ask all of you where you think REH's influence has been missed by the masses and how it feeds certain fictions.
Personally, I see the following as some examples:
Predator--Reminds me A LOT of Valley of The Worm. A main character who embodies primal prowess, and whose tribe is wiped out by an alien being that symbolises a sinister undercurrent of humanity's nature. Then, this main character harnesses all his cunning and noble savagery to prepare for and beckon this ominous presence to a vengeful, epic showdown. Max Landis even pitched a Predator-inspired Alien prequel that sounds even more like it!
They Live and Icke's reptilian belief: Obviously The Shadow Kingdom. Serpent men and their glamour. Ka Nama kaa lajerama to identify them. Nuff said.
Bloodborne--Solomon Kane simulator. Were there even any Lovecraft stories with a puritan backdrop?
Hellboy comic--Mike Mignola has noted how many fans think he's only inspired by Lovecraft, even though he claims Howard has been a bigger influence, especially in the episodic, short story nature of his comics (he might have mentioned Moorcock also).
I wanted to bring up Indiana Jones but I feel as though this draws from a source common to the Conan the Thief stories.
Thoughts?
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Post by zarono on Feb 11, 2016 8:08:36 GMT -5
I think there is a definite howardian influence in pop culture but it's likely a second or third generation thing, with various authors and screenwriters being influenced by REH in the 30's through the 80's and then later authors and screenwriters being influenced by them without encountering REH's work first hand or just in a limited way. The same goes with Lovecraft but Lovecraft probably gets more credit because his influence is more easily definable because of certain creatures and themes, to the extent that his name has become an adjective, "lovecraftian". Bear in mind that a good portion of REH's work is strongly influenced by Lovecraft's mythos so he's included in the "Lovecraft Circle" that influenced many later writers to varying degrees. However REH's work has always stood out from some of the other members of the Lovecraft Circle because he used the lovecraftian ideas to enhance his own style instead of simply copying Lovecraft as many others did. Anyway here's my take on some of the movies you mention that I'm familiar with; An REH influence on Indiana Jones? It's possible, the strong supernatural element of Raiders sets it apart from other adventure stories. REH's "The Fire of Ashurbanipal" is a straight adventure tale that goes in a strong supernatural direction in the end similar to Raiders. They Live? Maybe but certainly not definite. David Icke's theories? Yep sounds to me like he read The Shadow Kingdom or at least some Kull comics  Predator? Possible VotW influence, the story was readily available at that time in anthologies. |
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Post by Char-Vell on Feb 11, 2016 9:01:46 GMT -5
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Post by zarono on Feb 11, 2016 10:18:02 GMT -5
Right on, the latest Rambo had that howardian essence the S&S movies always seem to miss. |
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Post by themirrorthief on Feb 11, 2016 14:53:30 GMT -5
Solomon Kane led to the creation of an entire type of character...the influence is something I see all the time, and with Conan it is even more so. NO question that Howard and Tolkein are the two greatest fantasy writers and most influential by far from what I have seen. Burroughs and Moorcock are a couple more I would throw in there regarding the fathers of modern fantasy. IMO Lovecraft was a horror writer first and foremost and delved into fantasy to flesh out his horrific monstrosities
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Post by samarobrin on Feb 11, 2016 15:26:02 GMT -5
Same answer I always give. It's the one that applies to me personally, and keeps coming up when I speak to others--and having owned a comic shop and worked for four others, attended dozens of sci-fi conventions, and worked in publishing, I've talked to a lot of others! It's the lack of availability of Howard's work, and the way it almost seems to be deliberately kept from getting out to the public. I can't believe some well-promoted mass-market editions wouldn't succeed, both financially and in terms of further promotion.
Part of it is the collector mentality, toward which most Howard works are currently aimed. Yet even then, the people most likely to want such frippery tend not to be aware of it.
I'd love to see Howard's light get out from under that bushel--so I'll probably be giving that same answer a whole lot more!
