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Post by johnnypt on Sept 1, 2017 8:50:40 GMT -5
Here's a kind of thought experiment, reading the stories in published order while adding in the unpublished ones in the slots I noted on the main thread as if Weird Tales had published them:
Phoenix on the Sword-December 1932 The Scarlet Citadel-January 1933 The Frost Giant's Daughter-February 1933* Tower of the Elephant-March 1933 Black Colossus-June 1933 God in the Bowl-August 1933* The Slithering Shadow-September 1933 Pool of the Black One-October 1933 Rogues in the House-January 1934 Shadows in the Moonlight-April 1934 Queen of the Black Coast-May 1934 Vale of Lost Women-July 1934* The Devil In Iron-August 1934 People of the Black Circle-September-November 1934 A Witch Shall Be Born-December 1934 Jewels of Gwahlur-March 1935 Beyond the Black River-May-June 1935 The Black Stranger-July-October 1935* Shadows in Zamboula-November 1935 Hour of the Dragon-December 1935-April 1936 Red Nails-July-October 1936
As Dale Rippke postulated, would Miller & Clark have come up with something different had they worked with these 21 stories instead of 17?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2017 10:19:02 GMT -5
With all due respect, I disagree. In TFGD, for instance, REH mentions Poitain, which doesn't mean Conan went to southwestern Aquilonia in his way between Cimmeria and Asgard. As I noted above, since I've been on this Howard kick the past few months, reading all the different kinds of stories he wrote, when he referred to a previous story, he meant it in the context of the character's past exploits. He did it with other characters, and with El Borak, he even referred to things he wrote as a teenager!
BTW-Can you point out the section in TFGD that mentions Poitain? I just went through both Frost Giant's Daughter and the Amra version and didn't see it.
I think this is it: 'Out across the white blinding plain the chase led. The trampled red field fell out of sight behind him, but still Conan kept on with the silent tenacity of his race. His mailed feet broke through the frozen crust; he sank deep in the drifts and forged through them by sheer strength. But the girl danced across the snow light as a feather floating across a pool; her naked feet barely left their imprint on the hoarfrost that overlaid the crust. In spite of the fire in hisveins, the cold bit through warrior's mail and fur-lined tunic; but the girl in her gossamer veil ran as lightly: as gaily as if she danced through the palm and rose gardens of Poitain.'The Frost-Giant's Daughter, Conan of Cimmeria, Volume 1, Del Rey/Wandering Star, pages 33-34.
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Post by johnnypt on Sept 1, 2017 12:00:07 GMT -5
As I noted above, since I've been on this Howard kick the past few months, reading all the different kinds of stories he wrote, when he referred to a previous story, he meant it in the context of the character's past exploits. He did it with other characters, and with El Borak, he even referred to things he wrote as a teenager!
BTW-Can you point out the section in TFGD that mentions Poitain? I just went through both Frost Giant's Daughter and the Amra version and didn't see it.
I think this is it: 'Out across the white blinding plain the chase led. The trampled red field fell out of sight behind him, but still Conan kept on with the silent tenacity of his race. His mailed feet broke through the frozen crust; he sank deep in the drifts and forged through them by sheer strength. But the girl danced across the snow light as a feather floating across a pool; her naked feet barely left their imprint on the hoarfrost that overlaid the crust. In spite of the fire in hisveins, the cold bit through warrior's mail and fur-lined tunic; but the girl in her gossamer veil ran as lightly: as gaily as if she danced through the palm and rose gardens of Poitain.'The Frost-Giant's Daughter, Conan of Cimmeria, Volume 1, Del Rey/Wandering Star, pages 33-34. Yep, that's it, it was right at the top of the Kindle page!
In this case, he was referring to it in context of the world the character inhabited. He'd just created Poitain in the previous story he'd written and neither had been published at the time so it wouldn't be for the audiences' sake. It was one of his gifts to be able to create an image of a world we'd never seen, "the palm and rose gardens of Poitain" paints a very vivid mental picture without knowing exactly what Poitain even is.
