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Post by slegtvalk on May 11, 2021 0:43:44 GMT -5
I started reading Mark Finn's Blood and Thunder and I really enjoyed it until I got to the part about Conan. From the way Finn talks about the stories I get the impression that he doesn't actually think much of them. Nor of Howard as an author, for that matter. Too often he uses the argument that Howard just wanted to "sell" stories to Fensworth Wright. Because of the fact that Finn constantly returns to this kind of reasoning he portrays Howard more like a clever salesman than an author who conciously made his own artistic choices. Sex and violence? That was just because Howard wanted to appeal to the working class tastes of Weird Tales' audience. Female characters? They were mostly flat and merely served a purpose. About Vale of the Lost Women Finn says: "No one looks good in this story. Not Robert, not Conan, not even Livia. No one." About The Devil in Iron he says: "Six months away had dimmed his [Howard's] inspiration" ... I could go on. The point that Finn seems to want to make is that Howard could have been a great writer if he'd lived longer. The Conan stories only seem interesting when Finn can link them in some way to Howard's life in Texas. I don't know. I was disapointed to be honest. What did you guys think about this part of the book?
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Post by freelance on May 12, 2021 21:20:00 GMT -5
It seems what fans regard as the "best" Conan stories are the ones where REH was able to inject some of his own philosophy into the narrative like "Queen of the Black Coast" & "Beyond the Black River". The fact he was able to do this is testament to his uncanny ability as an artist who needed to earn a living. In my humble opinion the Conan series as a whole is very mediocre, certainly not his best work. "Red Nails" is highly overrated! I do find Finn's line about no one looking good ridiculous. Also it is important to note that had REH lived longer he most likely would not have written much more Sword & Sorcery, which is what he is remembered for the most.
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Post by danieljames495 on May 12, 2021 23:56:34 GMT -5
It seems what fans regard as the "best" Conan stories are the ones where REH was able to inject some of his own philosophy into the narrative like "Queen of the Black Coast" & "Beyond the Black River". The fact he was able to do this is testament to his uncanny ability as an artist who needed to earn a living. In my humble opinion the Conan series as a whole is very mediocre, certainly not his best work. "Red Nails" is highly overrated! I do find Finn's line about no one looking good ridiculous. Also it is important to note that had REH lived longer he most likely would not have written much more Sword & Sorcery, which is what he is remembered for the most. Well I may be one of those people because beyond the black river is by far my favorite. It's also worth noting that REH recycled some of his already used plots for Conan stories. Like Red nails and The Slithering Shadow (Xuthal of the dusk) both have a lost city civilization that Conan ends up having to fight his way out of with a girl. Or Iron Shadows in the moon and The devil in Iron. Aside from the obvious similarities of those two even the names of the girls are similar, Olivia and Octavia, if I remember correctly. I think the similarities that Devil in Iron shared with Iron Shadows may be why Finn called Howard's inspiration 'dimmed'. However He definitely exaggerates his criticism. I personally have no problem with these similarities. Quite the opposite actually, I love all of these stories equally |
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Post by slegtvalk on May 14, 2021 0:49:58 GMT -5
In my humble opinion the Conan series as a whole is very mediocre, certainly not his best work. These stories are still being read with incredible enthusiasm by thousands of people across the world, nearly a century after they have been written. Most authors can only dream of that, so how can it possibly be mediocre? I found another biography on Howard: Rogues and renegades by Todd B. Vick. Has anyone read it? Does he share Finn's opinion on this? |
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Post by freelance on May 14, 2021 3:06:45 GMT -5
Quite simply a matter of personal opinion. As to the enduring popularity of Conan, I think it hinges on REH's central theme of civilization vs barbarism, or better stated vitality vs decadence. This theme continues to strike a chord with many of us dissatisfied with the postmodern society we live in. The theme is much more forcefully expressed through the tales of Kull and Bran Mak Morn as well as his tales of ancestral memory.
