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Post by terryallenuk on Dec 6, 2017 14:02:32 GMT -5
Couldn't agree more , just not worth the money these days . When I started picking them up they were 12 cents and took a lot more time to read - Stan , Roy etc. really made then worthwhile reading. In the 70's I was picking up nearly every Marvel title and about half of DC's and it wasn't breaking the bank - couldn't do that even if I wanted to.
Terry
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Post by Char-Vell on Dec 8, 2017 7:38:56 GMT -5
www.theverge.com/2017/11/28/16712564/marvel-editor-in-chief-akira-yoshida-controversyThis is almost as weird as the comics writer who faked being an elite military veteran a few years back. It's also actually relevant to this board because "Yoshida" wrote Conan and the Demons of Khitai. "In shocking news, Marvel’s new editor-in-chief, C.B. Cebulski, admitted today that he masqueraded as a Japanese person for a year writing comics under the pseudonym “Akira Yoshida,”" This really isn't at all like the crap Micah Wright tried to pull: www.newsarama.com/9743-disgraced-micah-wright-staging-comeback-on-kickstarter.htmlCebulski used a pen-name. Big deal. It's been done for millennia. If anyone looks upon him using the "Yoshida" name as somehow "faking his resume", that means they think a writer has to be from a certain background to write a certain story. That attitude is a way bigger problem than calling yourself "Yoshida". Not to mention that the editor knew Cebulski, so there was no "deception" involved. It was all "wink wink" stuff. I've got a news flash for anyone who thinks that what Cebulski did was "wrong" or "weird": the ancestors of Jack Kirby and Stan Lee didn't come from the British Isles. Stan and Jack "appropriated" those surnames. How dare they write about Matt Murdoch, Peter Parker and Reed Richards!?! OTOH, "Demons of Khitai" flatout sucked on numerous levels. I hope Cebulski is a better editor-in-chief than Conan writer. D&C has a good clip on this whole non-troversy: Identity Politics is a cursed sword that drinks the joy from any form of entertainment.
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Post by deuce on Dec 20, 2017 0:53:10 GMT -5
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Post by johnnypt on Dec 20, 2017 8:51:09 GMT -5
I've met Tom B and had numerous online interactions with him, one of the good guys. Not sure what happened here, but I don't doubt at all what Jim is saying happened. Thanos has moved from the cosmic Infinity background to the forefront with the movies. Do we really need THIS many Thanos things going at once, especially with the lower levels of readership we've been discussing?
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Post by terryallenuk on Dec 21, 2017 16:14:51 GMT -5
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Post by lordyam on Dec 21, 2017 18:37:28 GMT -5
Very insightful. The comic store in my town closed down pretty quickly even though it sold a lot of indie stuff too. The problem is that even when there are events that ARE good (like Secret Wars 2015) there's a long delay or just not a lot of passion in them.
THAT I think more than anything is what's killing comics (not diversity); it's the arrogant assumption that you can keep having big events and big events without them loosing their luster. Granted SOME have been good (Secret Wars 2015, the Messiah trilogy) but overall marvel needs to step back a little bit and tone down a lot of the stuff they're producing.
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Post by Von K on Dec 21, 2017 18:56:05 GMT -5
Thanks Terry, great points and good to see something pitched from the retailer's perspective.
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Post by Von K on Dec 21, 2017 19:01:57 GMT -5
Very insightful. The comic store in my town closed down pretty quickly even though it sold a lot of indie stuff too. The problem is that even when there are events that ARE good (like Secret Wars 2015) there's a long delay or just not a lot of passion in them. THAT I think more than anything is what's killing comics (not diversity); it's the arrogant assumption that you can keep having big events and big events without them loosing their luster. Granted SOME have been good (Secret Wars 2015, the Messiah trilogy) but overall marvel needs to step back a little bit and tone down a lot of the stuff they're producing. Can't remember who said they felt that once every two years was about right for big event storylines.
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Post by lordyam on Dec 21, 2017 21:36:05 GMT -5
It's not just timing;
The two events that stand out for me are secret wars 2015 and the messiah trilogy.
Secret Wars 2015 worked because Hickman (a great writer) was allowed to cut loose; Since it's been declining for years and marvel doesn't have the movie rights they were willing to let it conclude; as such we get GREAT character moments for Reed and the others and their story comes to an incredibly satisfying conclusion. Dr Doom is easily at his peak as it's clear he's a villain but has admirable traits and he even has the potential to be good as a hero (he finally lets go of his hatred of Reed).
