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Post by Aryeh on Apr 5, 2020 8:59:57 GMT -5
To a certain point I think you and I are in agreement, but I think that your concern may be more about absolutes whereas I am simply looking at supplementation, not replacement ( and to think this all started from a post about planting a few veggies in the garden ).
Absolutely -- my concerns where more about absolutes.
Regarding you and I being in an agreement -- I think we strongly agree on something fundamental, and that that fundamental thing is striving towards some kind of autonomy, not being dependent on a state, etc.
In this sense, through my posts I wanted to supplement what you said about autonomy in rural, with what I believe is the only way for someone to be autonomous in urban. Namely, because someone living in an urban area for one reason or another cannot simply abandon that area and move to a rural area and then start working on one's garden, etc., and, on the other hand, because I believe (because of all I said previously i.e. because of mass production which the over-populated world needs, because of support for culture and art, etc.) we should not abandon the urban, we should be able to also find some autonomy in the urban.
I think this urban autonomy comes from being politically active at least in some way, at least for example in a situation like the one we are starting to have globally today, to say things such as "OK, we give up some of our rights, such as moving freely, not gathering in groups more then X number of people, etc. -- but only for now, and we want those freedoms back as soon as this is over!" Or in another type of cases, when someone who worked either for government or for some private company is now threatened with losing one's job because of the pandemic, one should fight for some kind of financial security. Or, companies themselves that cannot continue their work now, they need to fight for some kind of support, Etc.
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Post by kemp on Apr 6, 2020 2:46:03 GMT -5
To a certain point I think you and I are in agreement, but I think that your concern may be more about absolutes whereas I am simply looking at supplementation, not replacement ( and to think this all started from a post about planting a few veggies in the garden ).
Absolutely -- my concerns where more about absolutes.
Regarding you and I being in an agreement -- I think we strongly agree on something fundamental, and that that fundamental thing is striving towards some kind of autonomy, not being dependent on a state, etc.
In this sense, through my posts I wanted to supplement what you said about autonomy in rural, with what I believe is the only way for someone to be autonomous in urban. Namely, because someone living in an urban area for one reason or another cannot simply abandon that area and move to a rural area and then start working on one's garden, etc., and, on the other hand, because I believe (because of all I said previously i.e. because of mass production which the over-populated world needs, because of support for culture and art, etc.) we should not abandon the urban, we should be able to also find some autonomy in the urban.
I think this urban autonomy comes from being politically active at least in some way, at least for example in a situation like the one we are starting to have globally today, to say things such as "OK, we give up some of our rights, such as moving freely, not gathering in groups more then X number of people, etc. -- but only for now, and we want those freedoms back as soon as this is over!" Or in another type of cases, when someone who worked either for government or for some private company is now threatened with losing one's job because of the pandemic, one should fight for some kind of financial security. Or, companies themselves that cannot continue their work now, they need to fight for some kind of support, Etc.
‘Regarding you and I being in an agreement -- I think we strongly agree on something fundamental, and that that fundamental thing is striving towards some kind of autonomy, not being dependent on a state, etc.’
Again, agreed. ‘…we should not abandon the urban, we should be able to also find some autonomy in the urban.’
I think so too.
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Post by kemp on Apr 6, 2020 3:02:34 GMT -5
I think the economic and financial fallout from this pandemic will be made apparent in the next few months, and of course there might be other manmade and natural disasters to contend with in the near future.
The lack of trust in respective governments is apparent when you consider how so many have been overstocking and hoarding items from supermarkets, even when reasonably advised against such action by local authorities.
In urban centers, people stocking up on flour to make their own bread in case of some shortages ( bakeries out of bread ) is another example of a type of self reliance.
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Post by Aryeh on Apr 6, 2020 7:30:12 GMT -5
In urban centers, people stocking up on flour to make their own bread in case of some shortages ( bakeries out of bread ) is another example of a type of self reliance.
I think one can reach only some kind of a very short term independence by piling up things. Not to mention that if things get worse, this kind of behavior will only inspire a "dog-eats-dog" relationships. Then those piling things up will be the first to go when the looting (they themselves inspired through their short-term thinking) starts.
Instead, one should fight for safe conditions for workers in industry (masks, 2 meters distance in work place, etc. provided by employer). Then, for writing off debts, for loans, etc. both in cases of individuals and companies, so one has something to spend, plus one can (by spending) pump up and resuscitate the market.