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Post by keith on Jun 6, 2021 5:09:33 GMT -5
It seems what fans regard as the "best" Conan stories are the ones where REH was able to inject some of his own philosophy into the narrative like "Queen of the Black Coast" & "Beyond the Black River". The fact he was able to do this is testament to his uncanny ability as an artist who needed to earn a living. In my humble opinion the Conan series as a whole is very mediocre, certainly not his best work. "Red Nails" is highly overrated! I do find Finn's line about no one looking good ridiculous. Also it is important to note that had REH lived longer he most likely would not have written much more Sword & Sorcery, which is what he is remembered for the most. |
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Post by keith on Jun 6, 2021 6:05:15 GMT -5
No intention of starting a fight here. Just responding because I find what freelance wrote very interesting. REH did create work that I think is superior to the Conan saga generally, such as his historicals like "The Lion of Tiberias" and "Shadow of the Vulture", but the Conan yarns really do include some of Howard's best writing, such as "People of the Black Circle" and "The Hour of the Dragon" (Conan the Conqueror). "Red Nails" is an equal favourite of mine with "People of the Black Circle". The dragon in the forest, Valeria, the weird, inturned city and its half-mad, feud-obsessed imitation Aztec inhabitants, the villains Olmec and Tascela, the shifting alliances and double-crosses (Howard was always good with those) make "Red Nails" really memorable. If I had to name a Conan story I'd call bland and forgettable beside "Red Nails" I'd opt for "Xuthal of the Dusk". That weird lost city is plain boring beside Xuchotl, its inhabitants passive and bloodless, even the Stygian Thalis an unimpressive wretch beside Tascela - or Salome, for that matter.
The monster Thog is interesting mainly because, as Deuce Richardson has cogently pointed out, he/it is recognizable as one of the Tsathogguan toad-spawn Howard used in a number of stories like "The Thing on the Roof" and "The Black Stone". Tsotha-lanti in "The Scarlet Citadel" seems to be the superficially human offspring of yet another. (Deuce again, not my insight.) But as far as I'm concerned "Xuthal of the Dusk" is still third-rate Robert Howard.
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Post by freelance on Jun 6, 2021 14:59:37 GMT -5
Hi Keith! Thanks for posting. Steve Tompkins writes in his introduction to the Del Rey edition of Kull: "During the Kull yrs Howard the apprentice took over from Howard the amateur. He was less market-minded than he would become, and the series exhibits not the precision-guided productivity of the later professional but a purple and gold romanticism". It is this "middle period" of REH that I appreciate the most. REH's works from this period reward re-reading in way that for me the Conan series does not.
Just for the record, my favorite Conan yarn is "The Scarlet Citadel" most of all because of the diatribe he offers Tsotha-lanti & his retinue: "I climbed out of the abyss of naked barbarism to the throne and in that climb I spilt my blood as freely as I spilt that of others. If either of us has the right to rule men, by Crom it is I! How have you proved yourselves my superiors?"
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Post by themirrorthief on Jun 7, 2021 1:47:49 GMT -5
Howard wrote fantasy...and damned good fantasy...his worlds are a helluva lot more interesting than the ones most of us trudge thro on a daily basis with the highlight being a trip to wal mart or going to get ice cream somewhere...Howard enriched us..maybe he wasnt trying to make us better people like some authors think they are doing...he just wanted us to have a better day while we eat our ice cream
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Post by keith on Jun 8, 2021 22:07:02 GMT -5
Hi Keith! Thanks for posting. Steve Tompkins writes in his introduction to the Del Rey edition of Kull: "During the Kull yrs Howard the apprentice took over from Howard the amateur. He was less market-minded than he would become, and the series exhibits not the precision-guided productivity of the later professional but a purple and gold romanticism". It is this "middle period" of REH that I appreciate the most. REH's works from this period reward re-reading in way that for me the Conan series does not. Just for the record, my favorite Conan yarn is "The Scarlet Citadel" most of all because of the diatribe he offers Tsotha-lanti & his retinue: "I climbed out of the abyss of naked barbarism to the throne and in that climb I spilt my blood as freely as I spilt that of others. If either of us has the right to rule men, by Crom it is I! How have you proved yourselves my superiors?" |
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Post by keith on Jun 8, 2021 22:20:52 GMT -5
"The Scarlet Citadel" is great! One of REH's best! I have a number of reasons for thinking so, and one of them is the diatribe from the captive Conan that you mention. Besides the blood-spilling, he also mentions that since he became king the constant wars of the barons have been stopped, no noble dares maltreat the humblest of his subjects, and the taxes of the people are lighter than anywhere else in the world.
Then there's Tsotha-lanti himself, a truly sinister wizard, the hellish pits under his citadel with their grotesque and horrid denizens, the other wizard Pelias. sinister himself to no small extent, but smooth, suave and hedonistic. "Wine is a curse - by the ivory bosom of Ishtar, even as I speak of it, the traitor is here! Friend, please pour me a goblet ... "
The eunuch Shukeli plays a minor role but his nastiness is hard to forget. So is the scene in which Pelias makes his corpse rise and open the dungeon door.
I like your taste!
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