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Post by kemp on Dec 19, 2022 17:05:51 GMT -5
Another problem in the comics is that in Red Sonja's origin story from the 3rd issue of Kull and Barbarians her family live in an area that is nowhere near the Vilayet Sea. They live... '...in Hyrkania to the east, across the burning deserts and beyond the shining Sea of Vilayet'. Her father is a retired Hyrkanian Mercenary called Ivor (sounds more Slavic than Turko-Mongol). They wanna recruit Ivor for a campaign against Khitai (Hyborian Age China) - in the comics Sonja's family must live confusingly well beyond the cultural influence of the Hyperboreans and other potential candidates for Proto-Slavic peoples of the Hyborian Age. The only way I can kinda explain it, is that her father is simply a mercenary from the west (of Proto-Slavic origin) that lived among the Hyrkanians east of the Vilayet, not too far from the border of Khitai. I suppose it's the same type of extrapolation that we would we do if Roy Thomas had decided to make Red Sonja a Khitan, after all, ancient Scythian ( Indo European ) remains/burials have been found as far east as China, albeit easier to do in the case of the Hyrkanians. |
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Post by boot on Dec 19, 2022 17:29:07 GMT -5
Another problem in the comics is that in Red Sonja's origin story from the 3rd issue of Kull and Barbarians her family live in an area that is nowhere near the Vilayet Sea. They live... '...in Hyrkania to the east, across the burning deserts and beyond the shining Sea of Vilayet'.It could be that, when Conan encounters her (I think it's in Makkalet, right? ), that she has ventured to that city state from where she grew up. I'm hazy on the first meeting. I think Conan meets her in Makkalet, then the two of them go to Padishaw--Padishaw being where she's living (can't remember if she said she grew up there). |
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Post by boot on Dec 19, 2022 17:31:15 GMT -5
The Sonja from Dynamite is all over the place, even featuring multiple Sonjas--she is supported by her god and is reincarnated to do the god's bidding.
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Post by hyrkanian on Dec 20, 2022 9:18:00 GMT -5
There was a interesting discussion on this topic in the RS Reddit sub not long ago :
Fan videos about Hyrkanians:
Hyrkania and Sonja from official handbook of Conan universe:
Rogatino/Рогатино in Russia
Тhey should have shot the film here, not in Bulgaria
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Post by kemp on Dec 20, 2022 17:53:44 GMT -5
There was a interesting discussion on this topic in the RS Reddit sub not long ago :
Fan videos about Hyrkanians:
Makes sense for the Hyrkanians to be one of the major players in the slave trade of the Hyborian age. We can kinda tweak that Red Sonya is partly descended from people assimilated into the various Hyrkanian tribal nations, much in the same way that the Ottomans took in European women and children, and I have read that they even made slave raids in distant Iceland. |
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Post by kemp on Dec 20, 2022 18:23:47 GMT -5
With the heavy overuse of CGI in many productions these days it almost doesn't make a difference where they shoot these things now, Bulgaria just happened to be a place where you can pay the movie extras peanuts.
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Post by hyrkanian on Dec 23, 2022 10:21:16 GMT -5
I suppose if you really wanted to portray Sonja the right way for a Hyrkanian you would make her look Eurasian, and not like a Vanir or a type of Hyborian. As Hun noted though, there is some variation amongst the Steppe peoples when it comes to their appearance, some may look European, many in the east will have Mongol features, and then you get a whole plethora of people with various Eurasian features. I don’t know, maybe they thought of a certain red haired Russian Slav when they gave her that look from the comics, also the vague relationship to the non Hyrkanian Sonya of Rogatino from REH’s yarns, an eastern Slav by origin. Our favourite chainmail bikini clad heroine owes more to that white Slavic image than to REH’s Turkic/Mongol Hyrkanians. Of course, as with many things there is some overlap. Interesting to note that the highest frequency of red hair in Europe comes from Ireland, Wales, Scotland and in the middle of European Russia.  Reading the comics way back when I always found it kind of bizarre that Red Sonja looked the way she did, but was descibed as Hyrkanian rather than say Vanir or some Hyborian. The Sonja name is popular in both Slavic and Scandinavian nations. I don't think Roy Thomas gave it much thought, a little inspired by REH's Red Sonya of Rogatino, who was of Slavic origin, but for some reason made his Red Sonja a Hyrkanian, although wanting to keep her tall red haired white in appearance, maybe he just associated the Hyrkanians with Russia/Eurasia, that east of Hyborian ( European nations ), say in the same way that Russia occupies that interesting niche between Europe and China, but it does create confusion as the Turkic peoples are also part of the Eurasian landscape. True, there are many modern Turkic speaking peoples that look like Red Sonja, but it's not how I envisioned REH's Hyrkanians, direct ancestors of the Turkic Hun and Mongol peoples as stated above.