In short, we should remember that states, governments, even money itself, were all invented and made in the first place in order to support humans (and not the other way around). And if they (governments, etc.) are not helping now, in situations like these, what good are they then?
Only through re-appropriating at least in some way (or at least reminding those institutions that they serve a bigger purpose then sustaining themselves) the state, the industry, the banks, etc. one can secure a long-term independence. They are what in the first place urban society was investing in and supporting precisely in case something like this we have now happens, they are "urbane gardens". We don't need to be slaves to social constructs in a situation in which we are forced to be slaves to whims of nature like this virus.
Very specifically, one can find numerous articles today how for example medical institutions were getting loans for decades which they were investing only in buying their own stocks, and NOT in experiments, inventions, etc. Such practice has to stop, and they need to go back to their original purpose. If they weren't thinking only of buying their own stocks, if they did they job instead, we would have a vaccine by now.
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Post by kemp on Apr 7, 2020 0:41:29 GMT -5
In urban centers, people stocking up on flour to make their own bread in case of some shortages ( bakeries out of bread ) is another example of a type of self reliance.
I think one can reach only some kind of a very short term independence by piling up things. Not to mention that if things get worse, this kind of behavior will only inspire a "dog-eats-dog" relationships. Then those piling things up will be the first to go when the looting (they themselves inspired through their short-term thinking) starts.
Instead, one should fight for safe conditions for workers in industry (masks, 2 meters distance in work place, etc. provided by employer). Then, for writing off debts, for loans, etc. both in cases of individuals and companies, so one has something to spend, plus one can (by spending) pump up and resuscitate the market.
In short, we should remember that states, governments, even money itself, were all invented and made in the first place in order to support humans (and not the other way around). And if they (governments, etc.) are not helping now, in situations like these, what good are they then?
Only through re-appropriating at least in some way (or at least reminding those institutions that they serve a bigger purpose then sustaining themselves) the state, the industry, the banks, etc. one can secure a long-term independence. They are what in the first place urban society was investing in and supporting precisely in case something like this we have now happens, they are "urbane gardens". We don't need to be slaves to social constructs in a situation in which we are forced to be slaves to whims of nature like this virus.
Very specifically, one can find numerous articles today how for example medical institutions were getting loans for decades which they were investing only in buying their own stocks, and NOT in experiments, inventions, etc. Such practice has to stop, and they need to go back to their original purpose. If they weren't thinking only of buying their own stocks, if they did they job instead, we would have a vaccine by now.
What we had, was a first wave of people literally hoarding up on certain items, the second wave included people stocking up to just make up for the aforementioned selfish sods. It ‘s a complex interplay, pick up a few things for the family, work colleagues have helped each other. Most people are generally ok, just prone to fear. I would recommend people heed the measures given by the local health authorities to help and stop the spread of the virus. It is a difficult time. ‘Not to mention that if things get worse, this kind of behavior will only inspire a "dog-eats-dog" relationships’
Aryeh, which corner of the world do you hail from ? Don’t forget that the vast amounts of money that have so far been spent on funds and packages to help cover the health services, and damage from layoffs and businesses closing their doors, came from a working economy, sectors like small business have been a part of the lifeblood of the economy. It’s not money from thin air, and it will need to be recouped at some later stage, perhaps in the form of higher taxes. There is no free money, it is a balancing act. The decisions being made by governments now, in effect ‘temporary freeze of the economy’ is simply about sustaining the aforementioned state, industry, and the banks. Many fear the alternative, that allowing the virus to run rampant, largely unchecked, would cause more damage to the economy in the long run. Different governments have looked at this in slightly different ways. At some point the economy will need to get into gear again if it is to survive. ‘If they weren't thinking only of buying their own stocks, if they did they job instead, we would have a vaccine by now.’
There is no way to know that for certain. Failure of effective treatments and vaccines might mean that this is something we will have to ride out, manage the best way we can, and hope the damage on the other end is sustainable enough. At this point in time many of the coronavirus hotspots actually need more stock, that is respirators, surgical masks, face shields, gloves and ventilators.
