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Post by johnnypt on Feb 24, 2017 20:31:55 GMT -5
I'm surprised the Mucker never got made into either a silent film or a mid 30s serial. It's a story deserving of a wider reputation, I have to believe the name is part of what keeps it away from popular exposure
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Post by deuce on Mar 5, 2017 18:41:57 GMT -5
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Post by almuric on Mar 11, 2017 11:05:22 GMT -5
A while back I mentioned Brian Wood's John Carter: The End. The other day I read through the second issue at my local comic shop.
Hoo-boy.
The art is --- brace yourselves! --- the same kind of scratchy, sketchy indie art style which makes every character look sickly that we complained about on his Conan run. And it doesn't feel like anything ERB ever wrote. The language is far too contemporary. "Warzone", "bioweapon". I wouldn't be surprised if someone used a smart phone or called in a drone strike. It was the second issue, so I couldn't figure out why a very aged John Carter and Dejah Thoris (is Wood unaware that Barsoomians usually live a thousand years or that Carter is immortal?) are living on Saturn's moon Titan. Nor do I care.
Is it too much to ask that Wood have some basic familiarity with the franchise he's writing for?
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Post by mrp on Mar 11, 2017 15:44:04 GMT -5
A while back I mentioned Brian Wood's John Carter: The End. The other day I read through the second issue at my local comic shop.
Hoo-boy.
The art is --- brace yourselves! --- the same kind of scratchy, sketchy indie art style which makes every character look sickly that we complained about on his Conan run. And it doesn't feel like anything ERB ever wrote. The language is far too contemporary. "Warzone", "bioweapon". I wouldn't be surprised if someone used a smart phone or called in a drone strike. It was the second issue, so I couldn't figure out why a very aged John Carter and Dejah Thoris (is Wood unaware that Barsoomians usually live a thousand years or that Carter is immortal?) are living on Saturn's moon Titan. Nor do I care.
Is it too much to ask that Wood have some basic familiarity with the franchise he's writing for?
The basic premise of all "The End" stuff is that the characters are at the end of their careers/lifespan and it is their final story. Marvel started these type of series a decade ago(with stuff like Fantastic Four: The End, X-Men The End and Marvel Universe: The End-the latter by Starlin) and other publishers have picked up on them. The premise itself is at odds with the mythology of Dejah and Carter as established by ERB, so why would you expect a series based on a premise that doesn't fit the mythos to actually adhere to the established mythos? -M |
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Post by johnnypt on Mar 12, 2017 7:21:32 GMT -5
"We need a good writer...but somebody who can blatantly ignore just about everything that's come before..."
"I think I know someone..."
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Post by almuric on Mar 12, 2017 10:02:48 GMT -5
A while back I mentioned Brian Wood's John Carter: The End. The other day I read through the second issue at my local comic shop.
Hoo-boy.
The art is --- brace yourselves! --- the same kind of scratchy, sketchy indie art style which makes every character look sickly that we complained about on his Conan run. And it doesn't feel like anything ERB ever wrote. The language is far too contemporary. "Warzone", "bioweapon". I wouldn't be surprised if someone used a smart phone or called in a drone strike. It was the second issue, so I couldn't figure out why a very aged John Carter and Dejah Thoris (is Wood unaware that Barsoomians usually live a thousand years or that Carter is immortal?) are living on Saturn's moon Titan. Nor do I care.
Is it too much to ask that Wood have some basic familiarity with the franchise he's writing for?
The basic premise of all "The End" stuff is that the characters are at the end of their careers/lifespan and it is their final story. Marvel started these type of series a decade ago(with stuff like Fantastic Four: The End, X-Men The End and Marvel Universe: The End-the latter by Starlin) and other publishers have picked up on them. The premise itself is at odds with the mythology of Dejah and Carter as established by ERB, so why would you expect a series based on a premise that doesn't fit the mythos to actually adhere to the established mythos? -M I guess I shouldn't expect much from Wood. But what's especially baffling is that Carter is living on Titan, a world that ERB never even mentioned in his work. It just feels so random. It's like he skimmed the Wikipedia entry and maybe saw the trailer for the movie. At best. |
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Post by mrp on Mar 12, 2017 13:03:33 GMT -5
These The End series are like giant what if scenarios, they are not really meant to be true to the mythos, so expecting them top be is like expecting a dog to meow than be disappointed when it barks instead because that's what it does. Wood being the autor is irrelevant to the premise and execution of how these The End series are done. They are not meant to be true to the mythos they are meant to be wild what if scenarios. If you expected differently, that's on you, not on the book.
