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Post by kemp on Jun 1, 2020 23:46:27 GMT -5
Deuce, I have scoured the web for that particular one, but can't seem to find any online links in relation to it, although I have found information aplenty elsewhere in regards to REH's other quotes on the subject of barbarism and civilisation. I thought I would ask you as I knew if anyone could find it it would be you, any idea where I might look, any possible links ? Hey Kemp. I found it as cited in the Collected Letters. It was written to Clyde Smith, believed to be December 5, 1930. Here is a bit more of the quote to give some context to what Howard was speaking to, particularly the issues on the horizon with WWII. "Great events are shaping themselves in the east. If any man is left to write the history of these times, he will have horrific tales to tell. People under-rate Russia. The potentialities of world-conquest lie in the minds and calloused hands of those mujiks. The whole world is quaking and rocking, and an undercurrent of insanity is bubbling and seething beneath the surface. Every time the wind blows out of the east I smell the reek of war in it. Nothing is stable now; we live in the midst of the Age of Change. International convulsions and gigantic upheavals are hovering in the very air of the world. The richest countries in the world writhe in starvation while the rich folk go blindly to their own doom, like swine who are unaware that the muck they tread on is alive with waking serpents. The wings of Melek Taus hover over the world, the winds whisper of revolt, anarchy, war and red ruin for all the sons of men. "Already Mussolini's feet are unsteady in Italy and last night France was without a government. In Scotland ninety thousand men go out on a strike, and social unreast spreads over the British Isles. In Russia men on trial for treason fling accusations at the powers of the world. And Italy is accused of forming secret alliances with Bulgaria, Turkey, Austria and Germany to overthrow the conditions imposed on them by defeat in the last war. Well, let the nations cut each other's throats, and let war sweep the planet clean. When its done we can all lie down in the grateful sleep of everlasting oblivion and the clean winds and the seas will erase from the poor old world the scars of mankind's existence." I hope that is what you were aiming for. Let me know if you need anything else. Thanks linefacedscrivener, this is exactly what I was after. I wanted to understand the context in which REH was referring to when he wrote that passage, seemed there was more to it and the above answers it for me. Cheers.
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Post by kemp on Nov 6, 2021 6:19:13 GMT -5
It's difficult to know exactly what REH would have thought about the political and social movements of our time, but we are perhaps given some clues in his writings and letters to H P Lovecraft in the 1930's. In many ways REH's viewpoints on freedom, liberty and opportunity are quintessentially and traditionally American, they echo the viewpoints of the nations founding fathers who existed long before the world was faced with Hitler, Stalin and our contemporary brand of cancel culture. For instance what we now call Globalism and the idea that there are hostile and power hungry forces at work behind the actions of governments. 'Howard seemed to view Fascism as a front for international banks and corporations:' “As for war, that will come when international capital is ready. I do not believe, and have never believed, that Mussolini, Hitler and the other European strong-arm, he-man dictators are anything but figure-heads and tools for international capitalism. The same crowd that recently approached Smedley Butler with a proposition to overthrow the government and set up a Fascist dictatorship” REH Howard's writings indicate did he hated fascism, the suppression of free speech and with an understanding that fascism stifled creativity. “You seem to take it for granted that Fascism would guarantee absolute freedom of thought and mental research. I wonder if this faith is justified. I don’t notice any hilarious renaissance emanating from Germany or Italy or Austria resulting from the exhilarating freedom of dictatorship. It had always seemed to me, erroneously perhaps, that suppression of speech and thought generally accompanied dictatorship.” “You accuse me of ‘hating human development’ because I mistrust Fascism. Well, there can’t be much tolerance about a system whose advocates denounce as ‘enemies of humanity’ anyone who disagrees with them. According to that, you consider as ‘enemies of humanity’ every man and woman in the world who is not a Fascist. I do not condemn the reforms you say would be possible under Fascism.” REH www.castaliahouse.com/robert-e-howard-and-the-third-reich/
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Post by kemp on Nov 6, 2021 6:26:35 GMT -5
