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Post by robp on Apr 27, 2022 6:10:42 GMT -5
The not laying with a man unless he defeats her was always problematic. I mean what happens if he kills her during the fight or she gets badly disfigured. I mean imagine some bloodied woman, wounds here and there, maybe a crushed leg or lost a hand slurring how you can lay with her now, I would be 'you crazy bitch, you just tried to kill me, but I think what you desperately need now is a healer and not a screw '. Yet she got her powers through being raped. Wonder how that would work for a Conan type character? I guess all this talk about costumes and the like depends on if you want a gritty S&S film or a super-hero movie with super-power origin stories and "iconic" outfits |
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Post by Char-Vell on Apr 27, 2022 8:11:12 GMT -5
The not laying with a man unless he defeats her was always problematic. I mean what happens if he kills her during the fight or she gets badly disfigured. I mean imagine some bloodied woman, wounds here and there, maybe a crushed leg or lost a hand slurring how you can lay with her now, I would be 'you crazy bitch, you just tried to kill me, but I think what you desperately need now is a healer and not a screw '. I guess all this talk about costumes and the like depends on if you want a gritty S&S film or a super-hero movie with super-power origin stories and "iconic" outfits Did Phillip Jose Farmer write something like that? Because it sounds like something Phillip Jose Farmer would write. |
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Post by zarono on Apr 27, 2022 9:54:41 GMT -5
Yet she got her powers through being raped. Wonder how that would work for a Conan type character? I guess all this talk about costumes and the like depends on if you want a gritty S&S film or a super-hero movie with super-power origin stories and "iconic" outfits Did Phillip Jose Farmer write something like that? Because it sounds like something Phillip Jose Farmer would write. I think it was in PJF's "A Feast Unknown" an interesting take on Tarzan and Doc Savage  ( I originally had the Essex house cover but changed it becasue of the mature guidelines )   |
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Post by zarono on Apr 27, 2022 10:03:37 GMT -5
The not laying with a man unless he defeats her was always problematic. I mean what happens if he kills her during the fight or she gets badly disfigured. I mean imagine some bloodied woman, wounds here and there, maybe a crushed leg or lost a hand slurring how you can lay with her now, I would be 'you crazy bitch, you just tried to kill me, but I think what you desperately need now is a healer and not a screw '. Yet she got her powers through being raped. Wonder how that would work for a Conan type character? I guess all this talk about costumes and the like depends on if you want a gritty S&S film or a super-hero movie with super-power origin stories and "iconic" outfits I would prefer the superhero version because it sets her apart from other Hyborian Age warrior woman characters like Valeria who acquire their abilities through training and experience. A lot like Captain America or Spiderman she gets her abilities from unnatural sources but it doesn't reduce the appeal of the character. |
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Post by robp on Apr 27, 2022 10:48:53 GMT -5
Yet she got her powers through being raped. Wonder how that would work for a Conan type character? I guess all this talk about costumes and the like depends on if you want a gritty S&S film or a super-hero movie with super-power origin stories and "iconic" outfits I would prefer the superhero version because it sets her apart from other Hyborian Age warrior woman characters like Valeria who acquire their abilities through training and experience. A lot like Captain America or Spiderman she gets her abilities from unnatural sources but it doesn't reduce the appeal of the character. It does to me. I prefer my S&S gritty, I suppose. There's dozens of super-hero movies, or Xena-type stuff. |
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Post by Jason Aiken on Apr 27, 2022 11:43:22 GMT -5