-M
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Post by terryallenuk on Mar 12, 2017 13:40:14 GMT -5
Watched one of the "unofficial" Tarzan films where they couldn't use his name ........... Carry on up the Jungle , awesome LOL ! Terry Scott made a superb " Tarzan !!!!!
Terry
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Post by Jason Aiken on Mar 12, 2017 13:58:12 GMT -5
These The End series are like giant what if scenarios, they are not really meant to be true to the mythos, so expecting them top be is like expecting a dog to meow than be disappointed when it barks instead because that's what it does. Wood being the autor is irrelevant to the premise and execution of how these The End series are done. They are not meant to be true to the mythos they are meant to be wild what if scenarios. If you expected differently, that's on you, not on the book. -M I disagree. I read John Carter: The End #1 and found it to be complete garbage. It being a "What If" or possible future doesn't give it a pass for being a shitty, cookie-cutter concept by a name writer just collecting a paycheck and not caring about the characters. Don't try to put lipstick on a pig. Even if it's a What If scenario, you still have to be true to the core of the characters. That's what made the Marvel series (What If? and The End, respectively) work and not work. You could tell what writers knew the characters and what writers were just mailing it in. Wood needs to stay the fuck away from anything pulp related and stick to his indy books. |
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Post by mrp on Mar 12, 2017 14:13:43 GMT -5
These The End series are like giant what if scenarios, they are not really meant to be true to the mythos, so expecting them top be is like expecting a dog to meow than be disappointed when it barks instead because that's what it does. Wood being the autor is irrelevant to the premise and execution of how these The End series are done. They are not meant to be true to the mythos they are meant to be wild what if scenarios. If you expected differently, that's on you, not on the book. -M I disagree. I read John Carter: The End #1 and found it to be complete garbage. It being a "What If" or possible future doesn't give it a pass for being a shitty, cookie-cutter concept by a name writer just collecting a paycheck and not caring about the characters. Don't try to put lipstick on a pig. I am not saying it was any good, I didn't even bother to look at it once I knew it was a "The End" series because they are all complete garbage as far as am concerned, but if you go into a The End series expecting it to be true to the mythos, then that is your mistake because none of them are. I am not saying anything to excuse it being garbage, I am saying you should have expected it to be garbage to begin with because it was a The End series and if you expected something different, then that is on you. There's enough advance info out there you should never be buying any comic blind, and if you don't take the time to know what you are buying before you do, that's not on anybody but you. If you don't know what The End books are, you should have known form the solicitation or the preview, or looking at any other The End style book before you plunked your money down. If you go in expecting something to be what it isn't and the info is there to tell you what it actually is, it's on you for not being an informed consumer and doing any due diligence before wasting your money. Dynamite uses the John Carter brand to get people to do exactly what you did, buy something sight unseen expecting it to be something else, but it's a buyer beware market so it's on you to know better. -M |
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Post by Jason Aiken on Mar 12, 2017 14:19:50 GMT -5
It being an End book shouldn't cancel out the original source material. You have to use that as a foundation for your story. That's how it's supposed to work. Wood doesn't care and is just doing whatever he feels like. And thankfully I didn't actually buy The End #1. I know enough to read something with his name on it off the rack....Byrne-stealing.
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Post by mrp on Mar 12, 2017 20:01:08 GMT -5
The End books are are twists and extrapolations of the source materials, the wilder the what if, the better int he eyes of some of the publishers doing them. They don't care about the source material, they care about the brand and the point of these The End stuff is to stretch the brand beyond the source material. The End stories are not intended to be faithful to the source material, and if that is what you are expecting, then you are going to be disappointed by it every time because that's not what they do. You may think it should be faithful, but that doesn't change that they aren't and haven't been and that is you expecting something form a product that it never had any intention of delivering because that is not what the product set out to do. You can have any expectation of the product you want, but that's not going to change what the publisher delivers and when the publisher tells you this is what the product is and this is what we are delivering and you ignore it and don't alter your expectations when they tell you what it is, then as I have said that's on you. If you want these The End series to be something, great, but it's not what they have been, are, or will be, so your wanting it to be something else has no bearing at all on what it is. IF you don't like these type of series, don't buy them, but as long as enough people buy them and make it profitable for Dynamite and other publishers to make them simply because they are John Carter, whether it is good John Carter or bad John Cater, then they have no financial incentive to make a better product. People's dollars speak louder than any words they post on a message board or social media. If the dollars keep coming in for products like this, they will keep making them the way they are, because their responsibility is to their bottom line not to your contentment as a John Carter fan.