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Post by Aryeh on Apr 7, 2020 4:19:13 GMT -5
Aryeh, which corner of the world do you hail from ? Don’t forget that the vast amounts of money that have so far been spent on funds and packages to help cover the health services, and damage from layoffs and businesses closing their doors, came from a working economy, sectors like small business have been a part of the lifeblood of the economy. It’s not money from thin air, and it will need to be recouped at some later stage, perhaps in the form of higher taxes. There is no free money, it is a balancing act. The decisions being made by governments now, in effect ‘temporary freeze of the economy’ is simply about sustaining the aforementioned state, industry, and the banks. Many fear the alternative, that allowing the virus to run rampant, largely unchecked, would cause more damage to the economy in the long run. Different governments have looked at this in slightly different ways. At some point the economy will need to get into gear again if it is to survive. - Europe, but have both friends and family on several other continents. - Robert Heinlein, a science fiction veteran, an author of "Starship Troopers", also, a follower of Ayn Rand, wrote that in case of catastrophe we should be able to reset economy at least in a soft way (for example through loans one doesn't really expect they are payed back, etc.). His point was: economy is man-made (and not something some god created i.e. it is not set in stone). If we become aware economy is a man-made game really, and that it was created in order to support us (and not that we are there because of economy) then we can give ourselves some slack. One can print money, etc. in order not to sacrifice lives. That should be bottom-line: if it is about lives on one side and economy on the other, it should be clear what is there a priority. So, yeah, it should be possible in cases of catastrophe to produce money out of thin air so to speak.
It is already done in a way through bailouts. Large companies are getting bailouts without anyone asking where the money comes from. The same should be done for small companies AND for everyone really. If anything, what the lockdowns show today very clearly is that the economy is dropping because the 'main street' is not buying. One needs therefore to pump money both into big companies and at the same time pump money into 'main street' (and not just into Wall Street).
I was referring to market stocks. Medical companies were buying their own market stocks instead of investing in inventions, production, etc. That is the reason we now don't have enough masks, respirators, etc.
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Post by kemp on Apr 7, 2020 9:37:59 GMT -5
An economy is not simply ‘reset’. Consider the restaurant and café sector, We are talking about years of expertise and business skills, the longer we stay in lockdown the greater the risks that many will not be able to start up again, some will fear the risk, others ruined financially. The real estate market, again, uncertainty in the future would make many think it not worth the extra work to take a chance on investment properties. I will not even get into the quagmire surrounding landlords and commercial tenants. www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-07/business-rent-fears-amid-coronavirus-lockdown/12125996What about the other side, small landlords and private tenants. The US. ‘Small landlords struggle as renters either can’t or choose not to pay amid coronavirus layoffs’ www.cnbc.com/2020/04/02/coronavirus-small-landlords-struggle-as-renters-stop-payments.html‘One can print money, etc. in order not to sacrifice lives.’ Actually no, you need a working economy to circulate the money, printing money only simply devalues the currency, in turn we have high inflation. You need to brush up on the reasons for the 1929 stock crash, especially the panic selling in October 1929. The bailouts are a stop gap measure, and at some point they need to be recouped. This fact is normally lost on many idealists who think governments can just start throwing money around like confetti with no consequences. www.theguardian.com/business/2020/mar/25/coronavirus-pandemic-has-delivered-the-fastest-deepest-economic-shock-in-historyFor years the richer EU states were foolishly giving ‘bailouts’ to the poorer members of the union with no strings attached, the money went into black holes, was never payed back, and those countries went into deeper financial holes. I think this is one of those things in which some of us will have to agree to disagree.
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Post by Aryeh on Apr 7, 2020 10:31:19 GMT -5
For years the richer EU states were foolishly giving ‘bailouts’ to the poorer members of the union with no strings attached, the money went into black holes, was never payed back, and those countries went into deeper financial holes.
I don't believe this. Simply cause poor need to buy stuff. By buying they support the economy. On the other hand, if you look at spending of any state whatsoever, you will see lots of irrational expenses, lots of irrational investments. In many such cases they blame the poor. Needless to add -- they blame the poor unjustly, and only in order to cover up their own mistakes.
If you think economy deserves sacrificed lives, then we have to disagree. I see all arguments on this line, how supposedly "in order to save the economy we need to sacrifice lives", simply as fetishism /fundamentalism. It is like money became some kind of pagan deity and we dare not insult that holly thingy. Apropos this very same thing I linked that caricature with dinosaurs watching an asteroid and saying: "Oh, shit! The economy!"