Did Phillip Jose Farmer write something like that? Because it sounds like something Phillip Jose Farmer would write. I think it was in PJF's "A Feast Unknown" an interesting take on Tarzan and Doc Savage ( I originally had the Essex house cover but changed it becasue of the mature guidelines ) Philip José Farmer never wrote anything about someone getting powers or abilities from being raped. I've read all of his pulp output and haven't seen any. As for a Feast Unknown, I believe one of the Folk (mangani) rapes the Pat Savage pastice character in the series. Lord Grandrith (the Tarzan pastiche) rescues her and comments that the Folk's penises are very short. Grandrith himself is raped at one point. The worst is a native who rapes Grandrith's dog and uses a knife to make it easier. All of the over the top violence and sex are side effects of an immortality serum and goes back to an ancient prehistoric organization of immortals and Jack the Ripper ties into it, too. A Feast Unknown is nuts and not for the faint of heart. The follow up novels Lord of the Trees and the Mad Goblin are just straight pastiche, though and remove the over the top mix of violence and sex that is in A Feast Unknown. I believe Kurt Busiek's Janissa the Widowmaker from the Dark Horse Conan run might be who you are thinking of. She was a Red Sonja-like character who obtained her fighting abilities by fighting off demons in a sorcerous time loop, who would rape her after she was defeated. Once she learned to beat one demon, the sorceress would add a second, and so on and so on, loop after loop. It caused quite a stir in the Dark Horse letter pages. |
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Post by zarono on Apr 27, 2022 12:12:49 GMT -5
I would prefer the superhero version because it sets her apart from other Hyborian Age warrior woman characters like Valeria who acquire their abilities through training and experience. A lot like Captain America or Spiderman she gets her abilities from unnatural sources but it doesn't reduce the appeal of the character. It does to me. I prefer my S&S gritty, I suppose. There's dozens of super-hero movies, or Xena-type stuff. I can go gritty or lighthearted as long as I find it entertaining. Even though she kills a lot of people, to my mind a character like Red Sonja seems more suited to the less grim side of S&S and to lean more into high fantasy (despite the dark quality of her origin, maybe alter that a bit to just revenge for her family if it was a pg-13 movie). But if it was a truly grimdark Red Sonja movie I would want an actress like Kelly Reilly for the lead, not for looks or athletic ability but for the ruthless and intimidating quality she shows as Beth on Yellowstone (she'd also make an excellent REH version of Belit for the same reasons).  |
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Post by Jason Aiken on Apr 27, 2022 20:10:02 GMT -5
But if it was a truly grimdark Red Sonja movie I would want an actress like Kelly Reilly for the lead, not for looks or athletic ability but for the ruthless and intimidating quality she shows as Beth on Yellowstone (she'd also make an excellent REH version of Belit for the same reasons). Yeah, she would be awesome, love her on Yellowstone. I heard she was good in Brittania, too. She actually has a body that could pull of Red Sonja from what I saw during the outdoor trough scene on Yellowstone. But if you get an actress of her caliber I don't think the chainmail bikini would be fitting. I'd probably go for the more practical armor. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2022 2:23:35 GMT -5
Anyone know if they have managed to extend the visa beyond April the 22nd?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2022 2:30:56 GMT -5
CONAN does defeat her in "War of the Wizards", yet refuse to lay with her, mad cause of her jealous spitting on Belit she doesnt know is dead. SHE even share a tear in the end of the story. Yeah, Roy Thomas' last issue (1st run) on CtB 115:    |
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Post by BlackHeart on Apr 28, 2022 4:35:27 GMT -5
Love the episode 🤗
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Post by hyrkanian on Apr 28, 2022 8:18:29 GMT -5
The not laying with a man unless he defeats her was always problematic. I mean what happens if he kills her during the fight or she gets badly disfigured. I mean imagine some bloodied woman, wounds here and there, maybe a crushed leg or lost a hand slurring how you can lay with her now, I would be 'you crazy bitch, you just tried to kill me, but I think what you desperately need now is a healer and not a screw '. I guess they were expecting the guy to do JUST enough to beat her  The not laying with a man unless he defeats her was always problematic. I mean what happens if he kills her during the fight or she gets badly disfigured. I mean imagine some bloodied woman, wounds here and there, maybe a crushed leg or lost a hand slurring how you can lay with her now, I would be 'you crazy bitch, you just tried to kill me, but I think what you desperately need now is a healer and not a screw '. I suppose the idea was that the type of man who could defeat her and be her lover wouldn't be the type who would actually carve her up into bloody chunks and somehow get turned on by it. Something more along the "worthy" type who would stop his blade just short of the deathblow or whatever. Yes, that was the idea - such a powerful warrior that he will be able to defeat her without hurting her; only such a man would be worthy to be with Sonja.
