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Post by monolith on Mar 20, 2021 16:28:02 GMT -5
REH Fight Club
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Post by boot on Mar 20, 2021 20:50:32 GMT -5
Compare Jason Mamoa swinging his sword around, flipping and twirling it with skill. I get the point. They were trying to show how competent Conan was with a weapon.
But, that's not Conan.
Watch the first few minutes of the Daniel Craig James Bond film, Casino Royale. Focus on the fight--the style of the fight. See how Bond is feral and not pretty. He's rough and dangerous and will do anything to survive in a fight.
That's the way Conan should be portrayed. Not with style, but with grit.
For me, Schwarzenegger keyed in on some of that grit but still not as much as I'd like to see.
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Post by kemp on Mar 20, 2021 21:36:07 GMT -5
Apart from some fancy twirls and poses, Arnie didn’t do too much of a bad job in the fight scenes, quickly dispatching his opponents, especially in CtB. Some of the recent choreography in fantasy series like The Witcher show a better understanding for the medieval fighting styles. Of course it is understandable that certain scenes at times will need to be a little ‘over the top’ for effect.
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Post by kemp on Mar 20, 2021 21:39:53 GMT -5
Sword fighting is about fighting the opponent, not overly long back and forth sparring, more about eliminating an enemy in the shortest amount of time possible, the longer you took your time in being fancy, twirling and all that, the more chances you had of being killed of course.
Read the system of combat on western sword martial arts by late medieval fight masters such as Talhoffer and Liechtenauer, we are talking about being brutal, skilled and quick, a defensive move needs to be quickly turned into an offense aimed at taking out the opponent. Outside the scope of this thread, but covered on the HEMA thread on this forum. An interesting subject. I would think that those involved in the fight choreography for a Conan Netflix series would have done their homework. At least I hope that would be the case.
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Post by Monster on Mar 20, 2021 23:23:37 GMT -5
Sword fighting is about fighting the opponent, not overly long back and forth sparring, more about eliminating an enemy in the shortest amount of time possible, the longer you took your time in being fancy, twirling and all that, the more chances you had of being killed of course. Read the system of combat on western sword martial arts by late medieval fight masters such as Talhoffer and Liechtenauer, we are talking about being brutal, skilled and quick, a defensive move needs to be quickly turned into an offense aimed at taking out the opponent. Outside the scope of this thread, but covered on the HEMA thread on this forum. An interesting subject. I would think that those involved in the fight choreography for a Conan Netflix series would have done their homework. At least I hope that would be the case.
Yeah, swords often did not meet each other in actual sword combat. They were precious commodities that were protected at all costs! The clanking of swords is mostly Hollywood.
Also, I liken what you are saying in terms of build and strength to what we refer to as "farm strong/tough" in these here parts. Constant work from sun up to sun down builds a strong core and extremely fit body. Conan would be strong from an abundance of activity not resistance training.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2021 5:09:33 GMT -5
I think his fighting style should be instinctive, natural and unorthodox. Although I think in the series he should through experience, adopt civilised fighting styles that work and simply, abandon those that don't.
A little like what REH says to in the Whole Wide World:
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Post by kemp on Mar 21, 2021 7:57:10 GMT -5
Powerful scene, makes you almost believe that Vincent D'Onofrio could have pulled off playing Conan himself. Yes, natural fighting instinct coupled with the more direct practical elements of civilised fighting styles of the Hyborian Age. Agree with Hun on that one.
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Post by kemp on Mar 21, 2021 8:12:52 GMT -5
Sword fighting is about fighting the opponent, not overly long back and forth sparring, more about eliminating an enemy in the shortest amount of time possible, the longer you took your time in being fancy, twirling and all that, the more chances you had of being killed of course. Read the system of combat on western sword martial arts by late medieval fight masters such as Talhoffer and Liechtenauer, we are talking about being brutal, skilled and quick, a defensive move needs to be quickly turned into an offense aimed at taking out the opponent. Outside the scope of this thread, but covered on the HEMA thread on this forum. An interesting subject. I would think that those involved in the fight choreography for a Conan Netflix series would have done their homework. At least I hope that would be the case.
Yeah, swords often did not meet each other in actual sword combat. They were precious commodities that were protected at all costs! The clanking of swords is mostly Hollywood.
Also, I liken what you are saying in terms of build and strength to what we refer to as "farm strong/tough" in these here parts. Constant work from sun up to sun down builds a strong core and extremely fit body. Conan would be strong from an abundance of activity not resistance training.
