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Post by almuric on Apr 27, 2021 11:08:19 GMT -5
It happened again. I was browsing around, looking for stuff to watch when I stumbled across yet another trailer for yet another awful-looking Fantasy movie. You know the kind: Eastern European crumbling castle that's supposed to the heart of a mighty kingdom, the randomly-dressed characters who are all supposedly of the same culture, the bad acting and the general depressing, low-grade vibe. Why does this keep happening? There are plenty of low-budget Horror movies and Science-Fiction films that transcend their limitations and become classics, but with Fantasy? Not so much. Why is Fantasy stuck in this rut? And how can it get out of it?
1.) They try to do too much and accomplish too little. I've seen these kind of films waste too much effort on terrible CGI dragons or trying to recreate the battle scenes from Lord of the Rings or 300 without the resources to make them look good. And what do they accomplish? Nothing, except annoying the viewer. 2014's Arthur and Merlin mostly succeeds because in addition to good writing and acting, they don't try to do anything that's beyond their ability. A few years back I saw the 1953 Western The Naked Spur, starring James Stewart. Great movie, shot almost entirely on location with a small cast and a script which got an Oscar nomination. They didn't need to recreate 1868 in lavish detail for the viewer to believe in the characters and their situation, which leads to the next point.
2.) They don't take advantage of inexpensive worldbuilding. So many of these movies fail to create convincing settings. Look at Game of Thrones. Leaving aside that GRRM might never finish or how the producers of the TV show fumbled the ball, think back to the recurring phrases the series used: "Winter is coming", "And now his watch is ended", "dark wings, dark words". None of that cost anything. And it helped create a world in the minds of the viewers. Take the recent mini-budgeted SF movie Prospect. It does an amazing job in subtle worldbuilding. No info-dumps required. Even if the audience doesn't quite understand everything at first glance, it's apparent that the creators do. A couple of throwaway lines can help create the illusion of a world and its history and they don't cost anything. Say that the people of the Realm worship the Five Gods. How does that effect other aspects of the world? Well, maybe the symbol of their faith is pentagonal. They make a five-part movement when they pray. Bells at their temples ring five times. Again, this costs very little and it makes the world feel more real.
3.) They cannibalize other Fantasy movies for tropes instead of looking to other genres. You know what I'd love to see? A Sword and Sorcery movie that takes its cues from Spaghetti Westerns. Or maybe a Horror movie which takes place in a Fantasy setting. How about a gladiator movie where the gladiators have to fight orcs and manticores in the arena? Instead they feel like retreads of retreads. If the genre is ever to break free, it needs to expand its horizons. Don't just give us the 659th iteration of Quest For the Item of Absolute Power to Save the Realm. Or if you do, find a different angle. Make us care about the Realm. Make us care about the people on the Quest.
4.) They don't have a consistent look. You know what I'm talking about. One guy has Roman armor, one guy is dressed in High Middle Ages plate and the other is wearing metal rings glued to a leather vest. If you're doing the default Medieval fantasy, pick an era and stick with it. There's plenty of resources about how people dressed and acted in the real Middle Ages. Also, there's plenty of people in the SCA who know this stuff. Hire one as a consultant. Arthur and Merlin used Dark Ages reenactors as extras and it helped create a more authentic looking background for the movie. This goes back to the first point about using your resources wisely.
None of this is impossible to achieve. All it takes is better filmmakers willing to do more.
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Post by Lonewolf on Apr 27, 2021 12:12:21 GMT -5
I completely agree with all your points, and you hit the nail on the head with "trying to do too much", they need to concentrate on telling a good story as oppose to trying to create "an epic" on a zero budget. My favorite film genre is "Sword and Sorcery", so I'm probably more forgiving when it comes to the low budget/no effort movies, but I also wish the genre got more attention and effort.
Some "newer" movies that I though were ok: "Curse of the Dragon Slayer" - (I think they were going for Lord of the Rings, but it comes across more like a D&D campaign), low budget, but the main actors have charisma, and it seemed like everyone involved at least tried to make a good movie.