Regarding specifically what I quoted just now from your post -- it is a complicated subject and in other to speak about this one would first need to define from where the value comes from? Is it the market or is it gold reserves? If it is gold reserves then you are right. But I don't think modern capitalism gets value from gold reserves, I think market in large part determines the value. Now, if it is the market, then printing and pumping money will produce money through spending money. I would be prone to conclude that all economic depressions, in the final analysis, happened because of austerity, not because of printing money.
Certain East European states while in gap between socialism and capitalism survived precisely because they paid no attention to inflation. It was only when they became subjects to MMF that they experienced crisis. But before becoming subjects to MMF, while they were truly independent, they survived and even profited exactly the way I described.
Last but not least, there is something called "Modern Monetary Theory" (one can find info on Wikipedia, etc.) that is based on the use of fiat money (currency with no intrinsic value). While it is a controversial theory, nevertheless, it has support from some people that are involved in politics of the highest order.
In my previous post I said the following: "It is already done in a way through bailouts. Large companies are getting bailouts without anyone asking where the money comes from. The same should be done for small companies AND for everyone really. If anything, what the lockdowns show today very clearly is that the economy is dropping because the 'main street' is not buying. One needs therefore to pump money both into big companies and at the same time pump money into 'main street' (and not just into Wall Street)."
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Post by kemp on Apr 8, 2020 2:55:35 GMT -5
I don't believe this. Simply cause poor need to buy stuff. By buying they support the economy. On the other hand, if you look at spending of any state whatsoever, you will see lots of irrational expenses, lots of irrational investments. In many such cases they blame the poor. Needless to add -- they blame the poor unjustly, and only in order to cover up their own mistakes.
If you think economy deserves sacrificed lives, then we have to disagree. I see all arguments on this line, how supposedly "in order to save the economy we need to sacrifice lives", simply as fetishism /fundamentalism. It is like money became some kind of pagan deity and we dare not insult that holly thingy. Apropos this very same thing I linked that caricature with dinosaurs watching an asteroid and saying: "Oh, shit! The economy!"
Regarding specifically what I quoted just now from your post -- it is a complicated subject and in other to speak about this one would first need to define from where the value comes from? Is it the market or is it gold reserves? If it is gold reserves then you are right. But I don't think modern capitalism gets value from gold reserves, I think market in large part determines the value. Now, if it is the market, then printing and pumping money will produce money through spending money. I would be prone to conclude that all economic depressions, in the final analysis, happened because of austerity, not because of printing money.
Certain East European states while in gap between socialism and capitalism survived precisely because they paid no attention to inflation. It was only when they became subjects to MMF that they experienced crisis. But before becoming subjects to MMF, while they were truly independent, they survived and even profited exactly the way I described.
Last but not least, there is something called "Modern Monetary Theory" (one can find info on Wikipedia, etc.) that is based on the use of fiat money (currency with no intrinsic value). While it is a controversial theory, nevertheless, it has support from some people that are involved in politics of the highest order.
In my previous post I said the following: "It is already done in a way through bailouts. Large companies are getting bailouts without anyone asking where the money comes from. The same should be done for small companies AND for everyone really. If anything, what the lockdowns show today very clearly is that the economy is dropping because the 'main street' is not buying. One needs therefore to pump money both into big companies and at the same time pump money into 'main street' (and not just into Wall Street)."
True, money is not some deity, to many people it is, maybe less will think so after this thing. I think it’s a wake up call. There is a lot of altruism in your words, you mean well, I will give you that. Some good news, even if it’s so premature. au.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-china-wuhan-lifts-travel-lockdown-051425010.htmlI have also heard that Denmark and Austria have slightly loosened restrictions. Italy is planning for emerging from the lockdown as new cases and deaths flatten out, with some firms reopening in mid April, maybe. Norway is also making the plans. www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-06/denmark-joins-austria-in-easing-virus-curbs-as-europe-cases-slow‘Denmark will press ahead with a “cautious reopening” starting with daycare and primary schools on April 15 if the virus numbers remain stable, Prime Minister Mette Frederiksen said Monday evening. The government will also start talks with business leaders on gradually moving employees back into offices, but some restrictions will remain in place for months to come.’ You do realise that this current situation can only be temporary. The longer it stays this way the further the economy spirals down, that equals more human misery later on. There is growing talk amongst some of the political heads in my country about slightly easing restrictions to see out the pandemic with an increased and manageable number of cases, hopefully not overwhelm the new ICU beds to house the sick. Others argue to keep tighter restrictions in place for a few months, but admit the inherent problems in doing so.