Funny thing is, rereading the Conan-Prospero interaction in PotS where Poitain is first mentioned, you could almost put FGD right in their conversation since it's mostly about the northern countries and Ymir gets name checked.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2017 14:21:07 GMT -5
I love the cut-scene immediately after the Conan-Prospero interaction from the first submitted draft:
His gusty laughter followed Prospero out of the chamber. The carven door closed behind the Poitanian, and Conan turned back to his task. He paused a moment, idly listening to his friend's retreating footsteps, which fell hollowly on the tiles. And is if the empty sound struck a kindred chord in his soul, a rush of revulsion swept over him. His mirth fell away from him like a mask, and face was suddenly old, his eyes worn. The unreasoning melancholy of the Cimmerian fell like a shroud about his soul, paralyzing him with a crushing sense of futility of human endeavor and the meaningless of life. His kingship, his pleasures, his fears, his ambitions, and all earthly things were revealed to him suddenly as dust and broken toys. The borders of life shrivelled and the lines of existence closed in about him, numbing him. Dropping his lion head in his mighty hands, he groaned aloud. Then lifting his head, as a man looks for escape, his eyes fell on a crystal jar of yellow wine. Quickly he rose pouring a goblet full, quaffed it at a gulp. Again he filled and emptied the goblet, and again. When he set it down, a fine warmth stole through his veins. Things and happenings assumed new values. The dark Cimmerian hills faded far behind him. Life was good and real and vibrant after all - not the dream of an idiot god. He stretched himself lazily like a gigantic cat and seated himself at the table, conscious of the magnitude and vital importance of himself and his task. Contently, he nibbled his stylus and eyed his map. "South of Hyperborea lies Brythunia," he murmured aloud. Selecting a broad blank space far out on the Hyrkanian desert to baffle inquisitive explorers, he wrote laboriously, "Here be dragons." then leaning back he surveyed his work with childish pride.
Conan of Cimmeria, Volume1, Del Rey/Wandering Star, pages 360-361
Powerful stuff from Robert E. Howard. What can I say? Brilliant!
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fernando
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Post by fernando on Sept 1, 2017 18:47:03 GMT -5
I think this is it: 'Out across the white blinding plain the chase led. The trampled red field fell out of sight behind him, but still Conan kept on with the silent tenacity of his race. His mailed feet broke through the frozen crust; he sank deep in the drifts and forged through them by sheer strength. But the girl danced across the snow light as a feather floating across a pool; her naked feet barely left their imprint on the hoarfrost that overlaid the crust. In spite of the fire in hisveins, the cold bit through warrior's mail and fur-lined tunic; but the girl in her gossamer veil ran as lightly: as gaily as if she danced through the palm and rose gardens of Poitain.'The Frost-Giant's Daughter, Conan of Cimmeria, Volume 1, Del Rey/Wandering Star, pages 33-34. Yep, that's it, it was right at the top of the Kindle page!
In this case, he was referring to it in context of the world the character inhabited. I think the same about the reference to Xuthal in TDiI. REH wrote "The Devil" slightly after XotD.
