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Post by moonlightshadow on Aug 15, 2019 3:21:20 GMT -5
Robert E. Howard, H.P.Lovecraft and Clark Ashton Smith are the undisputed masters of weird fiction.
The number of great stories those three wrote in the 20s and 30s is staggering.
All three of them not only had a fertile and dark imagination, they also had the skills to put it into words in such a way that the result was great literature.
Do you also like all three "Weird Tales" masters or do you only like Robert E. Howard?
And in your opinion, did anybody come close to those three in the fields of weird fiction and sword & sorcery?
I think there a few writers whose best work reaches almost the same level of excellence as the great masters of "Weird Tales" but none of them could write more than a handful of truly great stories.
C.L.Moore's first two "Northwest Smith" stories are great and her "Jirel of Joiry" stories are fun but she quickly became very repetitive.
Leigh Brackett wrote some good stuff but it was modelled more on Burroughs than on the Weird Tales stuff and I prefer her movie scripts to her fiction.
Of all the sword & sorcery I read only Karl Edward Wagner's "Kane" stories excited me nearly as much as Howard's "Conan".
Fritz Leiber is highly regarded but his humouros style doesn't do much for me. Moorcock has good ideas and a taste for good sounding names but he can't write very well.
If we go back in time Edgar Allan Poe wrote some great stuff like "Arthur Gordon Pym" that gives me the creeps like the best stories of Lovecraft and Smith.
Any other great writers from the 19th century that I should check out?
What about Machen and Hawthorne?
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Post by garbanzo on Aug 15, 2019 5:41:02 GMT -5
I'm more of a comic book guy than a literature guy, but I'm slowly making my way into some of the source material you mentioned. I've recently been working through Smith's Zothique tales, and I'm really enjoying them a lot. The atmosphere is fantastic, he does a great job capturing the heavy melancholy of a dying race. Lovecraft I mostly know through comics. I think I like the idea of cosmic horror better than the execution. His stuff is a bit abstract for me - but that could be because it's difficult to translate his stories into other media. Another I know only through comics is Moorcock. I absolutely love the Elric comics. He's a fantastic character, and a nice twist on your average S&S barbarian. I agree with you on Leiber (at least what I know of his stories through the comics), the humor element doesn't sit right with me either. Also on my (massive) list of things to read is Clifford Ball's Duar stories, also from Weird Tales. Also Brak the Barbarian from John Jakes, and Lin Carter's Thongor. But now that I've finally collected the entire Savage Sword of Conan run, I find myself very busy with Conan at the moment  |
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Post by moonlightshadow on Aug 15, 2019 6:15:34 GMT -5
I'm more of a comic book guy than a literature guy, but I'm slowly making my way into some of the source material you mentioned. I've recently been working through Smith's Zothique tales, and I'm really enjoying them a lot. The atmosphere is fantastic, he does a great job capturing the heavy melancholy of a dying race. Lovecraft I mostly know through comics. I think I like the idea of cosmic horror better than the execution. His stuff is a bit abstract for me - but that could be because it's difficult to translate his stories into other media. Another I know only through comics is Moorcock. I absolutely love the Elric comics. He's a fantastic character, and a nice twist on your average S&S barbarian. I agree with you on Leiber (at least what I know of his stories through the comics), the humor element doesn't sit right with me either. Also on my (massive) list of things to read is Clifford Ball's Duar stories, also from Weird Tales. Also Brak the Barbarian from John Jakes, and Lin Carter's Thongor. But now that I've finally collected the entire Savage Sword of Conan run, I find myself very busy with Conan at the moment John Jakes is terrible and Lin Carter I could only enjoy when I was 12 years old. Elric is indeed a wonderful character, I just wish somebody who can actually write well woud re-write the first six Elric novels. Moorcock's novels sometimes feel more like a synopsis than an actual novel. That's especially true for his "Hawkmoon" novels. Great world-building, interesting settings, creatures and characters but it reads like the fan-fiction of a 17 year old. |
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Post by emerald on Aug 15, 2019 17:12:41 GMT -5
A quick scan of my shelves produced these authors, all of whom did at least some work I think can stand in the presence of HPL, REH and CAS.
