|
Post by irondavith on Dec 8, 2022 4:28:17 GMT -5
Thanks for the answers and quick replies guys! This forum is a wealth of info and help. Sorry for my own tardy response, things are getting a bit hectic here before Christmas 😅
|
|
|
Post by johnnypt on Dec 8, 2022 6:38:32 GMT -5
I know the feeling, I’ve had to change plans a coye of times already for both of my podcasts. Part 2 is still on track, the next episodes have been jumbled a bit.
|
|
|
Post by johnnypt on Dec 16, 2022 10:02:14 GMT -5
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2022 23:22:29 GMT -5
Thanks John, that was a fantastic podcast. By Crom and Tengri, in my Hunnic eyes, this episode or perhaps once the Conan Chronology series is completed, deserves a nomination for the Robert E. Howard Foundation Awards. Please publish a video version of this podcast.
|
|
|
Post by johnnypt on Dec 17, 2022 9:25:05 GMT -5
Thanks, I just figured out where the download function is in Anchor, I'll set about doing it over the holidays.
|
|
|
Post by irondavith on Dec 17, 2022 13:07:40 GMT -5
Nice one, I saw it pop up on my podcasts yesterday. Will listen in the next day or so, cheers!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2022 13:53:44 GMT -5
Thanks, I just figured out where the download function is in Anchor, I'll set about doing it over the holidays. I know it can be a lot of work getting a video together - if you do not know anyone, hopefully someone on the forum can help you. You have an uncanny knack to discern the relevant source material and present it in a clear and concise manner with your own kind of humour that I can appreciate. This is the kinda stuff Conan (including potential) fans should be listening to.
|
|
|
Post by johnnypt on Dec 17, 2022 14:08:00 GMT -5
Thanks, I just figured out where the download function is in Anchor, I'll set about doing it over the holidays. I know it can be a lot of work getting a video together - if you do not know anyone, hopefully someone on the forum can help you. You have an uncanny knack to discern the relevant source material and present it in a clear and concise manner with your own kind of humour that I can appreciate. This is the kinda stuff Conan (including potential) fans should be listening to. My old Apple basically died with all my editing software, though I have it backed up and some time next year will get an updated model. In the meantime I have to cobble things together using free stuff on the web. Thanks again of ther kind words
|
|
|
Post by Reaver on Feb 17, 2023 18:17:48 GMT -5
Good to see this thread active again and hear John's podcast.
I think the chronology can be pretty reliably constructed, though my own conclusions about the mid chronology are slightly different. I don't give great weight to whether Conan had a cloak or helmet, as these things come and go. Story clues, geographic logic and character progression count significantly. I have a few significant differences and suppositions.
Overall I find the chronology falls into four "blocks," which tend to have some thematic and geographic consistency among them: Youth & early adventures in Hyboria Journey to the South Sojourn in the East Return to the West/The Road of Kings
As Christopher Tolkien wrote on editing The Silmarillion, perfect consistency is not to be looked for, and if desired could only come at great cost.
|
|
|
Post by johnnypt on Feb 17, 2023 18:54:43 GMT -5
There's a lot of play in there, but those basic blocks generally work out that way.
The main thing I've been noticing going over the stories again to try and find the clues is Howard really did put a LOT of info in each story. He may not have laid out a specific chronology or even wanted to, but he sure had a good idea what happened before each one. The Phoenix and Red Nails drafts are also key to sorting things out.
But that early run from Phoenix through Xuthal (and maybe out to Rogues), you can clearly see the next story popping up out of the previous one. The only one in that era I didn't really find a specific antecedent was Pool of the Black One. He just came up with some different ideas about how pirates in the north would be compared to the ones in the south. I'd have to see what else he was working on at the time.
You can definitely shuffle pieces around a bit and still have it tell a coherent story, there are a number of ways they can fit together. The beginning and end are pretty set, but the middle can have some moves that would work.
|
|
|
Post by Reaver on Feb 17, 2023 20:22:31 GMT -5
Thanks. Yes, there are a few clues and information within the stories, which helps greatly- the brief chronology Conan gives of his still young career in Queen of the Black Coast, and mention of previous adventures such as Xuthal, in the Devil in Iron. My timeline for Early Adventures in Hyboria is pretty much in the consensus; all of these show Conan to be young and independent- a thief, rogue, or mercenary. In this version, I include the Hall of the Dead (fragment), which introduces the sidekick Nestor who has been hanged at the beginning of "Rogues".
Frost Giant's Daughter/Gods of the North. The God in the Bowl Tower of the Elephant (Hall of the Dead) Rogues in the House
After the events in Rogues, Conan makes one of his periodic returns north to Cimmeria, as Howard says, but finds little to his liking and therefore resumes his wanderings as a mercenary soldier in (fragment) The Hand of Nergal. Though mainly a pastiche, "Nergal" is an important grain in the chronology as it continues Conan's life of mercenary soldiering, introduces the bowmanship of the Hyrkanians, and even we guess his first familiarity with the Kozaks of later adventures. This next stage of Conan's career may be summarized as the Journey to the South.