  I suppose the idea was that the type of man who could defeat her and be her lover wouldn't be the type who would actually carve her up into bloody chunks and somehow get turned on by it. Something more along the "worthy" type who would stop his blade just short of the deathblow or whatever. I don't know if it still applies to the modern versions of the character but originally she had no fighting skills of her own, she got supernatural levels of fighting abilities from a goddess to get revenge. Looking at it that way it doesn't even really matter that she wears a chainmail bikini into a fight because magic protects her and makes her a killing machine (the gods might even have engineered the chainmail bikini situation to make her life more interesting). I get you, but Red Sonja is a she devil of a fighter, I mean, you would be extremely lucky to survive her in an encounter let alone control the fight. I always imagined fighting Sonja to be a damned bloody and extremely tough affair. For me she was in the same league as Conan when I read SSOC, Valeria was different, definitely not in the same fighting class as Red, and the supernatural fighting ability was her edge. Good luck to any guy trying to best her. Exactly. That is why ordinary people / warriors from the Hyborian world could not defeat her, but only gods (Kaleval) and monsters with superpowers (Bakht) or superheroes from the 20th century (Wolverine).
“What if Wolverine battled Conan the barbarian” episode with Red Sonja is one of the dumbest and most idiotic comics Marvel has ever published.
Here's why.
Of course, the idea of a man winning a special woman by defeating her is not particularly original, as it is known from many epics, legends and fairy tales in which there are many such examples - sometimes the hero competes with the woman he wants to win (princess / the strongest warrior of the tribe / daughter of the chief) in different types of fighting, sometimes in running and sometimes competes with her in outwitting/outsmarting.
CONAN does defeat her in "War of the Wizards", yet refuse to lay with her, mad cause of her jealous spitting on Belit she doesnt know is dead. SHE even share a tear in the end of the story. Yeah, Roy Thomas' last issue (1st run) on CtB 115:
Yes, Conan won, but only after Sonja slipped on a wet bar floor.
That episode was epic, one of the best Conan/Sonja ever. Thomas in his prime and Big John/Chan duo great as always.
Conan accepted the wizard's offer to trade Sonja's life in exchange for revive of Belit, but he repented just in time.
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Post by zarono on Apr 28, 2022 8:56:17 GMT -5
But if it was a truly grimdark Red Sonja movie I would want an actress like Kelly Reilly for the lead, not for looks or athletic ability but for the ruthless and intimidating quality she shows as Beth on Yellowstone (she'd also make an excellent REH version of Belit for the same reasons). Yeah, she would be awesome, love her on Yellowstone. I heard she was good in Brittania, too. She actually has a body that could pull of Red Sonja from what I saw during the outdoor trough scene on Yellowstone. But if you get an actress of her caliber I don't think the chainmail bikini would be fitting. I'd probably go for the more practical armor. Yep Kelly Reilly would work for a more Game of Thrones like version of an RS movie, she looked damn good in costumes in Brittania but wearing the metal bikini wouldn't be an option other than for a scene or two at best, maybe a flashback if the script was set when she was older. I guess it would be all about what type of story they want to tell, young RS comic origin story you'd want somebody like Scarlet Johannsen in the first Avengers movie, young, athletic, and comfortable wearing the costume. less about acting and more about looks.  |
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Post by hyrkanian on Apr 29, 2022 8:31:58 GMT -5
Yet she got her powers through being raped. Wonder how that would work for a Conan type character? I guess all this talk about costumes and the like depends on if you want a gritty S&S film or a super-hero movie with super-power origin stories and "iconic" outfits I would prefer the superhero version because it sets her apart from other Hyborian Age warrior woman characters like Valeria who acquire their abilities through training and experience. A lot like Captain America or Spiderman she gets her abilities from unnatural sources but it doesn't reduce the appeal of the character. Exactly.
Red Sonja origin (rape, divine intervention and the vow) is what distinguishes her from other warrior women in comics and movies. Before the massacre of her family and the rape, Sonja wanted to become a warrior. After the tragedy, Red Goddess offered her to become her champion – the greatest female warrior and one of the best in the Hyborian world, to avenge herself and her family and to be invincible and nearly invulnerable, with only one condition - vow of chastity.  For a young girl left alone in a cruel Hyborian world, who has never experienced love from a man, and who was brutally raped and beaten by gang of men, it was not difficult to decide and to accept the offer. It means she can keep her fighting power and skills if she refuses to have any lover. So it is impossible for Sonja to lose the fight or to get rape again. But at the same time she can’t have a loving man, not children, not family, so over time, her blessing became her curse too — because when she meets a man she loves she couldn’t be with him unless he has defeated her, and that is almost impossible because the Goddess gave her such powers precisely because she wanted to tie Sonja to herself forever. If she decides to make love to a man without fight, or let him win, because she falls in love with him, then she will lose her fighting skills.