Very true. Some of the movies show sword edge on sword edge, but it was very common to block edge on attacks with the flat of the blade. It's like getting two very big and extremely sharp kitchen knives and smashing the edges of the knives against each other for some time, all else being equal in heat treat and steel, soon you would start to end end up with very chewed edges. In the hard and fast melee not everything can be controlled, but there would have been some attempt to protect or at least extend the life of the sword blade which could easily become a disposable item. I have never heard of the term "farm strong/tough", but I like it, a kind of pre industrial physique built up from constantly being on the move. That would be true for the farmer, blacksmith or a warrior like Conan.
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Post by lordyam on Apr 1, 2021 17:43:11 GMT -5
I've been thinking about the show and diversity. While I understand wanting to be true to Howard's vision certain things would not fly today, and which can be very easily fixed while still keeping what Howard wanted.
Item 1: The Picts
When you get down to it the Picts are stereotypical native americans, and while Howard might have had a lot of nuance behind the scenes......many people aren't necessarily going to know about that. More importantly, studies HAVE shown that stereotypical portrayals of Native Americans have been linked to Native American Youth having lower self esteem. Given how high suicide is among that demographic saying that "oh it's not a big deal" just comes off as heartless and insensitive.
The thing about the Native Americans was that they did have civilization and culture.....but could also be downright violent and scary at times (Ratcliffe from the real Pocohantas story was lured into a trap and skinned alive, the Comanche could also be violent). One of the pastiche books meant to promote the Age of Conan MMO actually managed to do a good job of giving the Picts dignity while still keeping them as violent. Basically an Aquilonian diplomat is trying to build better relations, and the Picts, while skeptical are willing to hear the guy out. His daughter meets the Main character (a Pict named Kral) and they form a friendship. Unfortunately the brother of the diplomat (in addition to being a racist, also wants the horde of treasure the Bear Clan supposedly has) manipulates things into launching an attack on the Bear Clan, killing all but the main character and two others (and setting off a whole quest that leads Kral to the ends of the world but that's another story.) The Picts react to this blatant act of mass murder and treachery by rallying and going to war, which results in a lot of Aquilonians dying.
In this case, the Picts are absolutely justified. They had a truce, and the Aquilonians broke it and slaughtered non combatants. Another pastiche draws explicit mention to the fact that the Aquilonians swindled the Picts with unfair treaties, while Tim Truman introduced the character of Nai in order to give a more nuanced portrayal.
Essentially, the Picts don't need to be dances with wolves noble savages. They should NOT be violent subhuman savages who only know how to rape and pillage.
Item 2: Black Colossus
One of the things far right racists have used throughout history is the "dark skinned hordes coming to rape our white women". The whole complains about refugees in Germany is largely an extension of that nonsense. Considering that the story has Conan's forces (mostly white Hyborians) against Shemites, Stygians, and Kushites led by Thugra Khotan people could easily draw the connection.
That said there's another possible fix. First, make it so that many of the shemite tribes fled north rather than serve Thugra Khotan. Secondly, have them try and join the heroes at Shamla Pass. When Thespides tries to have them turned away Conan hears them out and lets them join (as Taraniach pointed out this is similar to the Zaheemi tribe joining in the original book). Third, have the tribes play a key role in Thugra's defeat. This would at least defuse some of the issues and provide a counter argument.
Item 3: Conan and Women
In Devil in Iron there's a scene where Conan learns Octavia isn't really into him.....and he just laughs and forcibly kisses her until she relents. That's......frankly misogynistic. One of the go to excuses rapists have used to justify their actions is "oh they don't really mean it when they say no", while another cliche is the guy badgers the woman until she agrees to sleep with him (see most rom coms, as well as Conan's actions to Valeria in Red Nails.) In addition, Me Too has revealed a LOT of abuses of power, where women were coerced into giving sexual favors in order to advance (which reflects badly on Conan asking Nerfertari to fuck him in exchange for his help).
Frost Giant's daughter has already had people complain about Conan trying to rape Atali; now there are certain circumstances (the whole badger game, Atali's supernatural mojo was affecting him, and Conan was extremely enraged) but not everyone is going to get that, or they'll think those are the excuses of sexist men.
I get not wanting to compromise Howard's vision. But to say that "oh those sissies should just suck it up" is not the right way to go about it. Some of their concerns ARE legitimate.
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Post by boot on Apr 1, 2021 20:11:52 GMT -5
First off, I hate diversity BS, and that's what it is, straight BS. Tell a good story. Use the characters types that the story demands for that story to be told well.
Now...Howard's stories always seemed very cosmopolitan to me. There are people from all over in most of his tales--so much so that I've often wondered how easy it would be to travel during the Hyborian Age. Actually, I guess we get a good look at travel in The Hour of the Dragon, don't we.