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Post by kemp on Apr 8, 2020 8:09:27 GMT -5
‘Like walking the tightrope’: Some European countries are starting to lift coronavirus lockdown measures' 'Some European countries have cautiously announced plans to lift coronavirus lockdown measures over the coming days, seeking to pave the way for a return to normal life after a month of severe restrictions. The WHO recognized Europe as the epicenter of the global outbreak in early March, with Spain, Italy, France and Germany all now reporting more than 100,000 cases of the virus. However, some smaller countries in the region have reported a slowing number of new infections and fatalities in recent days. It has tentatively elevated hopes of a possible exit strategy to the pandemic. Austria, the Czech Republic, Denmark and Norway have now all announced plans to slowly relax national lockdowns later this month.' www.cnbc.com/2020/04/08/coronavirus-some-european-countries-set-to-lift-lockdown-measures.html
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Post by linefacedscrivener on Apr 11, 2020 8:36:59 GMT -5
In yet another debate between Howard and Lovecraft, REH writes:
"My tastes and interests may not coincide with the preferences which you evidently feel an intelligent man ought to have, but I hardly know what we are to do about it. If we were living under your ideal intellectual-ruled government, you could doubtless have be burned at the stake as a heretic. But since we haven't reached that enviable stage of civilization, it looks like you'll have to classify me as another of the imperfections and crudities allowed to exist under a democratic form of government, and let it go at that."
-Robert E. Howard to H.P. Lovecraft, July 1934
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Post by darklordbob on Apr 11, 2020 15:40:08 GMT -5
Hey Lovecraft, you need any salve for that massive burn?
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Post by kemp on Apr 15, 2020 7:11:57 GMT -5
'IBM Launches New COBOL Training Initiative, as Elderly Programmers Answer the Call for Help There’s an urgent need for COBOL programmers to update the unemployment systems across the United States. It’s predicted that at least 17 million people have lost their jobs already. According to some surveys, up to 52 percent of workers under the age of 45 have already been impacted in some way, either by being furloughed, fired, or having their hours cut. Multiple states across the nation have urgently called for COBOL programmers to assist them. Now, IBM is getting into the action and spinning up to help connect programmers and people. Jokes about the Great Old Ones ending the entire world notwithstanding, there’s a great deal of work being done to help current programmers get up to speed on COBOL and to try and bring old coders back to the fold in an advisory capacity, if nothing else. It isn’t clear if these efforts will happen quickly enough to help the states that most need it. But the training and greater level of COBOL expertise in the larger community over time should pay its own dividends, given how much the language is still used.' www.extremetech.com/extreme/309263-ibm-launches-new-cobol-training-initiativeNow COBOL is a word I haven't heard for a long time .
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Post by kemp on Apr 15, 2020 10:10:05 GMT -5
‘Will Coronavirus Crash the Internet? With most of the world now working from home, an increased need for speed could break the whole system. And we’re fully linked around the world with the help of over 400 massive, undersea cables that stretch for thousands of miles. It’s easy to walk around with wireless devices and marvel at how internet seems to swirl in the air like a miasma, but everything we use is powered by an omnipresent overlay of wires and antennas that work the good, old fashioned way even with space-age technology. Like a theremin, this huge grid hums with increasing energy based on how close we are to it.’ www.popularmechanics.com/science/a31862370/coronavirus-covid-19-crash-internet/One thing follows onto another, and we all understand now that we can’t take this civilisation for granted. In a span of a few weeks so much can change, relatively short period of time for globalism to be gutted. Most likely it will not be coronavirus that crashes the net, or even increased traffic, but what of say an increase in earthquake activity, tectonic plate movements and other possible cataclysmic events. The net has made it possible to form a type of ‘community’ spanning continents and many nations, but what if we will all be relegated back to the physical town or village again. Sometimes it feels like we are being set up for a big fall.
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Post by kemp on Apr 18, 2020 22:14:35 GMT -5
1918 Spanish Flu historical documentary WW1 1914 - 1918 took about 40 million military and civilian lives. On the heels of the first world war the Spanish flue took tens of millions more lives, perhaps more than the great war itself, they also had some social distancing measures at that time, the second wave from September 1918 was deadlier. Much like today, many cities in the U.S. closed schools, businesses, and other public spaces during the 1918 pandemic. www.snopes.com/fact-check/second-wave-spanish-flu-wwi/Much of the reaction we see today is fueled by fear, but it is good to put things into context.
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