I've said this on every comic forum I have ever been a part of, people get the kind of comics their buying habits deserve.
If people continue to buy bad comics, they will continue to get bad comics because that is what is making the publisher money. These The End series sell well enough for them to keep making them. Brian Wood sells well enough because he has a fanbase that travels from title to tile with him so he keeps getting work. Until these things don't sell well enough, that's what publishers like Dynamite will keep churning out.
And the only way to break the cycle is by being an informed consumer and knowing what to expect from certain types of product before any money is spent on them and to tell your local retailer you won't be buying them so they don't order them on the expectation you will. Sales numbers measure how many copies retailers buy to sell to end customers, not how many end customers buy, so it is how many ordered by retailers that measures the success of the books, and retailers need to hear from their customers before they place the orders to have any chance of breaking a sales cycle on books like this.
Comics are now a niche market and have to play by niche market rules, and customers of niche products cannot approach them the same whey the do mass market products because of it. Comics are now printed to preorders through Diamond. Preoders are determined by retailers' orders. Retailers orders are based on the previous buying habits of their customer base unless they are told differently by their customer base. The success or profitability of a book like John Carter The End is determined before the book is ever printed because of the way the niche market works. As long as preorders for any product with the John Carter brand remain consistent, products like John Carter The End will be made and they remain consistent when the customer base doesn't inform itself and act accordingly.
But most fans don't, they just buy the stuff and bitch about it and wonder why stuff like this keeps coming out and Dynamite keeps having the money form stuff like this roll in which is all the incentive they need to keep making more stuff like it, and no copmplaint on a message board is going to change that.
-M
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Post by deuce on Mar 13, 2017 9:32:25 GMT -5
I started reading Beyond 30 (also known as the Lost Continent). I'm wondering if this was an influence on Jack Kirby's Kamandi and the Neutral Zone in Star Trek TNG. I'm three chapters in and it's quite good. The opening had a more modern feel than the Tarzan, Pellucidar, and Barsoom books I've read. . It's definitely a kind of story he didn't do too many time. Especially surprising since it was so early in his career, I guess he didn't get much reaction to it so he ended stick with more familiar stories(to put it mildly) I spent years tracking this down and finally found a copy of the Ace edition with the Frazetta cover. I would say that ERB very much wanted to write more tales of a post-apocalyptic nature -- The Moon Men is an excellent example -- but the market wasn't that strong for them. Really, the market never really has been, not in the US. BTW, ERB.com has a great comic adaptation going on. Subscriptions to the webcomics are hella cheap. www.edgarriceburroughs.com/comics/  |
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Post by johnnypt on Mar 13, 2017 9:44:41 GMT -5
The End books are are twists and extrapolations of the source materials, the wilder the what if, the better int he eyes of some of the publishers doing them. They don't care about the source material, they care about the brand and the point of these The End stuff is to stretch the brand beyond the source material. The End stories are not intended to be faithful to the source material, and if that is what you are expecting, then you are going to be disappointed by it every time because that's not what they do. You may think it should be faithful, but that doesn't change that they aren't and haven't been and that is you expecting something form a product that it never had any intention of delivering because that is not what the product set out to do. You can have any expectation of the product you want, but that's not going to change what the publisher delivers and when the publisher tells you this is what the product is and this is what we are delivering and you ignore it and don't alter your expectations when they tell you what it is, then as I have said that's on you. If you want these The End series to be something, great, but it's not what they have been, are, or will be, so your wanting it to be something else has no bearing at all on what it is. IF you don't like these type of series, don't buy them, but as long as enough people buy them and make it profitable for Dynamite and other publishers to make them simply because they are John Carter, whether it is good John Carter or bad John Cater, then they have no financial incentive to make a better product. People's dollars speak louder than any words they post on a message board or social media. If the dollars keep coming in for products like this, they will keep making them the way they are, because their responsibility is to their