Poul Anderson (The Broken Sword)
Laird Barron
Hugh B. Cave (Murgunstrumm, Stragella)
David Drake (Balefires)
Charles L. Grant (A Glow of Candles)
M. John Harrison (The Pastel City)
William Hope Hodgson
T.E.D. Klein
John Langan
Brian McNaughton (Throne of Bones)
A. Merritt (Ship of Ishtar)
Michael Shea
William Sloane (To Walk the Night)
Francis Stevens (Claimed)
Eric van Lustbader (Sunset Warrior trilogy)
Jack Vance (Dying Earth & its sequels)
H. Russell Wakefield
Jack Williamson (Darker Than You Think, Golden Blood)
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Post by moonlightshadow on Aug 16, 2019 1:45:20 GMT -5
A quick scan of my shelves produced these authors, all of whom did at least some work I think can stand in the presence of HPL, REH and CAS. Poul Anderson (The Broken Sword) Laird Barron Hugh B. Cave (Murgunstrumm, Stragella) David Drake (Balefires) Charles L. Grant (A Glow of Candles) M. John Harrison (The Pastel City) William Hope Hodgson T.E.D. Klein John Langan Brian McNaughton (Throne of Bones) A. Merritt (Ship of Ishtar) Michael Shea William Sloane (To Walk the Night) Francis Stevens (Claimed) Eric van Lustbader (Sunset Warrior trilogy) Jack Vance (Dying Earth & its sequels) H. Russell Wakefield Jack Williamson (Darker Than You Think, Golden Blood) Thanks for the recommendations. I have "Ship of Ishtar" and a couple of other books by A. Merritt, Anderson's "The Broken Sword" and Jack Vance's "Dying Earth" books. I also have a book by van Lustbader and some science fiction books by Jack Williamson. Jack Vance is well regarded but, like Fritz Leiber, his style just doesn't suit me. I like A.Merritt and Poul Anderson but I think they are in a league below Howard, Lovecraft and Smith. My favourite Poul Anderson book is "Tau Zero" and that's hard sf. Is van Lustbader really that good? It's been some time since I read a book by him, I don't even remember which one it was. I've always figured him a middle-of-the-road bestseller writer, easy to read but instantly forgettable. Maybe I should give him another chance. I remember I once started a novel by William Hope Hodgson and couldn't finish it. I still have it somewhere so I can give it another try. I've also read some science fiction by M. John Harrison and didn't like it at all. The other writers you mentioned I haven't read yet but I'll look into them. |
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Post by emerald on Aug 16, 2019 8:22:37 GMT -5
Thanks for the recommendations. I have "Ship of Ishtar" and a couple of other books by A. Merritt, Anderson's "The Broken Sword" and Jack Vance's "Dying Earth" books. I also have a book by van Lustbader and some science fiction books by Jack Williamson. Jack Vance is well regarded but, like Fritz Leiber, his style just doesn't suit me. I like A.Merritt and Poul Anderson but I think they are in a league below Howard, Lovecraft and Smith. My favourite Poul Anderson book is "Tau Zero" and that's hard sf. Is van Lustbader really that good? It's been some time since I read a book by him, I don't even remember which one it was. I've always figured him a middle-of-the-road bestseller writer, easy to read but instantly forgettable. Maybe I should give him another chance. I remember I once started a novel by William Hope Hodgson and couldn't finish it. I still have it somewhere so I can give it another try. I've also read some science fiction by M. John Harrison and didn't like it at all. The other writers you mentioned I haven't read yet but I'll look into them.
“Is van Lustbader really that good?...I’ve always figured him a middle-of-the-road bestseller writer, easy to read but instantly forgettable.” And who could blame you for that? The Sunset Warrior trilogy is the first thing he ever wrote and unlike any of the Ludlum/Trevanian bestseller-style thrillers he turned out later. Vivid sword and science adventure building to an epic climax.
“I remember I once started a novel by William Hope Hodgson and couldn't finish it.” Have you tried The House on the Borderland? HPL was a fan.
“I've also read some science fiction by M. John Harrison and didn't like it at all.” Kind of a parallel to Van Lustbader above, The Pastel City was Harrison’s first book.. And it’s a slim sword and science novel that somehow packs the weight of an epic. His later works got so meta-fictional that I couldn’t enjoy them either.
“The other writers you mentioned I haven't read yet but I'll look into them.” Yesterday’s post was hasty, so I added a few notes and qualifiers…
Laird Barron- Modern author of horror yarns. His early short stories, The Imago Sequence & Other Stories and Occultation, offer strong imaginative horror.
Hugh B. Cave (Murgunstrumm, Stragella) One of the kings of the pulp era and I believe the only author to place stories in Astounding, Adventure, Weird Tales and Black Mask. These two novellas lay down pulp melodrama horror with a vengeance. Kind of like R-rated Universal horror films on the page, if you can imagine that.
David Drake (Balefires) This volume collects the fantasy and horror short stories Drake wrote for Whispers magazine, that latter day Weird Tales of the 1970’s.
Charles L. Grant (A Glow of Candles) A handful of unforgettably powerful, often wrenchingly emotional, horror/ghost stories in this collection.