The Turks are an Asian tribe by origin, and the old writings here in the Balkans mention them as such, blackish-brown, with slightly slanted eyes, not too tall and broad-shouldered. Black hair and dark eyes were also a feature. Modern Turks look like they do today because they are half mixed with Serbs, Bulgarians, Greeks and Bosnians. There was something called "blood tribute", where young and able-bodied boys were taken to Turkey to be trained as janissaries, and masses of families, even entire towns, were moved to Turkey to be guardians of springs, masons, blacksmiths... In the case of Red Sonja, Thomas was just going for a variant of the proto Russian-Mongolian state where his Sonja retained all the features of Howard's original Sonja of Rogatino. His choice was not illogical, if I may say - as with Howard, there is a historical counterpart. Yes, agree about the Turks as per Turkey, modern day Turkey spans a small part of Balkan Europe and covers all of the Anatolian penninsula, centuries of association with Europeans, pre Turkic Anatolians, Armenians and Arabs would differentiate them from the more central Asian Turkic people, say Turkmens. Myself, I tend towards REH's description of the Hyrkanians from his Hyborian Age essay ...'The Hyrkanians are dark and generally tall and slender, though a squat slant-eyed type is more and more common among them, resulting from admixture with a curious race of intelligent, though stunted aborigines, conquered by them among the mountains east of the Vilayet, on their westward drift.' There is some assertion by a component of Conan and REH aficionados that Hyperborea was based on medieval Russia, specifically the Novgorod Republic, there may be elements, I personally don't hold that view in absolutist terms, but I have known diehards that thought that way. After all, Slavs are an Indo European people, so Hyborian age quasi European counterparts makes sense. Some of them also claimed Olgerd Vladislav, a kind of proto Slav, was Hyperborean, but I have never heard of him being described as such by Howard, or even Hyrkanian, in REH's 'A Witch Shall Be Born' Olgerd is referred to as a Zaporoskan, which has a Slavic ring to it. Interestingly enough there is a district of Zaporoska in Poland, but I think REH took the name from it's association with the Zaporozhian Cossacks. Going back to Red Sonja, and now that I think of it, I suppose Roy Thomas could have given her similar origins to Olgerd Vladislav, the Zaporoskan/Zapatsko River tributory.
The only way I can kinda explain it, is that her father is simply a mercenary from the west (of Proto-Slavic origin) that lived among the Hyrkanians east of the Vilayet, not too far from the border of Khitai.
All that makes sense, especially this:
BlackHeart has already mentioned "blood tax" or "tribute in blood" (Данак у крви in Serbia).
Thats why we can see so many Red Sonjas in Turkey today.
Famous Turkish actress Meryem Uzerli, who played Roxelana in the Turkish TV series The Magnificent Centuryis, is from a mixed marriage. Her mother is German.