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Post by kullagain on Feb 11, 2016 15:59:42 GMT -5
I think there is a definite howardian influence in pop culture but it's likely a second or third generation thing, with various authors and screenwriters being influenced by REH in the 30's through the 80's and then later authors and screenwriters being influenced by them without encountering REH's work first hand or just in a limited way. The same goes with Lovecraft but Lovecraft probably gets more credit because his influence is more easily definable because of certain creatures and themes, to the extent that his name has become an adjective, "lovecraftian". Bear in mind that a good portion of REH's work is strongly influenced by Lovecraft's mythos so he's included in the "Lovecraft Circle" that influenced many later writers to varying degrees. However REH's work has always stood out from some of the other members of the Lovecraft Circle because he used the lovecraftian ideas to enhance his own style instead of simply copying Lovecraft as many others did. Yea I remember on the Cromcast Mark Finn and Jeffrey Shanks (and I think Rusty Burke too) talking about how pulp writers directly influenced the genesis of comics in North America at the time. Coupling that with your explanation here, it's really quite likely that modern fiction was influenced directly by Howard-inspired comics (for example) and the similarities still trickle through. I also think your advocation about Lovecraft's influence on Howard and his circle coupled with Char-Vell's related statement does convince me more of how Lovecraft does indeed deserve a lot of credit he gets for influence. Still, Howard at least (I want to add Smith but not as familiar with his stories) befits more attribution of influence than he gets. He derived from Lovecraft sure, but I felt he added a lot of unique nuance and voice to his fiction that we still see today, as you alluded to. |
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Post by kullagain on Feb 11, 2016 16:05:06 GMT -5
Solomon Kane led to the creation of an entire type of character...the influence is something I see all the time, and with Conan it is even more so. NO question that Howard and Tolkein are the two greatest fantasy writers and most influential by far from what I have seen. Burroughs and Moorcock are a couple more I would throw in there regarding the fathers of modern fantasy. IMO Lovecraft was a horror writer first and foremost and delved into fantasy to flesh out his horrific monstrosities Idk if it's just my blind ascription but I feel as though Vampire Hunter D shares some similiarity to the character, at least in his character design. I also saw posted on the international REH fb group that sleepy hollow season 2 features a character named Solomon Kent, lol. |
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Post by zarono on Feb 11, 2016 19:33:14 GMT -5
I think there is a definite howardian influence in pop culture but it's likely a second or third generation thing, with various authors and screenwriters being influenced by REH in the 30's through the 80's and then later authors and screenwriters being influenced by them without encountering REH's work first hand or just in a limited way. The same goes with Lovecraft but Lovecraft probably gets more credit because his influence is more easily definable because of certain creatures and themes, to the extent that his name has become an adjective, "lovecraftian". Bear in mind that a good portion of REH's work is strongly influenced by Lovecraft's mythos so he's included in the "Lovecraft Circle" that influenced many later writers to varying degrees. However REH's work has always stood out from some of the other members of the Lovecraft Circle because he used the lovecraftian ideas to enhance his own style instead of simply copying Lovecraft as many others did. Yea I remember on the Cromcast Mark Finn and Jeffrey Shanks (and I think Rusty Burke too) talking about how pulp writers directly influenced the genesis of comics in North America at the time. Coupling that with your explanation here, it's really quite likely that modern fiction was influenced directly by Howard-inspired comics (for example) and the similarities still trickle through. I also think your advocation about Lovecraft's influence on Howard and his circle coupled with Char-Vell's related statement does convince me more of how Lovecraft does indeed deserve a lot of credit he gets for influence. Still, Howard at least (I want to add Smith but not as familiar with his stories) befits more attribution of influence than he gets. He derived from Lovecraft sure, but I felt he added a lot of unique nuance and voice to his fiction that we still see today, as you alluded to. REH definitely deserves far more credit than he gets, not only as one of the founding fathers of Cthulhu Mythos genre fiction but as the father of sword and sorcery fantasy. I think most of it has to do with changing tastes in the fantasy genre, in the 70's and 80's sword and sorcery was very popular and REH's work got plenty of attention and acknowledgement (it was a lot easier to find REH than Lovecraft on the paperback spinners in those days) but over time epic/high fantasy has become the more popular stye and so REH's work gets less attention. Maybe things will change over time and there will be shift back to more S&S. But Lovecraft always gets lots of credit because his ideas have become pervasive in horror, fantasy, and scifi and his influence turns up no matter what subgenre is currently popular. |
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Post by deuce on Feb 11, 2016 20:00:44 GMT -5
I didn't want to write a comprehensive post on this just yet but I see so many instances where if a fiction features a maddening entity, a cosmic being or even just a tentacle, then its ALWAYS popularly attributed to Lovecraft. Well, other than A. Merritt (such as The People of the Pit), HPL pretty much brought tentacles to horror. I've been saying for years that REH wasn't all that great at coming up with his own gods/demons/monsters. You can't be great at everything. Anyway, Howard kinda farmed such stuff out to HPL and Clark Ashton Smith. Pretty much all of his "cosmic" monsters from The Black Stone to Thaug are derived from Smith's Tsathoggua with a little of the Dunwich Horror thrown in. You also have shoggoth-types like the Worm and the "horror" in Almuric. OTOH, Howard basically founded the entire "Weird Western" sub-genre, including the "Lovecraftian Western" variation with yarns like The Valley of the Lost and The Horror from the Mound. Joe R. Lansdale will tell you all day long (and I've heard 'im do it) that REH is who pushed him in that direction. New guys like TE Grau will say the same thing. They Live is a possibility. Carpernter is an avowed HPL, CAS and Brackett fan, so he might read REH as well. Merritt and Burroughs both came out with beings similar to the Serpies not long after Howard. Icke and most other repto-nuts actually do cite TSK as the beginning of the concept "in public". HPL and CAS both wrote more stories mentioning the Serpies than Howard ever did, BTW. Well, there were several Lovecraft tales with Puritan New England as the historical background. Sometimes there were detailed flashbacks. There have been quite a few fictional characters that were possibly influenced by SK. Not all, necessarily. The "witch hunter" thing is historical to 17th century Britain and the models are there. Like I've said before, SK really wasn't a "witch hunter". In fact, he was buddies with a witch- doctor. |
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Post by spiderlime on Feb 12, 2016 14:25:07 GMT -5
there's a detailed post on solomon kane's adaptations into other characters on the old forum. i think it's a good time to suggest that the archives of the old forum will be integrated into this one, for convenience and continuity.