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Post by amrathelion on Sept 6, 2017 17:00:30 GMT -5
I remembering reading your expansive work on the old site ( is all that work posted elsewhere? The annotations are essential reading). I think we may have discussed it back then, but why Xuthal before Iron Shadows and Bit-Yakin after Pool? Since I've been reading a lot of Howard's other stories the past few months and noting the connections he made to previous stories, references to earlier works were purposeful. If we wrote "Conan, late of the Baracha Isles" in Servants, he almost certainly meant to refer to his time with the in Pool since that was the only time he'd referred to them before. And I'm not sure Conan would be in a hurry to go back to fighting for a rebel prince of Koth again in IS after his time with Almuric didn't end so well. Not that the situation in IS was much better, both times the entire army ended up getting wiped out. I know I questioned why Witch is so early, but now I can see it: Conan leaves Khoraja, needs a job, winds up in Khauran, wanders around with the Zuagirs in Turan and Hyrkania, goes to Zamboula, then out to Argos and Queen. Still probably prefer it later, but this could work. 1. No it is not. I have my notes. Supposedly the conversations were preserved prior to the site going down but we are yet to see them back up in an archive. 2. I placed Xuthal of the Dusk prior to The Devil in Iron for the same reason that Marek and Rippke did, that in Devil Conan decides that the Dagonian people of Dagonia which ruins are presently found on the island of Xapur, are addicted to a drug, perhaps the black lotus like the people of Xuthal. Conan would not be able to decide that there were any similarities unless he remembered seeing the same drug induced slumber as he did at Xuthal, making Xuthal of the Dusk a prior story. He had already experienced the slumber caused by the black lotus during Queen of the Black Coast and could have likened it to that experience, instead he likened it to the more recent one in Xuthal. "He decided that she must be an addict of some drug, perhaps like the black lotus of Xuthal." -The Devil in Iron “There was neither surprise nor hostility in his amber eyes. They were dreamy as a lotus-eater’s.” – Xuthal of the Dusk “Much of the time these people lie in sleep. Their dream-life is as important – and to them as real – as their waking life. You have heard of the black lotus? In certain pits of the city it grows. Through the ages they have cultivated it, until, instead of death, its juice induces dreams, gorgeous and fantastic. In these dreams they spend most of their time. Their lives are vague, erratic, and without plan. They dream, they wake, drink, love, eat, and dream again. They seldom finish anything they begin, but leave it half completed and sink back again into the slumber of the black lotus.” – Xuthal of the Dusk I placed Iron shadows before The Devil in Iron because of several reasons. One of which is that Conan has plenty of experience at this point in his career with the Turanians having raided them with the Zuagir and Free Companions and having seen the cruelty of Shah Amurath when the Free Companions were captured. He makes a promise that he is not done with them and keeps his promise in The Devil in Iron. “’Pirates, storms, starvation – they are all kinder than the people of Turan.’ ‘Aye.’ His face grew somber. ‘I haven’t done with them yet.’” – Iron Shadows in the Moon 3. The Barachan Isles are only specifically mentioned in two tales about pirates, The Pool of the Black One and The Black Stranger, and referenced one time each in Beyond the Black River and The Hour of the Dragon. The time that Conan has spent among the Barachan pirates is never set forth in a story of its own and only alluded to in others.
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Post by amrathelion on Sept 6, 2017 17:20:12 GMT -5
“In spite of the fire in his veins, the cold bit through the warrior’s mail and fur-lined tunic; but the girl in her gossamer veil ran as lightly and as gaily as if she danced through the palm and rose gardens of Poitain."– The Frost-Giant’s Daughter
"He decided that she must be an addict of some drug, perhaps like the black lotus of Xuthal." -The Devil in Iron
The difference to me is the one about Xuthal is a direct reference about the Conan character as a memory comparison.
The one that mentions Poitain is Robert E. Howard the author, world building, mentioning part of the world as part of the narration of the story. Not as part of any character's dialog or memory. It is a nexus to a previously written story The Phoenix on the Sword where Poitain is first mentioned.
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Post by johnnypt on Sept 7, 2017 10:00:26 GMT -5
Sorry I think we got mixed up: I was wondering why Xuthal is placed before Iron Shadows, not Devil. I completely agree about putting Devil after Xuthal and the mention of Poitain in FGD.