I think, if the new show is going to be anything like the Howard tales, then all shapes and sizes and colors will be needed, from across the world.
I also liked what was said in the commentary to the 1982 original Conan flick. Thulsa Doom, played by a black man, was given long, straight hair and blue eyes, as if his blood line had traced back to Atlantean times and has since died out or inter-mingled with other races so much that pure blood characteristics like this are no longer seen.
Remember what Roddenberry did on the original pilot for Star Trek, the episode called The Cage--that was edited into the series' only two-parter, The Menagerie. To make the Talosians seem very alien, Roddenberry hired older, mature women to play the parts, then he gave them a male aspect. The effect was the aliens came across very "alien".
There would be room for that kind of thing in a Howardian Conan series, for little people, actors with missing limbs, and all sorts with interesting appearances.
I think the cast should definitely be multi-national, not because of some BS diversity quota but because it will probably serve the story.
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Post by lordyam on Apr 1, 2021 20:23:00 GMT -5
That’s frankly not a good attitude. You’re essentially telling poc who don’t want to be portrayed as stereotypes to eat shit and die.
In the tales POC are usually violent savages or subservient (the Picts in general are crude stereotypes of native Americans.)
Wanting POC characters who are actually people rather than crude stereotypes is not unreasonable. With native Americans in particular it’s important considering both the high suicide rates and proven connection between stereotypical portrayal and lack of self esteem.
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Post by johnnypt on Apr 1, 2021 20:26:32 GMT -5
Focus on telling the story and everything will work itself out. There are going to be people complaining bitterly no matter what, you won’t be able to please them, so don’t. I’m sure whoever gets the job will know there are certain things that will need to be adjusted for a variety of reasons, most importantly the way stories were told then is different compared to now. Get that approach right, the casting and all that will follow along.
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Post by lordyam on Apr 1, 2021 20:28:18 GMT -5
Except a lot of Howard fans react badly to any change, and fail to consider that a lot of the times the critics have a point
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Post by boot on Apr 1, 2021 20:47:51 GMT -5
When I watch a film about mobsters, I want to see the mobsters act like mobsters. Put a guy's head in a vice and pop his eye out (Casino).
The same goes for Conan. Conan's not a good guy. He's a pirate. He's a marauder. When Belit's corsairs pillaged villages on the coast, does "pillaged" mean that they just stole from those people? No. You can assume that all atrocities of all kinds happened. Horrible stuff.
In that way, Conan is an anti-hero.
But, in his world--through his eyes, he's living to his own code. He's a barbarian.
Now, I'm not advocating that we see Conan rape some poor chick on the tube, but my hope is that the show won't lose that rough, gritty edge. There's nothing wrong with a scene as there is in Howard's story The Vale of Lost Women where he decides to rescue a white woman from the Black Kingdom savages only because she is white. If you transplant that scene into a cowboy movie where a white farmer's daughter is taken by the savage Indians, we don't think anything about (or, we shouldn't think) it if the farmer and his daughter have a prejudice against the Indians. That's a color of their world, and that's the way the story should be told. The same goes for Conan. His world should be represented as Howard described it in the stories.
Remember the old ROME HBO series? One of the things that made that show so good (and you should watch it, if you haven't) was that the show pulled no punches with this type of thing. Slaves were treated as slaves. The same thing goes for the Spartacus series--my goodness, the atrocities that were applied to those slaves.
But, that's they way it was. Removing that removes some of the legitimacy and integrity of the tale. The same can be said for Conan's stories.
Howard was not gratuitous with this unflattering aspect of Conan's intentions in his stories, and I think that the Conan series--if they're going to do it "right"--should have just a touch of it and not a lot of it. If Belit's corsairs sack a village, then we should probably see the fire and the village coming down, with hints of corsairs chasing people through the mud streets as the scene fades out--just enough to give us the idea of what's happening. Howard didn't have hard core scenes like that (that we see on shows like Vikings), so we don't need it in the shows. Howard did describe some gore and gritty battles, so I would expect to see that in the show.
The show's best foot forward is telling the tales the way Howard told them. It's a disservice to tell the Conan tales through the lens of today's pro-PC zeitgeist.
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Post by boot on Apr 1, 2021 20:58:58 GMT -5
One of the things I really dig about the 2011 Conan remake film is that they went with the same idea that I described above about Thulsa Doom. I remember the sound that the Pict made in the beginning of the film. No human today could make that sound! And, look at Marique, Khalar Zym, and Remo--look at all the cast. They all took me to a time of pre-history, when the world wasn't like it is today. I mean, what race is this guy (Remo).
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