Thurian Age Religions according to Robert E. Howard (&

[almuric]

Thanks for posting those poems, Deuce. I never realized just how many Zukala poems there were before.

[Von K]

Some very interesting sleuthing there Deuce. Thanks!

[deuce]

Thanks guys! Glad you're enjoying my ramblings.

[kullagain]

Apr 12, 2016 16:43:12 GMT -5 deuce said:

Mar 31, 2016 23:29:18 GMT -5 kullagain said:

I do still wonder about the "refugee migration of the elder Mu race" I speculated earlier in the thread, if it was a sound theory. 

I have my theories (backed up with evidence) regarding Thurian Age deities and Mu, but I prefer to leave that until all the deities have been presented. I need to start a "Mu and Lemuria" thread.

BTW, there doesn't seem to be any close connection between the people of Mu and the "Elder Race" mentioned in the Kull stories.

One comment I wanted to make on Howard from your own post you quoted now that I see it again is, and I am planning to prepare a thread on it soon so maybe its appropriate to discuss it there, but I do think Howard had a "sunnier" disposition than is ascribed to him. Not to disagree about Howard parallel with Zukala, but perhaps, Zukala had a "sunnier side" to him also, since he was in charge of rebirth also. As is quoted often, gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirths.  

I won't deny that REH had a humorous side. Just read his Sailor Costigan or Breck Elkins yarns (or some of his letters). That doesn't invalidate that fact that Howard was moody and could often take a dark, grim view. "Tears of a clown" and all that. Zukala appears to be fairly dark and grim. Definitely capricious and occasionally cruel, at the least.

By all means, start a thread on the many moods of REH.

Hey deuce! Haven’t been active on the boards recently but glad to see you’ve added more to this rich topic.



My matching of Mu = elder race comes from Joe Marek’s angelfire article while discussing the aftermath of Mu’s sinking:


“After the sinking of Mu, their settlements on the mainland were soon overthrown by wandering barbarians. On the northwest quarter of the continent these nomads, the Thurians, settled and took control of this area from the Elder Race of Mu.”


He doesn’t really present evidence to this equation, but I think it’s supported by the elder race possessing such unique features compared to the rest of the humans in the Thurian age. Mu in this lore was isolated by water like Atlantis, except to greater lengths I believe (Atlantis scholars usually placed it in and Europe while Mu is placed much father from Europe between Asia and North America, which likely provided REH his base for his own versions).

A very isolated continent would impede interracial breeding, probably to the point of taboo, and foster the preservation and perhaps even the creation of such unique human features.


(As a side note, GRRM imitates this breeding dynamic in his ASOIAF series where the Valyrians, a people of an Atlantis type land, possess genes of silver hair and violet eyes so weak in reproduction that they began to inbreed to preserve their genetics. Perhaps that’s why the elder race was so scant to extinct—their genes finally phased out completely. This would be analogous to Brule’s forecast in TSK of the serpent men dying out due to breeding with snakes).


Also, Mu was a land that sank before it was cool, and clearly a race so old to precede Thurian civilisation would befit the name elder race.

I don’t know if you want to defer Mu discussion to the other thread you’re planning but wanted to share this in the meantime.


Speaking of other threads, I myself need to make my own thread on the moods and universe views of REH. Hopefully it will be soon. ;-)

[kullagain]

Apr 1, 2016 12:03:43 GMT -5 deuce said:

Well, John R. Fultz got back with me...

The reason why I got "god of death and rebirth" stuck in my head in regard to Zukala is due to a few reasons....

snip

So, the rambling above is in service of explaining why I persisted in thinking (without access to "Isle of the Eons") that REH had called Zukala a "god of death and rebirth" (not that "disposer of souls" is far from it).

My apologies, in my previous post on the subtopic of Zukala, I had assumed you had identified him as a disposer of souls and the god of death and rebirth, and spoke equipped with that in my regard. 

But even so, as you said, disposer is not necessarily so distinct. 

[deuce]

Apr 18, 2016 16:25:26 GMT -5 kullagain said:

My matching of Mu = elder race comes from Joe Marek’s angelfire article while discussing the aftermath of Mu’s sinking:


“After the sinking of Mu, their settlements on the mainland were soon overthrown by wandering barbarians. On the northwest quarter of the continent these nomads, the Thurians, settled and took control of this area from the Elder Race of Mu.”