Howard seemed to understood that any political movement that crushed individual liberty was, by its very nature, retrogressive and despotic. “I simply do not believe they would exist under a Fascist government. Of course you can draw glowing pictures of a Fascist Utopia. But you can not prove that Fascism is anything but a sordid, retrogressive despotism, which crushes the individual liberty and strangles the intellectual life of every country it inflicts with its slimy presence…And Fascism is nothing but a new fad-name for industrial tyranny. It’s the final step of entrenched special privilege-holders, which would peon the people beneath them beyond all hope.” 'You can’t remake a people without the threat of the iron fist. He laughed at Lovecraft’s attempts to come up with a compassionate, kinder, gentler Fascism:' “You say that the type of Fascism you advocate is without despotism and persecution of intellectual freedom; you might as well say you advocate a cobra without its venom, a skunk without its stench, or a leper without his scabs.” REH 'Howard knew bad things were coming in the next few years and it was not going to be pretty. It all fed back into his view of rise, decay, fall, and regeneration, repeat: “You are right economics will have to revolutionized entirely if the nation is to continue, and the choice seems to lie between fascism and communism – both of which I utterly detest. And doubtless the world will eventually, as you say, sink back into barbarism – if any humans are left alive after the next war. And since the inevitable goal of all civilization seems to be decadence, it seems hardly worth while to struggle up the long road from barbarism in the first place.” REH REH hated fascism and communism, even though he knew that these systems would ultimately play out to some strong degree. Given the options, it would be better for civilisation to sink back into the chaos of barbarism than to embrace totalitarianism. It seems of relevance to me, and I think that in the same way those who upheld individual liberties and freedoms in the twentieth century vanquished the Eugenicists, Nazis and Communists of their era, we will also need to defeat the same fascists ( rebranded in a new wrapping ) of this century. www.castaliahouse.com/robert-e-howard-and-the-third-reich/Further reading and sources www.thedarkmanjournal.org/the-pavilion-blog/robert-e-howard-the-german-presidential-election-of-1932-and-the-level-headed-statesmanisi.org/modern-age/the-dark-virtues-of-robert-e-howard/
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Post by kemp on Jun 17, 2022 19:18:38 GMT -5
"My tastes and habits are simple; I am neither erudite nor sophisticated. I prefer jazz to classical music, musical burlesques to Greek tragedy, A. Conan Doyle to Balzac, Bob Service’s verse to Santayana’s writing, a prize fight to a lecture on art. I read the wood pulp magazines and enjoy them. I laugh uproariously at slap stick comedy in the movies. I respect men’s religion whether I believe in it or not. I am a 100% American and damned proud of it."
-- Robert E. Howard to H. P. Lovecraft July, 1933 This is another aspect of Robert E Howard, the fact that he was proud of being an American, in his works his protagonists seemed to exemplify the aspects of the freedom loving American, even if said heroes were set in pre cataclysmic civilisations. The US seems to be the first country whose founders studied the world history of tyrannical and dictatorial abuse and designed a template of society that could hopefully reduce the chance of a dictatorship, and of course provided documents that hopefully ensure that freedom, something many have lost sight of. 'If people let government decide which foods they eat and which medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny.' Thomas Jefferson Tyranny always goes as far as you allow it. That's what American exceptionalism is. There are threads on Vikings, Huns, Celts and Slavs on this forum, but I'm surprised there isn't one on the American nation and it's history, the American founders, especially since the American concepts of freedom and the individual figure strongly with REH.
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Post by mingerganthecat on Jun 22, 2022 12:31:06 GMT -5
This is another aspect of Robert E Howard, the fact that he was proud of being an American, in his works his protagonists seemed to exemplify the aspects of the freedom loving American, even if said heroes were set in pre cataclysmic civilisations. The US seems to be the first country whose founders studied the world history of tyrannical and dictatorial abuse and designed a template of society that could hopefully reduce the chance of a dictatorship, and of course provided documents that hopefully ensure that freedom, something many have lost sight of. 'If people let government decide which foods they eat and which medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny.' Thomas Jefferson Tyranny always goes as far as you allow it. That's what American exceptionalism is. There are threads on Vikings, Huns, Celts and Slavs on this forum, but I'm surprised there isn't one on the American nation and it's history, the American founders, especially since the American concepts of freedom and the individual figure strongly with REH. I'm surprised that fewer people pick up on this. His stuff with the Picts are almost westerns or pioneer stories but with longbows instead of muskets or six-guns. And his take on religion is even more American. I think one reason I notice is because I'm an American who spent much of my adult life living in Europe... Anyway, I made a comment on reddit about how there's no real structure or hierarchy or institutional weight behind the Priesthood of Mitra, not at all like the powerful institutions of the historical Catholic or Orthodox churches. It's just a loose collection of priests and their parishioners, less like anything that existed in the middle ages and more like the American Congregationalism of REH's 1930's. Crom-worship, in contrast, is less historical paganism and more 1930's American Deism set in the Viking age.