Or even worse - her lover will die. In the rare cases when Sonja violated her oath by falling in love and being with some man she liked without losing to him in the fight, the Goddess did not take revenge on her by depriving her of her fighting powers, but much more cruelly - by the death of the man Sonja loves. In Mark Russell’s run Sonja’s bodyguard died because of that.
Maybe the vow to the goddess should not be interpreted that it only means the prohibition of sex (because the Goddess said: -You must never allow yourself to be loved by another man), but in a broader sense - that by swearing an oath to the Goddess, Sonja chose to give all her love, respect, faith, devotion to her only and forever, and there is no place for any man with whom Sonja can share that. That is why the punishment for violating that oath is so cruel.
Sonja is a kind of Hyborian vestal.
A comment from RS female fan:
Of course, Sonja might have asked the Goddess to set her free, but in rare situations when she thought about it, she eventually gave up because she didn't want to give up her independence and powers, or because she was afraid that if she lost her fighting powers she wouldn't be able to protect her loved ones, that is, that her future family - husband and children will be massacred, as well as her parents and brothers were.
A great example of that is brilliant episode by Christos Gage, Dynamite RS no 27
That is why Sonja is no ordinary woman warrior (like Xena, Axa, Belit or Chriss de Valnor for example),
she is unique female character in world of comics – gorgeous, blessed, powerful and unbeatable, but at the same time tragic, cursed, enslaved and lonely.
I should recommend a couple of great articles on this subject:
Red Sonja: Feminist Icon or Misogynist Fantasy
In Defence of Red Sonja - The Vow
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Post by hyrkanian on Apr 29, 2022 8:46:54 GMT -5
The not laying with a man unless he defeats her was always problematic. I mean what happens if he kills her during the fight or she gets badly disfigured. I mean imagine some bloodied woman, wounds here and there, maybe a crushed leg or lost a hand slurring how you can lay with her now, I would be 'you crazy bitch, you just tried to kill me, but I think what you desperately need now is a healer and not a screw '. Sonja did not gain her powers through rape, but through an agreement with the Goddess.
And the deal was offered to her because in Sonja the Goddess discovered/recognized her future champion.
Many girls of the Hyborian world experienced the same fate as Sonja, their families were killed and they were raped, but the Goddess chose only Sonja, because as a child she wanted to be a warrior, and because after the tragedy she experienced, the Goddess recognized in her the desire for survival and the desire for revenge. The Goddess did not address the same offer to other girls, who were just broken, scared, humble, lifeless and listless. Among them, she never looked for her chosen hero and avatar.
Sonja's father Ivor was a warrior-former soldier/mercenary and Sonja wanted to be a warrior from an early age, she watched her father train her brothers to fight, she secretly practiced with the sword... So, Sonja had a warrior's blood /gene and the spirit of a fighter in her, but she didn't have training, because her father and mother were against her daughter learning fighting/warrior skills, and she didn't have the physical strength needed to fight men or to defend herself.
So, Sonja was not an ordinary peasant girl who works in the farm, or an tavern girl serving drinks, or a spoiled princess, so that the Goddess turned her into something quite the opposite with the touch of a magic wand – into warrior, but the daughter of a warrior who wanted to be a warrior, and even more so after the tragedy she experienced, in order to take revenge on those who harmed her and destroyed her family.
The Goddess made it possible for her by inhaling what she lacked – great power, strength and fighting skills. The tragedy and the blood from which Sonja rose, were a test she passed without breaking but only getting stronger.
But it came at a price.
My point is - if Sonja is shown in the movie without her legendary costume and without her origin - what will be left of her? Just red hair?
Anyone know if they have managed to extend the visa beyond April the 22nd? There is no news about that. |
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