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fernando
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Post by fernando on Sept 9, 2017 14:53:10 GMT -5
I respect the opinions about XoTD before TDiI, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree. As for my own Conan's chronlogy I promised months ago, here's it! - The Frost Giant's Daughter
- The God in the Bowl
- The Tower of the Elephant
- Nestor Synopsis
- Rogues in the House
- Yaralet fragment
- Queen of the Black Coast
- Shumballa fragment/synopsis
- Black Colossus
- Iron Shadows in the Moon
- A Witch Shall be Born (Chapters 1 and 2)
- The Man-Eaters of Zamboula
- A Witch Shall be Born (Chapters 3-6)
- The Devil in Iron
- People of the Black Circle
- Xuthal of the Dusk
- Pool of the Black One
- Tombalku fragment/synopsis
- The Servants of Bît-Yakîm
- Beyond the Black River
- The Black Stranger
- Red Nails
- The Valley of the Lost Women
- Wolves Beyond the Border (fragment/synopsis)
- The Phoenix on the Sword
- The Scarlet Citadel
- The Hour of the Dragon
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Post by amrathelion on Sept 11, 2017 17:56:27 GMT -5
Sorry I think we got mixed up: I was wondering why Xuthal is placed before Iron Shadows, not Devil. I completely agree about putting Devil after Xuthal and the mention of Poitain in FGD. I feel that Iron Shadows in the Moon definitely comes before Devil in Iron and that they are linked geographically and chronologically with a clear progression of Conan becoming a mercenary Free Companion and Wastrel Kozaki raider and surviving the slaughter on the Ilbars River, then becoming a captain of the Vilayet Pirates of the Red Brotherhood. Conan has risen to leadership by the strength of his arm and his wits, by joining the Kozaki and the pirates of the Vilayet Sea, The Red Brotherhood together. Conan by the time of Devil in Iron is a Kozaki Chief or hetman. “Dwelling on the wild, open steppes, owning no law but their own peculiar code, they had become a people capable even of defying the Grand Monarch. Ceaselessly they raided the Turanian frontier, retiring in the steppes when defeated; with the pirates of Vilayet, men of much the same breed, they harried the coast, preying off the merchant ships which plied between the Hyrkanian ports.” – The Devil in Iron Because I think that Xuthal of the Dusk must precede Devil in Iron but think that Iron Shadows also precedes and leads directly to Devil in Iron, then Xuthal must come before Iron Shadows in my opinion.
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Post by amrathelion on Sept 11, 2017 17:59:35 GMT -5
I respect the opinions about XoTD before TDiI, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
I don't think everyone will ever completely agree to any chronology. At best you might get others to agree on early in his career, middle career, and late in his career. Might being the key word in the preceding sentence! Early in his career: The God in the Bowl The Tower of the Elephant The Nestor Synopsis Rogues in the House The Yaralet Fragment Queen of the Black Coast Middle Career The Shumballa Typescripts Xuthal of the Dusk Iron Shadows in the Moon The Devil in Iron People of the Black Circle The Tombalku Typescripts The Vale of Lost Women The Servants of Bit-Yakin The Pool of the Black One Late Career: Red Nails Beyond the Black River The Black Stranger Wolves Beyond the Border Typescripts The Phoenix on the Sword The Scarlet Citadel The Hour of the Dragon Controversial The Frost-Giant's Daughter Black Colossus A Witch Shall be Born The Man-Eaters of Zamboula
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Post by johnnypt on Sept 12, 2017 10:32:32 GMT -5
Sorry I think we got mixed up: I was wondering why Xuthal is placed before Iron Shadows, not Devil. I completely agree about putting Devil after Xuthal and the mention of Poitain in FGD. I feel that Iron Shadows in the Moon definitely comes before Devil in Iron and that they are linked geographically and chronologically with a clear progression of Conan becoming a mercenary Free Companion and Wastrel Kozaki raider and surviving the slaughter on the Ilbars River, then becoming a captain of the Vilayet Pirates of the Red Brotherhood. Conan has risen to leadership by the strength of his arm and his wits, by joining the Kozaki and the pirates of the Vilayet Sea, The Red Brotherhood together. Conan by the time of Devil in Iron is a Kozaki Chief or hetman. “Dwelling on the wild, open steppes, owning no law but their own peculiar code, they had become a people capable even of defying the Grand Monarch. Ceaselessly they raided the Turanian frontier, retiring in the steppes when defeated; with the pirates of Vilayet, men of much the same breed, they harried the coast, preying off the merchant ships which plied between the Hyrkanian ports.” – The Devil in Iron Because I think that Xuthal of the Dusk must precede Devil in Iron but think that Iron Shadows also precedes and leads directly to Devil in Iron, then Xuthal must come before Iron Shadows in my opinion.
Guess Yildiz lost the vote of confidence to Yezdigerd. It would make things a whole lot easier to have both of them take place back to back. But I'd also put Iron Shadows in the controversial category, it takes place some time before Devil In Iron but how long before is an open question.