T.E.D. Klein The short stories in his collection Dark Gods are, IMO, some of the finest post-Weird Tales horror fiction. The Ceremonies is my pick as the finest example of Lovecraftian supernatural horror at novel length. Plenty disagree but I’ve yet to see anything else that comes close.
John Langan My favorite modern horror author. The Wide Carnivorous Sky is a fine collection and The Fisherman is a horror fantasy that’s likely to prove a classic.
Brian McNaughton (Throne of Bones) Cult British horror author takes HPL’s ghouls and spins a truly (truly) grotesque set of connected short stories around them. Notable CAS influence.
Michael Shea I’ve babbled about this author elsewhere and at length. His best stuff (Nifft the Lean, The Autopsy, Polyphemus, I, Said the Fly) can sit on the same shelf as HPL, REH and CAS.
William Sloane (To Walk the Night) Slow burn, carefully constructed, ultra-eerie otherworldly horror.
Francis Stevens (Claimed) Pulp era fantasy-horror. HPL was a fan.
H. Russell Wakefield. Ghost story author whose best work can stand next to M.R. James.
Jack Williamson (Darker Than You Think, Golden Blood) Williamson wrote a lot of sf and is much beloved for it, but these are two pulp era fantasies, the first from Unknown and the second from Weird Tales. Golden Blood is fun but maybe a bit thin in a pulpy way. Darker Than You Think is something of a pulp masterpiece and seems to have had broad, and unacknowledged, genre influence.
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Post by Char-Vell on Aug 16, 2019 9:16:08 GMT -5
Regarding Vance:
I struggled to finish Dying Earth, but Planet of Adventure is one of my all time favorite reads.
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Post by moonlightshadow on Aug 16, 2019 11:01:07 GMT -5
Thanks for the recommendations. I have "Ship of Ishtar" and a couple of other books by A. Merritt, Anderson's "The Broken Sword" and Jack Vance's "Dying Earth" books. I also have a book by van Lustbader and some science fiction books by Jack Williamson. Jack Vance is well regarded but, like Fritz Leiber, his style just doesn't suit me. I like A.Merritt and Poul Anderson but I think they are in a league below Howard, Lovecraft and Smith. My favourite Poul Anderson book is "Tau Zero" and that's hard sf. Is van Lustbader really that good? It's been some time since I read a book by him, I don't even remember which one it was. I've always figured him a middle-of-the-road bestseller writer, easy to read but instantly forgettable. Maybe I should give him another chance. I remember I once started a novel by William Hope Hodgson and couldn't finish it. I still have it somewhere so I can give it another try. I've also read some science fiction by M. John Harrison and didn't like it at all. The other writers you mentioned I haven't read yet but I'll look into them.
“Is van Lustbader really that good?...I’ve always figured him a middle-of-the-road bestseller writer, easy to read but instantly forgettable.” And who could blame you for that? The Sunset Warrior trilogy is the first thing he ever wrote and unlike any of the Ludlum/Trevanian bestseller-style thrillers he turned out later. Vivid sword and science adventure building to an epic climax.
“I remember I once started a novel by William Hope Hodgson and couldn't finish it.” Have you tried The House on the Borderland? HPL was a fan.
“I've also read some science fiction by M. John Harrison and didn't like it at all.” Kind of a parallel to Van Lustbader above, The Pastel City was Harrison’s first book.. And it’s a slim sword and science novel that somehow packs the weight of an epic. His later works got so meta-fictional that I couldn’t enjoy them either.
“The other writers you mentioned I haven't read yet but I'll look into them.” Yesterday’s post was hasty, so I added a few notes and qualifiers…
Laird Barron- Modern author of horror yarns. His early short stories, The Imago Sequence & Other Stories and Occultation, offer strong imaginative horror.
Hugh B. Cave (Murgunstrumm, Stragella) One of the kings of the pulp era and I believe the only author to place stories in Astounding, Adventure, Weird Tales and Black Mask. These two novellas lay down pulp melodrama horror with a vengeance. Kind of like R-rated Universal horror films on the page, if you can imagine that.
David Drake (Balefires) This volume collects the fantasy and horror short stories Drake wrote for Whispers magazine, that latter day Weird Tales of the 1970’s.
Charles L. Grant (A Glow of Candles) A handful of unforgettably powerful, often wrenchingly emotional, horror/ghost stories in this collection.
T.E.D. Klein The short stories in his collection Dark Gods are, IMO, some of the finest post-Weird Tales horror fiction. The Ceremonies is my pick as the finest example of Lovecraftian supernatural horror at novel length. Plenty disagree but I’ve yet to see anything else that comes close.
John Langan My favorite modern horror author. The Wide Carnivorous Sky is a fine collection and The Fisherman is a horror fantasy that’s likely to prove a classic.