as for the question itself: to me it always seemed divided into tow parts: 1: howard, lovecraft and ashton-smith, as the three fathers of the sword and sorcery sub-genre, are still out of the fantasy genre's mainstrim as a whole. they're entrance into it wes stemmed in the late 1980's as more tolkien-inspired fantasy was rediscovered. the three founders of sword-and-sorcery are still the province of specialists, as i like to call them, who share an understanding of these author's style, inspirationes, motifs, etc. paradoxically this is true even when film and comics did something to make them more widely known.
2: acknowledgement of predecessors and their contribution to your work is a matter of personal ethics. it would be a much more decent world to live in if people were more accustomed to saying to whom they owe the roots of their work. but sadly this is'nt the case.
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Post by kullagain on Feb 17, 2016 14:49:52 GMT -5
OTOH, Howard basically founded the entire "Weird Western" sub-genre, including the "Lovecraftian Western" variation with yarns like The Valley of the Lost and The Horror from the Mound. Joe R. Lansdale will tell you all day long (and I've heard 'im do it) that REH is who pushed him in that direction. New guys like TE Grau will say the same thing. .... There have been quite a few fictional characters that were possibly influenced by SK. Not all, necessarily. The "witch hunter" thing is historical to 17th century Britain and the models are there. Like I've said before, SK really wasn't a "witch hunter". In fact, he was buddies with a witch- doctor. Sorry for the late reply, an thanks for all the info.  For the weird western, do you think that Jonah Hex was a trickle of this? As for SK, I know spiderlime mentioned the old threads on conan.com, but since they are locked for now, who are some characters that show a definite influence? |
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Post by kullagain on Feb 17, 2016 14:58:33 GMT -5
as for the question itself: to me it always seemed divided into tow parts: 1: howard, lovecraft and ashton-smith, as the three fathers of the sword and sorcery sub-genre, are still out of the fantasy genre's mainstrim as a whole. they're entrance into it wes stemmed in the late 1980's as more tolkien-inspired fantasy was rediscovered. the three founders of sword-and-sorcery are still the province of specialists, as i like to call them, who share an understanding of these author's style, inspirationes, motifs, etc. paradoxically this is true even when film and comics did something to make them more widely known. 2: acknowledgement of predecessors and their contribution to your work is a matter of personal ethics. it would be a much more decent world to live in if people were more accustomed to saying to whom they owe the roots of their work. but sadly this is'nt the case. Sound observation about the emergence of Tolkienesque fantasy. I think that since the this brand of fantasy is more easily agreeable for most, bigger companies in several media recognized its commercial viability. Obviously Star wars and even Indiana Jones augmented this effect. The second observation was one I never really considered, I guess by my persistent, sub-conscious naivety in expecting most people to be ethically inclined. ;/ But yes this most likely plays a factor since fragile ego can run rampant even in those with talent. lol lame. |
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Post by deuce on Feb 17, 2016 22:22:02 GMT -5
For the weird western, do you think that Jonah Hex was a trickle of this? I guess it's possible. There is no mention of REH in any of the accounts about JH's creation. Nor does Jonah much resemble any of REH's Western heroes. However, via Lansdale and Truman, some Howardian dna definitely got into JH during the '90s. Anciano (of Wandering Star) was shopping around his Solomon Kane movie by the late '90s. I'd say that Van Helsing's look and premise appears very suspicious in that context. We know the "Elias Hooke" character was created with SK in mind. Gemmell, being a huge REH, almost certainly created his Jon Shannow character as a sort of homage. |
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Post by deuce on Feb 23, 2016 7:35:17 GMT -5
I didn't want to write a comprehensive post on this just yet but I see so many instances where if a fiction features a maddening entity, a cosmic being or even just a tentacle, then its ALWAYS popularly attributed to Lovecraft. I wanted to ask all of you where you think REH's influence has been missed by the masses and how it feeds certain fictions. Thoughts? This is sort of the opposite... Charles Stross has a successful series starring "Bob Howard", sort of a British Fox Mulder. You can find numerous speculations from numerous people that the name, at least, is an homage to REH. It's just assumed across the board. However, I cannot find a single comment from Stross about it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Stross |
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