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Post by BlackHeart on Dec 23, 2022 14:26:46 GMT -5
Beautifull 💘 Absolutely Beautifull
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2022 3:07:54 GMT -5
I suppose if you really wanted to portray Sonja the right way for a Hyrkanian you would make her look Eurasian, and not like a Vanir or a type of Hyborian. As Hun noted though, there is some variation amongst the Steppe peoples when it comes to their appearance, some may look European, many in the east will have Mongol features, and then you get a whole plethora of people with various Eurasian features. I don’t know, maybe they thought of a certain red haired Russian Slav when they gave her that look from the comics, also the vague relationship to the non Hyrkanian Sonya of Rogatino from REH’s yarns, an eastern Slav by origin. Our favourite chainmail bikini clad heroine owes more to that white Slavic image than to REH’s Turkic/Mongol Hyrkanians. Of course, as with many things there is some overlap. Interesting to note that the highest frequency of red hair in Europe comes from Ireland, Wales, Scotland and in the middle of European Russia. Reading the comics way back when I always found it kind of bizarre that Red Sonja looked the way she did, but was descibed as Hyrkanian rather than say Vanir or some Hyborian. The Sonja name is popular in both Slavic and Scandinavian nations. I don't think Roy Thomas gave it much thought, a little inspired by REH's Red Sonya of Rogatino, who was of Slavic origin, but for some reason made his Red Sonja a Hyrkanian, although wanting to keep her tall red haired white in appearance, maybe he just associated the Hyrkanians with Russia/Eurasia, that east of Hyborian ( European nations ), say in the same way that Russia occupies that interesting niche between Europe and China, but it does create confusion as the Turkic peoples are also part of the Eurasian landscape. True, there are many modern Turkic speaking peoples that look like Red Sonja, but it's not how I envisioned REH's Hyrkanians, direct ancestors of the Turkic Hun and Mongol peoples as stated above.
Yes, agree about the Turks as per Turkey, modern day Turkey spans a small part of Balkan Europe and covers all of the Anatolian penninsula, centuries of association with Europeans, pre Turkic Anatolians, Armenians and Arabs would differentiate them from the more central Asian Turkic people, say Turkmens. Myself, I tend towards REH's description of the Hyrkanians from his Hyborian Age essay ...'The Hyrkanians are dark and generally tall and slender, though a squat slant-eyed type is more and more common among them, resulting from admixture with a curious race of intelligent, though stunted aborigines, conquered by them among the mountains east of the Vilayet, on their westward drift.' There is some assertion by a component of Conan and REH aficionados that Hyperborea was based on medieval Russia, specifically the Novgorod Republic, there may be elements, I personally don't hold that view in absolutist terms, but I have known diehards that thought that way. After all, Slavs are an Indo European people, so Hyborian age quasi European counterparts makes sense. Some of them also claimed Olgerd Vladislav, a kind of proto Slav, was Hyperborean, but I have never heard of him being described as such by Howard, or even Hyrkanian, in REH's 'A Witch Shall Be Born' Olgerd is referred to as a Zaporoskan, which has a Slavic ring to it. Interestingly enough there is a district of Zaporoska in Poland, but I think REH took the name from it's association with the Zaporozhian Cossacks. Going back to Red Sonja, and now that I think of it, I suppose Roy Thomas could have given her similar origins to Olgerd Vladislav, the Zaporoskan/Zapatsko River tributory.
The only way I can kinda explain it, is that her father is simply a mercenary from the west (of Proto-Slavic origin) that lived among the Hyrkanians east of the Vilayet, not too far from the border of Khitai.
All that makes sense, especially this:
BlackHeart has already mentioned "blood tax" or "tribute in blood" (Данак у крви in Serbia).
Thats why we can see so many Red Sonjas in Turkey today.
Famous Turkish actress Meryem Uzerli, who played Roxelana in the Turkish TV series The Magnificent Centuryis, is from a mixed marriage. Her mother is German.