"The Head Hunter" - (Sword & Sorcery/Horror)
The Last Warrior" - Don't know if it qualifies as low budget?, but a well filmed, cool action movie.
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Post by kemp on Apr 28, 2021 8:45:24 GMT -5
Even the big budget fantasy films suck these days, and most of those belong to the Harry Potter and Hunger Games type clones which I never cared much for anyways. No one is touching heroic fantasy all that much.
Maybe I will give Head Hunter a chance, always attracts my attention when I see a movie described as sword & sorcery/horror.
For low budget, sometimes, to get some decent you have to go really low budget, as in small independent studios and the better fan films.
Deliverer was kind of cool, a unique take. Brotherhood Studios said that it took them a day and half to film it.
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Post by robp on Apr 29, 2021 3:39:46 GMT -5
You raise some great points - and Conan stories such as Rogues in the House and the God in the Bowl could surely be made on a small budget. The problem is the same is in the book word - every new fantasy output has to be a 500 page Vol 1 in a trilogy, featuring an angst ridden teen who has secret magic powers. Or a sub-D&D quest with the usual line up of character types. Yet the field is so much richer than that.
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Post by Char-Vell on Apr 29, 2021 5:03:06 GMT -5
You raise some great points - and Conan stories such as Rogues in the House and the God in the Bowl could surely be made on a small budget. The problem is the same is in the book word - every new fantasy output has to be a 500 page Vol 1 in a trilogy, featuring an angst ridden teen who has secret magic powers. Or a sub-D&D quest with the usual line up of character types. Yet the field is so much richer than that. Mmm. Rogues in the House! That would be great. How do we want our Thak? Stop motion? CGI? guy in a suit?
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Post by almuric on Apr 29, 2021 11:25:13 GMT -5
I see that Curse of the Dragon Slayer was produced, under the name SAGA: The Shadow Cabal, by Arrowstorm Entertainment out of Utah. Their main claim to fame is a five-part fantasy series called Mythica. Now, just looking at their YouTube channel I can see that plot-wise it's pretty much D&D, but done seriously by competent people who cared about what they were making. The budgets are around the $100,000 mark and cinematography and direction looks good and even the acting, usually the bane of these sorts of films, isn't too bad either. The creature CGI isn't the greatest, but I guess that's to be expected on such a small budget. I've found a lot of raves for it online and I'm going to check the series out for myself.
It's not Howardian Fantasy, but there is nothing preventing some enterprising indie filmmakers from learning the lessons of what Arrowstorm accomplished an applying them to their own project.
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Post by Lonewolf on Apr 29, 2021 12:35:57 GMT -5
I see that Curse of the Dragon Slayer was produced, under the name SAGA: The Shadow Cabal, by Arrowstorm Entertainment out of Utah. Their main claim to fame is a five-part fantasy series called Mythica. Now, just looking at their YouTube channel I can see that plot-wise it's pretty much D&D, but done seriously by competent people who cared about what they were making. The budgets are around the $100,000 mark and cinematography and direction looks good and even the acting, usually the bane of these sorts of films, isn't too bad either. The creature CGI isn't the greatest, but I guess that's to be expected on such a small budget. I've found a lot of raves for it online and I'm going to check the series out for myself.
It's not Howardian Fantasy, but there is nothing preventing some enterprising indie filmmakers from learning the lessons of what Arrowstorm accomplished an applying them to their own project.
Yes , the Arrowstorm stuff is pretty good, seems like there is actually some creativity and passion involved. I own the Mythica 5 movie/DVD set , have only watched the first two in the series, they are ok. Likable main characters, the acting and cinematography is good, only complaint is that they are kinda slow, (a lot of walking to the next destination, camping, etc. scenes). My kids downloaded a free movie streaming service onto our TV called Tubi, it's basically 99% "B" movies, has the Mythica series as well as a bunch of other cheese.
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Post by johnnypt on Apr 29, 2021 12:44:54 GMT -5
Love Tubi, there's so much there of all variety and quality.