The one issue that sort of sticks out: Conan hangs with a rebel prince of Koth, everybody gets wiped out, he winds up in a lost city, makes his way back to civilization where he joins up with...another rebel prince of Koth. They must pay really well or his hate for Strabonus borders on "Man on the Ground" intensity. Here DeCamp looks far and wide for a "bad guy" for the Conan Saga and thought Thoth Amon fit the bill when they had one right in front of them the whole time (True, the king of Koth wasn't named but hey, we're extrapolating here...)
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Post by amrathelion on Sept 12, 2017 16:32:02 GMT -5
Guess Yildiz lost the vote of confidence to Yezdigerd. It would make things a whole lot easier to have both of them take place back to back. But I'd also put Iron Shadows in the controversial category, it takes place some time before Devil In Iron but how long before is an open question.
The one issue that sort of sticks out: Conan hangs with a rebel prince of Koth, everybody gets wiped out, he winds up in a lost city, makes his way back to civilization where he joins up with...another rebel prince of Koth. They must pay really well or his hate for Strabonus borders on "Man on the Ground" intensity. Here DeCamp looks far and wide for a "bad guy" for the Conan Saga and thought Thoth Amon fit the bill when they had one right in front of them the whole time (True, the king of Koth wasn't named but hey, we're extrapolating here...)
What do we know from the stories themselves? First that at the time of Iron Shadows in the Moon Yildiz is a king of Turan. "Cast off there, dogs! We’ll scorch King Yildiz’s pantaloons yet, by crom!” – Iron Shadows in the Moon Yezedigerd is also a king of Turan in The Devil in Iron. "Yezdigerd, King of Turan, was the mightiest monarch in the world." – The Devil in Iron There is no further reference to what happened to these kings. However Yezdigerd is described as a grand monarch possibly indicating a lesser monarch. In The Servants of Bit-Yakin there is an enigmatic phrase that suggests the possibility of more than one Turanian king. “…capable even of defying the Grand Monarch.” The Devil in Iron “…following the lure of a fabled treasure that outshone the hoard of the Turanian kings.” - The Servants of Bit-Yakin Further in The Devil in Iron we are told emphatically that Yezdigerd made the Vilayet a Hyrkanian lake while in Iron Shadows in the Moon Olivia tells Conan that the Vilayet is a Hyrkanian pond and then the story mentions King Yildiz at the end. "Yezdigerd, King of Turan, was the mightiest monarch in the world.In his palace in the great port city of Aghrapur was heaped the plunder of empires. His fleets of purple-sailed war galleys had made Vilayet an Hyrkanian lake." – The Devil in Iron “Vilayet is an Hyrkanian pond.” – Iron Shadows in the Moon It is clear for other reasons that The Devil in Iron is sequentially later than Iron Shadows in the Moon based on Conan being a Kozaki chieftain. We do not know if there are two kings of Turan at the same time, if one took over the reins of the other, or if Yildiz becoming the ruler of an empire decided to change his name. Regardless there is scant irrefutable evident one way or the other to support any of the possibilities or to suppose one of the kings had died or had been deposed. We do not know how long Conan was a member of the Red Brotherhood scouring the Vilayet Sea and any change in rule of the kingdom of Turan could have happened during this time. The kingdom of Turan grew clear to the borders of the Vilayet as evidenced by the boundary changes in Howard's map. To think that war was involved employing many a mercenary, that it may have lasted during the rule of more than one ruler, or even that the king decided to change his name becoming a grand monarch or emperor are not impossible. All have historical corollaries such as the combining of the upper and lower kingdoms of Egypt, Pharaohs changing names, Temujin changing his name to Genghis Khan as he conquered vast territories, etc. In the Ottoman Empire Mehmed gains the title of Conqueror as he destroys the Byzantine Empire with the conquest of Constantinople, and Suleiman the Magnificent is called Kanuni the Lawgiver during his reign as sultan. As for hanging out with a rebel prince... well Conan hangs out with no one. Everyone else hangs out with him. Conan was a mercenary. He got paid to fight against Koth for Prince Almuric's army. They were wiped out as we know with Conan and a girl being the only survivors. “He and the girl were, so far as he knew, the sole survivors of Prince Almuric’s army, that mad motley horde which, following the defeated rebel prince of Koth, swept