bottom line not to your contentment as a John Carter fan. I've said this on every comic forum I have ever been a part of, people get the kind of comics their buying habits deserve. If people continue to buy bad comics, they will continue to get bad comics because that is what is making the publisher money. These The End series sell well enough for them to keep making them. Brian Wood sells well enough because he has a fanbase that travels from title to tile with him so he keeps getting work. Until these things don't sell well enough, that's what publishers like Dynamite will keep churning out. And the only way to break the cycle is by being an informed consumer and knowing what to expect from certain types of product before any money is spent on them and to tell your local retailer you won't be buying them so they don't order them on the expectation you will. Sales numbers measure how many copies retailers buy to sell to end customers, not how many end customers buy, so it is how many ordered by retailers that measures the success of the books, and retailers need to hear from their customers before they place the orders to have any chance of breaking a sales cycle on books like this. Comics are now a niche market and have to play by niche market rules, and customers of niche products cannot approach them the same whey the do mass market products because of it. Comics are now printed to preorders through Diamond. Preoders are determined by retailers' orders. Retailers orders are based on the previous buying habits of their customer base unless they are told differently by their customer base. The success or profitability of a book like John Carter The End is determined before the book is ever printed because of the way the niche market works. As long as preorders for any product with the John Carter brand remain consistent, products like John Carter The End will be made and they remain consistent when the customer base doesn't inform itself and act accordingly. But most fans don't, they just buy the stuff and bitch about it and wonder why stuff like this keeps coming out and Dynamite keeps having the money form stuff like this roll in which is all the incentive they need to keep making more stuff like it, and no copmplaint on a message board is going to change that. -M
And with its 7300+ orders on the Diamond chart, that's right around where the series had usually been selling. So I guess unless it completely drops through the floor, they won't see a problem because to them, there is no problem. It's selling where they probably thought it would, so that's the bottom line. As Deuce mentioned on the other thread, Wood has his MO. If people want to read it and buy it, there will be more of it.
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Post by ChrisLAdams on Mar 13, 2017 15:37:47 GMT -5
. It's definitely a kind of story he didn't do too many time. Especially surprising since it was so early in his career, I guess he didn't get much reaction to it so he ended stick with more familiar stories(to put it mildly) I spent years tracking this down and finally found a copy of the Ace edition with the Frazetta cover. I would say that ERB very much wanted to write more tales of a post-apocalyptic nature -- The Moon Men is an excellent example -- but the market wasn't that strong for them. Really, the market never really has been, not in the US. BTW, ERB.com has a great comic adaptation going on. Subscriptions to the webcomics are hella cheap. www.edgarriceburroughs.com/comics/Beyond Thirty is one of my favorite ERBs and one reason I'd love to go to the 2017 DUM DUM in Coldwater, MI this August 3-5. I posted about it a while back, wondering if anyone was going. I'm thinking about making the pilgrimage. Jim Sullos, president of ERB INC, will be speaking. Bob Zeuschner, author of the new Burroughs Bibliography will be there, along with many others. Oddly enough, Beyond Thirty (or The Lost Continent as it is also known) is the focal point of the event. I read with interest they are having a special limited edition of Beyond Thirty created especially for the DUM DUM. What Burroughs fan wouldn't like THAT in your collection! Here are some particulars from the site:
www.erbzine.com/dumdum/"BEYOND THIRTY, written by Edgar Rice Burroughs in 1915, and partially written at Sunnyside Farm in Coldwater, will be the overall theme of the Dum Dum. BEYOND THIRTY memorabilia will be included in the registration packets.
We are now able to announce with pleasure, the attendance to the Coldwater Dum Dum by Edgar Rice Burroughs, Inc., president, Jim Sullos along with the ERB team of Cathy and Tyler Wilbanks. Jim will update the convention attendees with the latest projects and events emerging from the halls of Edgar Rice Burroughs, Inc. A warm greeting to Jim and crew.
Also attending will be Bob Zeuschner and his wife, Lindy. Bob is the author of the detailed bibliography, "Edgar Rice Burroughs, The Bibliography". Twenty years of additional research after the publication of "Edgar Rice Burroughs, The Exhaustive Scholar's and Collector's Descriptive Bibliography", has resulted in the latest publication. Welcome to the Zeuschner family. "
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