I really don't want to get into Marek's stuff on this thread.

He doesn’t really present evidence to this equation, but I think it’s supported by the elder race possessing such unique features compared to the rest of the humans in the Thurian age. Mu in this lore was isolated by water like Atlantis, except to greater lengths I believe (Atlantis scholars usually placed it in and Europe while Mu is placed much father from Europe between Asia and North America, which likely provided REH his base for his own versions).

(...)

Also, Mu was a land that sank before it was cool, and clearly a race so old to precede Thurian civilisation would befit the name elder race.

I don’t know if you want to defer Mu discussion to the other thread you’re planning but wanted to share this in the meantime.

We have a fairly good idea about REH's sources on Mu and Lemuria. All of that needs to go on a "Mu and Lemuria" thread. Who knows? I may start that today.

Glad you're enjoying the new stuff.

[deuce]

More rantings from Rotath (TCotGS):

He cursed all men living and dead, and all the generations unborn for a million centuries to come, naming Vramma and Jaggta-noga and Kamma and Kulthas.

Rotath really had some issues.

A mysterious list of entities. Let's see what sense we can make of them.

Vramma: Off the bat, linguistically, the "vr" part of it is unusual. You don't see it out there much in real languages. One source could be "vril":

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vril

One can never discount the influence of Theosophy upon REH (and HPL and CAS). Blavatsky was all about Bulwer-Lytton's vril.

Another parallel or source might be the "Raama" from The Screaming Skull of Silence. I forgot/didn't realize that Roy Thomas exposed me to "Vramma" in CtB#38 (my first brush with anything Howardian). Check this out: 

www.marvunapp.com/Appendix4/raamavalusia.htm

Roy had Gimil-Ishbi give a spell to Conan that invoked "Rama", Vramma and Kulthas. My call at this point is that "I don't know" and this might be an example of a literary placeholder (as per Kullagain).

Jaggta-noga: Roy Thomas brought J-N into the Hyborian Age with CtB#5:

www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/jaggtanoga.htm

I will say that this is one of the more linguistically interesting Howardian names. I wish RT had unleashed BWS on this entity a year later when he was more mature.

 


Kamma: Maybe just a "poetic placeholder", maybe not.

Kulthas: Interesting. There have been a lot of theories about this one. Some (Chris Jarocha-Ernst) associated this entity with REH's "Xulthas". Others (Marek) wonders if this might be code for "Cthulhu". I've thought both things before reading the opinions of either. For various reasons (which I'll get into later), I go with the "Cthulhu" interpretation.

 

[deuce]

Mar 2, 2016 23:37:23 GMT -5 deuce said:

In this poem by REH we once again see Zukala's role as a "disposer of souls". His "jest" here is much like that of the boy's fate in "Zukala's Hour". The girl sounds a bit like Salome in AWSBB.


ZUKALA’S JEST


The gods brought a Soul before Zukala,

A Soul that had been wandering in Space;

“A babe is to be born at the coming of the morn,

“And this Soul is chosen for the place.”

Down from his throne looked Zukala

With his strange eyes a-glitter from his face.

“The babe shall be a girl,” said Zukala,

“With every tooth a pearl,” said Zukala;

“A woman strangely fair with wondrous golden hair

“Men’s souls shall she ensnare,” said Zukala.

“She shall raise mankind to wrath,” said Zukala;

“Blighted love shall haunt her path,” said Zukala;

“Men for her their souls will sell for her destiny is fell,

“And her feet are set toward Hell,” said Zukala.



Then spake the Soul to Zukala,

To Zukala on his throne of gleaming jade:

“Nay, my lord, but is it just, dooming to a life of lust,

“That you just fashioned from the dust, lord Zukala?

“Thus my destined trail is laid ere I am in flesh arrayed,

“Then shall men my sins upbraid, not Zukala.”

From his throne of gleaming jade spake Zukala:

“Human forms were made to fade,” said Zukala;

“But the soul must stand the test

“And the gods must have their jest

“Else Creation held no zest,” laughed Zukala.

Long and loud from his throne laughed Zukala.

New Zukala pic...