|
|
|
Post by johnnypt on Feb 17, 2023 20:46:32 GMT -5
Thanks. Yes, there are a few clues and information within the stories, which helps greatly- the brief chronology Conan gives of his still young career in Queen of the Black Coast, and mention of previous adventures such as Xuthal, in the Devil in Iron. My timeline for Early Adventures in Hyboria is pretty much in the consensus; all of these show Conan to be young and independent- a thief, rogue, or mercenary. In this version, I include the Hall of the Dead (fragment), which introduces the sidekick Nestor who has been hanged at the beginning of "Rogues". Frost Giant's Daughter/Gods of the North. The God in the Bowl Tower of the Elephant (Hall of the Dead) Rogues in the House After the events in Rogues, Conan makes one of his periodic returns north to Cimmeria, as Howard says, but finds little to his liking and therefore resumes his wanderings as a mercenary soldier in (fragment) The Hand of Nergal. Though mainly a pastiche, "Nergal" is an important grain in the chronology as it continues Conan's life of mercenary soldiering, introduces the bowmanship of the Hyrkanians, and even we guess his first familiarity with the Kozaks of later adventures. This next stage of Conan's career may be summarized as the Journey to the South. Hall of the Dead is absolutely essential when doing a chronology. It can even be argued Nestor is the inspiration for the Gunderman in the tavern at the opening of Tower. Yaralet is very handy, there's so little of it is can be used for whatever story you want to tell. I used it similarly to lead to the time in the Turanian army DeCamp came up with. His time in Hyrkania has to go somewhere, though I don't think Iron Shadows works as well as Dale has it.
|
|
|
Post by Reaver on Feb 17, 2023 22:11:22 GMT -5
The next stage of Conan's wanderings takes him to central and southern Hyborian regions and concludes with his dramatic encounter with Belit and first pirate career.
Journey to the South: Hand of Nergal (fragment) Black Colossus Xuthal of the Dusk/Slithering Shadow Queen of the Black Coast Snout in the Dark (fragment)
In this cycle, Conan wanders from Cimmeria southeast again, ending up a mercenary soldier of the Turanian king; he is now more a soldier for hire than roving thief. From there he wanders on to Khoraja, his experience giving him prominence which Fate recognizes, delivering him his first army command on the instructions of Mitra in "Black Colossus". Following this adventure he seeks to continue his new-learned leadership in another war, joining Prince Almuric's army until its final slaughter as the background of "Xuthal of the Dusk." After his escape from Xuthal, Conan wanders to the Hyborian coast and ends up in Argos- "seeking employment, but with no wars forward, there was nothing to which I might turn my hand." This places the events of Queen of the Black Coast after the tales we know that feature Conan as a mercenary- past (mostly) his young thieving career. After the events of "Queen," with Conan far in the south of the Hyborian world and having acquired local fame as Amra the Lion, the pirate leader, he found his way to Shumballa and the events of "Snout in the Dark." From here it seems that he returned home once again to Cimmeria- shaken by the loss of his love Belit and encounters with alien-configured old ones of the ancient city on the Zarkheba river, and sorcery and strife among the local kingdoms. After this Northern respite he will again venture eastward for new adventures.
The Nergal fragment is helpful to the chronologies; Conan refers in "Queen" to learning archery among the Hyrkanians, which must have been during his time with eastern armies. It's also possible Conan first encountered the Zuagirs in the swirling battlefields of Turan and Hyrkania. A pity there is so little of Howard's original; the Lin Carter rewritten pastiche is not to be taken as canonical. Perhaps a new story could be written from Howard's public domain fragment. The Turanian king "Yildiz" first appears in the pastiche. I'll mention here that this eastern monarch, whose schemes and expansionism form the backdrop of several stories, I consider to be the same as- not predecessor of- the king named Yezdigerd in other stories. The names are similar of course, and Howard in his prodigious writings of Conan and other stories used similar names for various heroines and monsters. The separation of this king into two people is entirely non-canonical and is only described in the pastiche works. Recognizing Yildiz/Yezdigerd as one relentlessly expansionist king helps to resolve the chronology of later Conan's Sojourn in the East.
|
|
|
Post by johnnypt on Feb 17, 2023 22:34:00 GMT -5
Interesting choice for Xuthal. I think he’s a little more experienced at that point, but there’s nothing I can think of immediately why it can’t be there. The main arguments for later would be is Conan going to go work for another rebel prince in Iron Shadows after this one ended badly (not like IS didn’t end bad either!). The other point is having Queen and BC together works a little better since you can see the genesis of BC in Conan’s stock and trade at the beginning of Queen (still not sure why Miller and Clark put it after Queen).
But always good to shake things up and see things differently! If you move it after Queen (and Shumballah), I think it might work a little better to set him up for the next phase. Iron Shadows is important but it’s so hard to place, it doesn’t fit in well anywhere! You’d think it’d do well back to back with Devil but for some reason I can’t get it to fit right. I think it’s sort of the same thing as the earlier stories, he seems more experienced in Devil than iS.
Speaking of similar names, I came up with a unique solution to the Tamar/Tarantia issue which will be discussed in the next episode.
|
|
|
Post by Reaver on Feb 17, 2023 23:48:27 GMT -5
Thanks, I see Iron Shadows coming next, as Conan's first adventure in his return to the Vilayet Sea area and further journeys east and south. In Iron Shadows, Conan has to have some prior pirate experience to ultimately take command, and he hints at his pirate past to Olivia early on: "I am at home in the high lands. As for pirates-" He grinned enigmatically and bent to the oars. Looking forward to hearing about the capital of Aquilonia, my guess is just that Howard meant one place and used different (but similar) names in the pressure of writing about it at different times. But maybe Asimov had a recollection of the name from Weird Tales and it came to mind for the capital of his Galactic Empire, Trantor..
|
|