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Post by robp on May 2, 2021 3:36:25 GMT -5
You raise some great points - and Conan stories such as Rogues in the House and the God in the Bowl could surely be made on a small budget. The problem is the same is in the book word - every new fantasy output has to be a 500 page Vol 1 in a trilogy, featuring an angst ridden teen who has secret magic powers. Or a sub-D&D quest with the usual line up of character types. Yet the field is so much richer than that. Mmm. Rogues in the House! That would be great. How do we want our Thak? Stop motion? CGI? guy in a suit? I do have a soft spot for good stop motion lol. Anything but the Conan the Destroyer approach!
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Post by monolith on May 2, 2021 4:09:16 GMT -5
The Thoth Amon/Thak bargain bin Halloween rubber mask was a real special effects low point.
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Post by thedarkman on May 2, 2021 6:38:20 GMT -5
The Thoth Amon/Thak bargain bin Halloween rubber mask was a real special effects low point. I was ok with the mask, but some better lighting and subtle shadowing could have made it so much better. What got me was the stupid swinging round and round of Conan by his ankles, like an Olympic hammer-throw; utterly stupid and slapstick. It made me literally groan out loud...
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Post by johnnypt on May 2, 2021 8:24:39 GMT -5
The Thoth Amon/Thak bargain bin Halloween rubber mask was a real special effects low point. I was ok with the mask, but some better lighting and subtle shadowing could have made it so much better. What got me was the stupid swinging round and round of Conan by his ankles, like an Olympic hammer-throw; utterly stupid and slapstick. It made me literally groan out loud... From the same man who brought us 20,000 Under the Sea, the Vikings and Barrabas...and Che!, Mandingo and the Jazz Singer, maybe it's understandable after all...
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Post by almuric on May 2, 2021 20:46:24 GMT -5
You raise some great points - and Conan stories such as Rogues in the House and the God in the Bowl could surely be made on a small budget. The problem is the same is in the book word - every new fantasy output has to be a 500 page Vol 1 in a trilogy, featuring an angst ridden teen who has secret magic powers. Or a sub-D&D quest with the usual line up of character types. Yet the field is so much richer than that. Mmm. Rogues in the House! That would be great. How do we want our Thak? Stop motion? CGI? guy in a suit?
Definitely want to avoid the rubber-mask look, but CGI would limit how much the actors could interact with him. Makeup has come a long way and it's possible to do a decent job without a huge budget. You only need one Thak, after all. Plus it lets the guy wearing it show some expression and his fight with Conan can be shot without major FX. Stop-motion might work better for the man-serpent-thing in Bowl.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2021 8:05:59 GMT -5
I see that Curse of the Dragon Slayer was produced, under the name SAGA: The Shadow Cabal, by Arrowstorm Entertainment out of Utah. Their main claim to fame is a five-part fantasy series called Mythica. Now, just looking at their YouTube channel I can see that plot-wise it's pretty much D&D, but done seriously by competent people who cared about what they were making. The budgets are around the $100,000 mark and cinematography and direction looks good and even the acting, usually the bane of these sorts of films, isn't too bad either. The creature CGI isn't the greatest, but I guess that's to be expected on such a small budget. I've found a lot of raves for it online and I'm going to check the series out for myself.
It's not Howardian Fantasy, but there is nothing preventing some enterprising indie filmmakers from learning the lessons of what Arrowstorm accomplished an applying them to their own project.
The CGI was the weakest part of the movie and really should have avoided it, but it was a really enjoyable movie with good acting. The actor who played the orc was especially good from what I remember. The movie used to be on netflix so it was easy to find, but if you can track it down somewhere else give it a shot.
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Post by robp on May 7, 2021 7:29:44 GMT -5
Mmm. Rogues in the House! That would be great. How do we want our Thak? Stop motion? CGI? guy in a suit?
Definitely want to avoid the rubber-mask look, but CGI would limit how much the actors could interact with him. Makeup has come a long way and it's possible to do a decent job without a huge budget. You only need one Thak, after all. Plus it lets the guy wearing it show some expression and his fight with Conan can be shot without major FX. Stop-motion might work better for the man-serpent-thing in Bowl.
Yeah, that's a good point. Shades of Harryhausen's Medusa, perhaps?
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