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Post by mingerganthecat on Aug 5, 2022 11:21:20 GMT -5
The ones in Innsmouth circa 1928 were apparently exterminated without too much trouble, and their base off Devil's Reef was "hurt" by 1920's-era torpedos. Even earlier, an infestation of them was razed by early-19th century Pacific Islanders. But Zadok Allen seems convinced that they could destroy humanity if they wished, and the narrator implies that this is still their plan before signing off. Is there any additional text that shows them actually having that capability, or are the frogmen being overestimated here?
Howard and Lovecraft borrowed a lot of ideas from each other, and Lovecraftian-style Deep Ones (or something a lot like them) apparently show up post-Howard Conan works. Would humans in the Hyborian or Medieval Era be able to survive a full-scale war with them?
Pretty sure a shoggoth would be untouchable to pre-industrial humans unless magic or Greek Fire was brought to bear upon it.
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Post by Char-Vell on Aug 5, 2022 11:28:36 GMT -5
I figure Deep Ones are at least as tough as the Gill-Man (CftBL).
Yeah Shoggoths are a handfull.
Doesn't Cormac Mac Art face a Shoggoth at some point?
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Post by mingerganthecat on Aug 5, 2022 11:43:43 GMT -5
I figure Deep Ones are at least as tough as the Gill-Man (CftBL). Yeah Shoggoths are a handfull. Doesn't Cormac Mac Art face a Shoggoth at some point? I've actually never seen Creature from the Black Lagoon. Need to put that on my list. I could imagine them being maybe Thak-like in physical power. Conan could probably take one in a fight, but not many other humans can. He might have done so. I haven't read all the Offutt novels, but he certainly runs into plenty of weirdness there and in the original Howard. |
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Post by zarono on Aug 5, 2022 22:02:40 GMT -5
I'd say the hybrid Deep Ones like the Innsmouth residents have about the same strength as a human of comparable stature, as you say the pacific islanders wiped out a whole tribe of them.
The ancient Deep Ones like Obed March's 80,000 year old wife Pth’thya-l’yi are likely far stronger than a comparable human their bodies being adapted to the pressure of the deep seas.
The gigantic Deep Ones like Dagon could be a problem, nearly big as whale you might need a ballista or similar to take them down. Conan wrecked Thaug with a group of archers so it can be done.
Shoggoths would be almost unstoppable, the Elder Things had to use "curious weapons of molecular disturbance" against them, not many of those laying around.
Could the Deep Ones wipe out humanity like Zadok says? Maybe, we know they have giants and shoggoths who knows what else they have down there. I think they could decimate coastal areas but would not go very far inland. There's also a chance they may have magic to call up storms at sea like Ephraim Waite in Thing on the Doorstep (Ephraim lived in Innsmouth and was likely married to Deep One).
A tenuous connection to ponder:
REH never mentioned the Deep Ones but Dagon is mentioned 3 times in Worms of the Earth; Dagon's Barrow, Dagon's Mere, and Dagon's Ring. Is this the Lovecraftian Dagon? I don't know but REH made a point to connect Worms of the Earth to Lovecraft by having Bran Mak Morn swear by the "Black gods of Rlyeh"
Then there's this bit from Atla:
"What have I known but the lone winds of the fens, the dreary fire of cold sunsets, the whispering of the marsh grasses?—the faces that blink up at me in the waters of the meres, the foot-pad of night—things in the gloom, the glimmer of red eyes, the grisly murmur of nameless beings in the night!"
Faces in the water? Could be Worms swimming around I suppose but I didn't think they were particularly aquatic.
Also something dwells in Dagon's Mere:
"What primeval shape lurked below the surface of that treacherous mere, Bran could not guess, but he felt that the fenmen had good reason for shunning the spot, after all."
We never get to see what it is, later in the comics adaptation it was portrayed as something like the Loch Ness monster or a plesiosaur but REH didn't describe it that way.
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Post by zarono on Aug 5, 2022 22:08:20 GMT -5
I figure Deep Ones are at least as tough as the Gill-Man (CftBL). Yeah Shoggoths are a handfull. Doesn't Cormac Mac Art face a Shoggoth at some point? Yep Temple of the Abomination, I don't think Cormac ever actually sees it though just hears it crawling greasily around in some catacombs under the temple. Could be a shoggoth though or some other squishy abomination like the one that busts out on Solomon Kane in The Footfalls Within. |
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Post by mingerganthecat on Aug 7, 2022 21:51:00 GMT -5
Shoggoths would be almost unstoppable, the Elder Things had to use "curious weapons of molecular disturbance" against them, not many of those laying around. I always assumed that the buildings being burned and dynamited in the preface of Shadow Over Innsmouth were the ones holding the shoggoths, though the story isn't clear on the matter. If it's the case though, then perhaps distentigrator rays aren't strictly required to deal with one. Though really, it wouldn't surprise me if even a few of those weren't to be found lying around in some forgotten ancient city. Bran Mak Morn met King Kull when the latter astrally projected himself into the future to help him fight the Romans. Kull's Atlanteans are stated as ancestors of Conan's Cimmerians. And Lovecraft mentions Valusia in at the Mountains of Madness, which may or may not be Kull's Valusia. So yeah, it's tenuous, but it's there. |
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Post by zarono on Aug 8, 2022 10:42:57 GMT -5
A good story you might want to read with some direct human vs Shoggoth combat in the Innsmouth raid is Adam Scott Glancy's "Once More from the Top". If I recall correctly they manage to take out a Shoggoth with flame throwers and explosives but it's shows what a nightmare it would be to go up against one of those proto-plasmic horrors.
Elder Things Molecular disturbance weapons might be rare but a Howardian option could be the crimson fire beam wand from Red Nails, if it's naval combat a guy on one ship could have the wand and another ship have metal for the grounding material and anything caught between the two is toast.
Lots of back and forth connections with REH and HPL, Lovecraft mentions Crom-Ya the Cimmerian chieftain of 15000 BC in Shadow Out of Time (I like to think this date is after the fall of Hyborian Age) and Out of the Aeons talks extensely about Von Junzt and Nameless Cults. But Howard never gets around to mentioning the Deep Ones directly that I know of, he does have plenty of his own aquatic monsters in Delcardes Cat: an octupus-man, a horned shark-man with 4 arms, and giant water spider, all in a weird lake that may be partly in another dimension.
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Post by mingerganthecat on Aug 14, 2022 3:32:38 GMT -5
A good story you might want to read with some direct human vs Shoggoth combat in the Innsmouth raid is Adam Scott Glancy's "Once More from the Top". If I recall correctly they manage to take out a Shoggoth with flame throwers and explosives but it's shows what a nightmare it would be to go up against one of those proto-plasmic horrors. Elder Things Molecular disturbance weapons might be rare but a Howardian option could be the crimson fire beam wand from Red Nails, if it's naval combat a guy on one ship could have the wand and another ship have metal for the grounding material and anything caught between the two is toast. Lots of back and forth connections with REH and HPL, Lovecraft mentions Crom-Ya the Cimmerian chieftain of 15000 BC in Shadow Out of Time (I like to think this date is after the fall of Hyborian Age) and Out of the Aeons talks extensely about Von Junzt and Nameless Cults. But Howard never gets around to mentioning the Deep Ones directly that I know of, he does have plenty of his own aquatic monsters in Delcardes Cat: an octupus-man, a horned shark-man with 4 arms, and giant water spider, all in a weird lake that may be partly in another dimension. Using black lotus on a shoggoth would be... interesting. Wouldn't want to live in the same reality as the guy who tries it though. |
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