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Post by kemp on Jun 23, 2022 2:42:09 GMT -5
This is another aspect of Robert E Howard, the fact that he was proud of being an American, in his works his protagonists seemed to exemplify the aspects of the freedom loving American, even if said heroes were set in pre cataclysmic civilisations. The US seems to be the first country whose founders studied the world history of tyrannical and dictatorial abuse and designed a template of society that could hopefully reduce the chance of a dictatorship, and of course provided documents that hopefully ensure that freedom, something many have lost sight of. 'If people let government decide which foods they eat and which medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny.' Thomas Jefferson Tyranny always goes as far as you allow it. That's what American exceptionalism is. There are threads on Vikings, Huns, Celts and Slavs on this forum, but I'm surprised there isn't one on the American nation and it's history, the American founders, especially since the American concepts of freedom and the individual figure strongly with REH. I'm surprised that fewer people pick up on this. His stuff with the Picts are almost westerns or pioneer stories but with longbows instead of muskets or six-guns. And his take on religion is even more American. I think one reason I notice is because I'm an American who spent much of my adult life living in Europe... Anyway, I made a comment on reddit about how there's no real structure or hierarchy or institutional weight behind the Priesthood of Mitra, not at all like the powerful institutions of the historical Catholic or Orthodox churches. It's just a loose collection of priests and their parishioners, less like anything that existed in the middle ages and more like the American Congregationalism of REH's 1930's. Crom-worship, in contrast, is less historical paganism and more 1930's American Deism set in the Viking age. Interesting what you say about Crom worship, that it has something in common with the deist belief in a supreme being that does not intervene in the universe. I can see the connection of course with traditional American Deism. REH did not seem to be in favour of institutionalised religion. To quote from a letter to H.P. Lovecraft, received 22 September 1932: 'I noted with interest your comments regarding the supernatural, etc., and am not equipped to dispute any point of your theories. I never gave a name to my views – or lack of views – but I guess an Agnostic is what I am, if that means skepticism regarding all human gropings. Perhaps the main reason that I dislike to take a firm stand in any direction, is because of the respect I have for my father’s intelligence. He is not by any means convinced that there is nothing in the matters mentioned. He is far better educated than I, and has more natural sense than I’ll ever have. Scientist? He is a practical scientist is ever lived one. For more than thirty years he has been applying science in his daily life. There is no better physician in the state of Texas, though there are many who have made more of a financial success.' I never saw REH as a particularly religious fellow, This line from Queen of the Black Coast' “I have known many gods. He who denies them is blind as he who trusts them too deeply.” Very Howard I think.
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Post by kemp on Jun 23, 2022 2:53:38 GMT -5
The U.S. Constitution makes a seperation of church and state, that it does not recognise an overriding formal organised religion, and at the same time allowing for freedom of religion. Much of that comes from the fact that the settlers to the US came from different denominations that in some cases faced persecution in Europe by the more organised state churches.
The first amendment to the US Constitution states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
It occurs to me that the more I look into traditional American views on individual liberty and freedom of expression the more I am convinced that this tradition had some profound obvious influence on REH's writings. In this regard Conan, Solomon Kane and REH's other creations such as Esau Cairn exemplify these aspects of the free frontier American, similar to watching a John Wayne western.
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Post by johnnypt on Jun 23, 2022 7:17:28 GMT -5
The U.S. Constitution makes a seperation of church and state, that it does not recognise an overriding formal organised religion, and at the same time allowing for freedom of religion. Much of that comes from the fact that the settlers to the US came from different denominations that in some cases faced persecution in Europe by the more organised state churches. The first amendment to the US Constitution states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." It occurs to me that the more I look into traditional American views on individual liberty and freedom of expression the more I am convinced that this tradition had some profound obvious influence on REH's writings. In this regard Conan, Solomon Kane and REH's other creations such as Esau Cairn exemplify these aspects of the free frontier American, similar to watching a John Wayne western. You do have to be careful using the "separation of church and state" phrase. As you noted, it's not actually in the Constitution's First Amendment, but taken from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists in 1802 or 1803. It's functionally what the amendment proscribes, but it's been used to enforce a public ban on religion in certain aspects. It does seem to be swinging back the other way ever so slightly. The key thing is the federal government cannot create or make anyone conform to one and cannot prevent anyone from worshipping as they wish (some states at the time, like Maryland and Rhode Island, actually could and did but that changed in a short time). But the overall direction of freedom and liberty, and how they were being eaten away at, is definitely a main aspect of Howard's writing.
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Post by kemp on Jun 23, 2022 23:30:39 GMT -5
You do have to be careful using the "separation of church and state" phrase. As you noted, it's not actually in the Constitution's First Amendment, but taken from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists in 1802 or 1803. It's functionally what the amendment proscribes, but it's been used to enforce a public ban on religion in certain aspects. It does seem to be swinging back the other way ever so slightly. The key thing is the federal government cannot create or make anyone conform to one and cannot prevent anyone from worshipping as they wish (some states at the time, like Maryland and Rhode Island, actually could and did but that changed in a short time).But the overall direction of freedom and liberty, and how they were being eaten away at, is definitely a main aspect of Howard's writing.The First Amendment in full. 'First Amendment Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.' constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-1/What stands out for me is the right of the individual to worship or not worship as they please, or freedom to say what you want without being cancelled. True, over the course of time these rights have been attacked or reinterprated, always an ongoing battle to keep things in sync, that 'Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty' quote comes to mind. I don't think Howard was fundamentally a religious individual, not from what I have read of his personal opinions/quotes, but he did not scoff at religion at the same time. I think that stood out for me. Of course he did have a spiritual side “I think the real reason so many youngsters are clamoring for freedom of some vague sort, is because of unrest and dissatisfaction with present conditions; I don't believe this machine age gives full satisfaction in a spiritual way, if the term may be allowed. ” REH
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Post by kemp on Jun 23, 2022 23:44:02 GMT -5
Individualism is always present in REH's writing.
I like this one.
“In the old free days all I wanted was a sharp sword and a straight path to my enemies. Now no paths are straight and my sword is useless.”
Robert E. Howard, Conan: The Barbarian complete collection
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