Brian McNaughton (Throne of Bones) Cult British horror author takes HPL’s ghouls and spins a truly (truly) grotesque set of connected short stories around them. Notable CAS influence.
Michael Shea I’ve babbled about this author elsewhere and at length. His best stuff (Nifft the Lean, The Autopsy, Polyphemus, I, Said the Fly) can sit on the same shelf as HPL, REH and CAS.
William Sloane (To Walk the Night) Slow burn, carefully constructed, ultra-eerie otherworldly horror.
Francis Stevens (Claimed) Pulp era fantasy-horror. HPL was a fan.
H. Russell Wakefield. Ghost story author whose best work can stand next to M.R. James.
Jack Williamson (Darker Than You Think, Golden Blood) Williamson wrote a lot of sf and is much beloved for it, but these are two pulp era fantasies, the first from Unknown and the second from Weird Tales. Golden Blood is fun but maybe a bit thin in a pulpy way. Darker Than You Think is something of a pulp masterpiece and seems to have had broad, and unacknowledged, genre influence.
I haven't read "Eyes of the Overworld" by Vance but I've read plenty of other novels by him. They are readable but they don't excite me. Again...too much humour I guess. I've checked which Hodgson novel I read and couldn't finish, it was "The Night Land".
Hugh B. Cave sounds interesting, he is completely unknown here in Germany. It seems like non of his works has been translated.
Thanks again for the recommendations. I'll definitely check out a few of the authors mentioned.
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Post by ChrisLAdams on Aug 16, 2019 11:52:58 GMT -5
Pick up a copy of The Best of Edmond Hamilton. You won't regret it.  |
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Post by moonlightshadow on Aug 16, 2019 13:45:57 GMT -5
Pick up a copy of The Best of Edmond Hamilton. You won't regret it. I have "The Star Kings" and several "Captain Future" novels. They are fun but hardly on the same level as Howard & Co. |
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Post by ChrisLAdams on Aug 16, 2019 14:14:22 GMT -5
Pick up a copy of The Best of Edmond Hamilton. You won't regret it. I have "The Star Kings" and several "Captain Future" novels. They are fun but hardly on the same level as Howard & Co. And Star Kings and Captain Future is hardly Hamilton's best, either. |
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Post by themirrorthief on Aug 16, 2019 15:34:47 GMT -5
there are literally dozens of great old pulp writers...the problem is that they all wrote great stories and also they all wrote stuff just for a few dollars...thing about Howard, lovecraft, smith, and a few elite others is that the vast majority of their output was worth reading and more
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Post by Von K on Aug 16, 2019 15:59:57 GMT -5
The earlier version of Poul Anderson's Broken Sword* has more raw vitality than the (also excellent) later version. The later one he re-edited smoothing out the prose a tad and removing some of the original imagery and metaphors. Imho, the original shows a more direct Howardian influence.
Some good kenning rune poetry in both versions too. But he never wrote anything quite like this early novel again.
*Available as no. 32 in the Golancz Fantasy Masterworks series.
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Post by ChrisLAdams on Aug 19, 2019 7:55:38 GMT -5
Also on my (massive) list of things to read is Clifford Ball's Duar stories, also from Weird Tales... Clifford is on my list, as well. I picked up a copy of The Thief of Forth classic-sized (sold out now) from DMR Books a few months ago. I've had other obligations and so haven't been able to get into it yet; really looking forward to it, though. It sounds fascinating from DMR's description. It's also available from Amazon.  |
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Post by ChrisLAdams on Aug 19, 2019 8:26:22 GMT -5
By the way, ABE Books has several economical copies of The Best of Edmond Hamilton which is just a wonderful collection of shorts (where Ed really shined, IMO). His novels were mostly Ok by me, but many of his short stories are very good. I think many might find In the World's Dusk reminiscent of Clark Ashton Smith's Zothique cycle, while The Monster-God of Mamurth might be considered Lovecraftian. My own favorite from the collection, tho, is probably Requiem--the poignant tale of the planet Earth's final days as seen thru the eyes of the captain of a vessel sent there to watch its demise and televise it to the galaxy. Recently, a buddy of mine and I were discussing Hamilton, and he mentioned an old Superman LP vinyl he had as a kid with a story about Kandor, the miniature city in the comics which was the capital city of Krypton. We compared the mini city in a jar to Edmond Hamilton's Fessenden's Worlds (where a scientist creates a galaxy in a lab and then mucks with the evolving planets' inhabitants) and, knowing that Ed Hamilton wrote Superman stories, wondered if Fessenden's Worlds didn't have some influence on Kandor (whose name is awfully close to Hamilton's Kaldar: World of Antares). Hmmm. Makes one wonder.     |
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