through the Lands of Shem like a devastating sandstorm and drenched the outlands of Stygia with blood..” – Xuthal of the Dusk He has an adventure in Xuthal then considering Stygia and the surrounding environs too hostile went north again looking for work. Mercenaries go to where the wars are. Perhaps there was a power vacuum because of the death of Prince Almuric, perhaps his brother also wanted the crown for himself. I don't find it strange at all that Conan would find himself employed as a mercenary again for a rebel prince against Koth. However this time perhaps the emboldened prince was subdued on learning about his brother's death after witnessing his brother's rebel army get defeated and exiled to Shem and Stygia where they were eventually destroyed. The prince wisely not wanting to share a similar fate makes peace with the cursed sovereign and pisses off all the mercenaries who are now unemployed. So the mercenaries hook up with the Free Companions as Kozaki raiders and raid Koth, Zamora, and Turan anyway. Maybe the rebel prince made peace because he was promised power as Koth needed to not be fighting against themselves with Turan gobbling up huge amounts of land and becoming an empire. Koth in a civil war makes an easy target for the expansion of the growing Turanian empire. Or maybe the cursed sovereign was friends with the Turanian king or kings and the prince knew they were becoming a powerhouse that he would not be able to stop if he usurped the Kothic throne and made enemies of them. "I was one of those dissolute rogues, the Free Companions, who burned and looted along the borders. There were five thousand of us, from a score of races and tribes. We had been serving as mercenaries for a rebel prince in eastern Koth, most of us, and when he made peace with his cursed sovereign, we were out of employment; so we took to plundering the outlying dominions of Koth, Zamora and Turan impartially.” – Iron Shadows in the Moon
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Post by KiramidHead on Dec 2, 2019 20:29:00 GMT -5
I went reading through the various essays on the chronology last night, and personally I fall somewhere in between Marek's and Rippke's takes. I prefer Rippke's placement of God in the Bowl, but I like Marek's placement of Red Nails and Gwahlur a bit better. So my personal order is like this:
The Frost Giant's Daughter The God in the Bowl The Tower of the Elephant Rogues in the House Black Colossus Iron Shadows in the Moon Queen of the Black Coast Xuthal of the Dusk A Witch Shall Be Born The Devil in Iron The People of the Black Circle The Man-Eaters of Zamboula The Vale of Lost Women The Pool of the Black One Red Nails The Servants of Bit-Yakin Beyond the Black River The Black Stranger The Phoenix on the Sword The Scarlet Citadel The Hour of the Dragon
I'm toying with maybe shifting around Vale and Servants, but I'll leave it at that for now. And I left out the fragments because I'm frankly a bit agnostic on the subject.
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Post by johnnypt on Dec 5, 2019 10:53:42 GMT -5
I went reading through the various essays on the chronology last night, and personally I fall somewhere in between Marek's and Rippke's takes. I prefer Rippke's placement of God in the Bowl, but I like Marek's placement of Red Nails and Gwahlur a bit better. So my personal order is like this: The Frost Giant's Daughter The God in the Bowl The Tower of the Elephant Rogues in the House Black Colossus Iron Shadows in the Moon Queen of the Black Coast Xuthal of the Dusk A Witch Shall Be Born The Devil in Iron The People of the Black Circle The Man-Eaters of Zamboula The Vale of Lost Women The Pool of the Black One Red Nails The Servants of Bit-Yakin Beyond the Black River The Black Stranger The Phoenix on the Sword The Scarlet Citadel The Hour of the Dragon I'm toying with maybe shifting around Vale and Servants, but I'll leave it at that for now. And I left out the fragments because I'm frankly a bit agnostic on the subject. Boy that Iron Shadows is a puzzler! It doesn't seem to really fit nicely anywhere, but it has to go somewhere. The placement between BC and Queen is a little too back and forth for me, but DH did it that way. The wrecked ship mentioned in Red Nails and Black Stranger at the same time is and isn't the Wastrel in both (or either) case. So if you don't want to have a Black & Red trilogy, it's no problem. I think the only fragment that isn't really set is Tombalku. Nestor/Hall of the Dead is between Tower & Rogues, Snout in the Dark is after Queen and Wolves is before Phoenix. Tombalku would probably work best between Zamboula and Vale for yours.
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