The Messiah Trilogy was technically three parts of an overarching story. Basically Mutantkind is on the edge of annihilation when a new mutant is born. Each event (Messiah Complex, Messiah War and Second Coming) are all part of the same saga. It begins with the messiah as a baby, sees her as a child and then sees her return as a teenager after years in the future. During all this the characters grow and evolve and we see the X-Men reduced to a desperate state in what is literally their darkest hour (it's pretty much the closest mutant kind has been to extinction.) As such when Hope (yes the name is cheesy) manages to restore Mutantkind (or at least pave the way) it feels earned. Add in that Chris Yost and Craig Kyle are great writers and it all works out.
The other problem is that characters need to stop being used. If you keep using characters eventually you hit a wall and are reduced to using the same tired storylines again and again. It's why One More Day sucked (Quesada thinks he's keeping him healthy when he's making him stale). Secret Wars 2015 allowed the FF4's story to end, and while it was motivated by money they were allowed to leave in style. By contrast characters like Cyclops and Jean Gray became rather tired by the end (though Scott was interesting for a while before AvX fucked him up.)
The Star Wars EU was at a point where the newer generation (Han and Leia's kids) were ready to take over and the old guard could step aside.....but the higher ups chickened out and forced Luke and the others back into the stage....which in turn ruined Luke's character. Ironically enough Chris Clairmont got this. The entire reason he created the new mutants was because he wanted the X-Men to move on and to leave the story naturally. The new characters were less cheap replacements and more a passing the torch.
Another poster on another site (sadly deceased) made the point that Doctor Octopus worked well in Spiderman 2 despite the movies flaws. You see his fall to darkness, his time as a villain and than his sacrifice in a final act of redemption. Beginning, Middle End. Modern comics doesn't allow that.
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Post by Von K on Dec 22, 2017 16:35:13 GMT -5
Interesting points Lordyam.
Stan Lee used to say the chief reason a reader bought a particular comic was for the character. Jim Shooter expanded on that by saying that Marvel were in the ‘relationship’ business (meaning the relationship between the character and the reader). What can happen when a major character is changed or swapped out is a large portion of the audience for that character can change as well. When that happens all at once across the biggest titles, like recently at Marvel, the main audience begins to drift away and the sales drop. Writers breaking the fourth wall with heavy handed polemics doesn't help matters much either (same problem Hollywood has right now).
Like Jim Shooter said, Marvel (Comics division) forgot what business they were in. Hopefully C B Cebulski can steady the ship.
Regarding longer running titles part of the answer lies, I think, in finding the right balance between the more human soap opera conventions and the conventions of the superhero scale narratives. Lean too much toward soap opera and it can get sentimental; conversely, too much superhero stuff and it’s in danger of becoming mere spectacle.
Stan and Jack, who pioneered that particular combo, mostly seemed to strike a good balance between the elements. 'This Man This Monster' (FF 51) is a great example. That storyline may have provided part inspiration for the Doc Doom turnaround you mentioned?
PS I liked Spiderman 2. Alfred Molina was superb portraying Doc Ock as the avuncular genius turned madman. Like you say, they gave him an interesting arc.
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Post by lordyam on Dec 23, 2017 1:02:50 GMT -5
The thing is that comics have ALWAYS been political. The original secret empire from the 70s was a watergate reference (Steve looses faith in america like a lot of americans were). Given how violent and quite frankly horrible the alt right is (they're WORSE than SJWs quite frankly) they SHOULD be pilloried; unfortunately the focus on big events and the preachiness is a little too much. Introducing characters like Kamala Kahn or promoting Carol Danvers aren't bad ideas; THING IS characters need to have flaws and they're reluctant to do that for fear of looking sexist....which just makes the characters look sexist ironically enough.
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Post by deuce on Dec 23, 2017 6:20:52 GMT -5
A good article there, Terry. Thanks for the link!
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Post by deuce on Dec 30, 2017 14:06:42 GMT -5
DC has pulled ahead of Marvel in sales for the first time in forever: www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/best-selling-comics-2017-1070490Hmmm. How did things change so much from four years ago? Probably has nothing to do with DC not turning Batman (or Superman) into a Nazi. Definitely has nothing to do with DC not skinsuiting most of their major characters. Just a crazy happenstance of some sort.
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Post by deuce on Jan 2, 2018 12:41:41 GMT -5
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Post by terryallenuk on Jan 2, 2018 14:23:36 GMT -5
Very sad reading for this ol' Marvelite . Terry
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