Interestingly, the people with the highest frequency of red hair in Russia on the map are from Udmurtia, the Udmurts are of Uralic descent, they speak a language related to Finnish and Hungarian (these people were still considered the descendants of the Mongol/Turanian race according to REH!). The surrounding areas are inhabited by other Uralic and Turkic speaking peoples. But this, unlike the Ottomans and Turanians would be through assimilation, not some kinda blood tax or devşirme as the Ottomans called it. The Ottomans/Turanians obtained and enslaved these peoples intermingling with them through a similar procedure to the blood tax/devşirme. But, east & north of the Vilayet/Caspian Sea the process is through assimilation of the various tribes, speaking numerous languages. The nomadic tribes do not work in the same way as the settled empires like the Ottomans or Turanians.   Udmurt festival in Russia |
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Post by kemp on Dec 24, 2022 9:31:24 GMT -5
Interesting how the greatest concentration of red heads in the old world seems to be the northern and western parts of Britain and Ireland, and the central parts of European Russia. The Finno Ugric Udmurts, according to a cursory search on their culture, hold an annual festival in Izhevsk to celebrate the red haired people, since so many of them have red hair. 'It’s been called “the Russian spy look” for women: long red hair (natural or dyed), pale skin, high cheekbones, and perhaps a certain something in the eyes. Possibly it’s just a coincidence, but three ambitious Russian women who tried to make careers in the West, and who fit that description, have been accused as agents working at the behest of Russia's president (and spymaster) Vladimir Putin.' www.thedailybeast.com/maria-butina-and-anna-chapman-the-very-different-fates-of-russias-redheaded-spiesAnna Vasilyevna Chapman   The Russians are shockers  The Red Sonja look is not what I think of when I think of REH's Hyrkanians, his description of them, but it is one type of Russian look. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2022 3:13:54 GMT -5
 MERRY CHRISTMAS |
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Post by bonesaw on Jan 3, 2023 14:03:18 GMT -5
This is turning into a Men of Culture thread. Just like so many YT videos about professional women's "sports."
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Post by hyrkanian on Jan 6, 2023 8:34:32 GMT -5
With the heavy overuse of CGI in many productions these days it almost doesn't make a difference where they shoot these things now, Bulgaria just happened to be a place where you can pay the movie extras peanuts. Yes, of course, Millennium is the owner of the Bulgarian Nu Boyana Film Studios, and it is cheaper for them to film there, but that also is a limitation in their choice of locations. Even MJ complained in one of her videos from Bulgaria that she had to spend a long time looking for filming locations that had not already appeared in other Millennium films.
I bet we'll recognize some of the locations we saw in Conan movie.
By the way, the production designer is Clint Wallace, who is certainly the biggest name in the RS movie team.
That's why I hope that what we've seen from the set so far is not the best he's managed to make, although I understand that with a limited budget you can't be a great magician.
This is turning into a Men of Culture thread. Just like so many YT videos about professional women's "sports." Ha, ha, you're right, but that's because the target audience for this movie should be "men of culture", not the whole family and the audience that usually goes to see Marvel and DC movies. Sonja is not Wonder Women, so this approach to the movie adaptation of RS by Millennium Films is completely wrong.
But who knows, maybe Matilda's Sonja will become the only one, definitive and ultimate, and all those numerous RS cosplayers will have to retire.
Christmas set from GracieTheCosplayLass
And one and a half photo from Elly Clutch. I can not post the rest of that photo session, because Proboards would shut down this forum.
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Post by kemp on Jan 7, 2023 2:58:46 GMT -5
With the heavy overuse of CGI in many productions these days it almost doesn't make a difference where they shoot these things now, Bulgaria just happened to be a place where you can pay the movie extras peanuts. Yes, of course, Millennium is the owner of the Bulgarian Nu Boyana Film Studios, and it is cheaper for them to film there, but that also is a limitation in their choice of locations. Even MJ complained in one of her videos from Bulgaria that she had to spend a long time looking for filming locations that had not already appeared in other Millennium films.
I bet we'll recognize some of the locations we saw in Conan movie.
By the way, the production designer is Clint Wallace, who is certainly the biggest name in the RS movie team.
Bulgaria is fast becoming a popular destination for many of the Hollywood productions, cheap locations, easy permits, very scenic. 3seaseurope.com/bulgaria-hillywood-filming-locations/#:~:text=%E2%80%9C300%3A%20Rise%20of%20an%20Empire,packed%20films%20to%20romantic%20dramedies. I never knew that much of Rambo: The Last Blood was shot in Bulgaria, the farm scene for instance. Red Sonja is a Hyrkanian, distant ancestors of the Turks, the connection with Bulgaria here is that Bulgaria gets its name from the early medieval Turkic Bulgars that settled the region and gave their name to the country. I think the name Balkan is Bulgar Turk for mountain. |
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Post by Char-Vell on Jan 7, 2023 11:42:29 GMT -5
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