|
Post by mindboggled on Aug 9, 2023 12:31:33 GMT -5
This is a return to form. The type of art and writing seen in the classic SSOC. Hopefully the sales stay strong with each successive issue.
|
|
|
Post by terryallenuk on Aug 14, 2023 1:04:29 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by cromfelge on Aug 14, 2023 3:07:11 GMT -5
So because Conan doesn't slay the pict woman on sight in issue #1 this destroys Howard's worldbuilding? His self-diagnose of being the old man fighting windmills sounds about right. The picts have always been disguised American Indians in Conan stories. Stories with them in them have always been similar to Western stories. And there are many Western with Natives/Europeans getting along pretty well or working together for a common cause despite not usually liking each other's population.
The only point I get is when you approach it chronologically: What happens in Black Stranger is quite definitely happening after the new Titan series. So if Conan met this pict and they worked together as a team, why would he say such a negative thing about the entire race later on? I get that point. But then again, by these standards you'd have to throw out 90% of Conan comics and pastiche. Is the last 10% better though? No. Howard himself prefered good stories over continuity - that's why we're still struggling to even chronologically organize his very own Conan stories.
The last paragraph is one I dislike the most. Sounds more like a passive-aggressive application letter than anything else. Maybe someone hasn't been contacted by Titan/Hero and is sour about it?
|
|
|
Post by johnnypt on Aug 14, 2023 8:09:29 GMT -5
Hopefully I’ll be able to get the book by the end of the week when I get back home. There’s a way to play around with an aspect of a character and a way not to. It’s the old buddy film idea of two guys who don’t get along having to work together. If it’s earlier in his career, it can’t be anything more than a singular transactional action. I came up with the idea later that to remove the curse from the Treasure of Tranicos, as king he wouldn’t do anything in the Pictish wilderness which is why it was relatively quiet. Something like that would be explainable.
|
|
|
Post by Von K on Aug 14, 2023 15:58:21 GMT -5
Wouldn’t mind reading a transcript of the Discord discussion on this, sounds like it could be an interesting and toasty read. I can identify with Scott’s point but I feel Jim needs a chance to tell his yarn first. I don’t think we can really discuss this objectively until his yarn has had a chance to be told in full - after issue 4 has been published. Much depends on how he has rationalised everything within the context of the yarn.
|
|
|
Post by Von K on Aug 14, 2023 16:04:19 GMT -5
The picts have always been disguised American Indians in Conan stories. Stories with them in them have always been similar to Western stories. And there are many Western with Natives/Europeans getting along pretty well or working together for a common cause despite not usually liking each other's population.
REH borrowed some of the aspects of Native Americans for his presentation of the Hyborian Age Picts, but they are manifestly not related to Native Americans within the context of the worldbuilding itself. They are their own lineage stretching from pre Thurian Age down through two cataclysms to finally fade into obscurity before the time of Turlough.
REH strongly identified with the Picts and gave them a long and tragic arc over the millennia and through several cataclysms. In the Hyborian Age we meet them at their most savage, and held in the grip of the shamen of the cults of Jhebbal Sag, long fallen from the more dignified and enlightened Picts with which Kull interacted in the Thurian Age.
If one tries to overly historicize REH's Hyborian Age Picts you will turn them into stereotypical analogues of Native Americans and end up producing something like Dances With Picts instead of say Beyond the Black River. That changes both the thematic focus and the atmospheric vibe of REH's worldbuilding. Too much of that would result in something that was not even in the same genre*, let alone the same Hyborian Age fantasy world.
Jason Aaron skirted very close to that in his Marvel run at a couple of points.
The answer I feel lies in not overly changing the nature of REH's HA Picts (which is intrinsic to his HA worldbuilding). More along the lines of how would REH's larger more sympathetic Thurian and Dark Age context for the Picts get organically presented in a purely Hyborian Age based adaptation?
And therefore - how would any outliers and individuals (like Brissa perhaps) and Conan’s attitude towards them, be rationalised within the context of a given yarn? That's the real issue. And there are quite a few literary techniques which can be called upon to deal with it.
Take a look at Tim Truman's Wolves Beyond the Border adaptation for one recent example of a few ways to incorporate REH's larger more sympathetic Pictish context into a HA yarn. You'll see a couple of the techniques I mentioned being actively employed by Tim. A far superior and knowledgeable treatment than Jason Aaron's imho.
But that’s just my 2c - I am certainly no expert on any of this!
* regarding genre - Jim mentioned Conan as the superhero of the Hyborian Age at SDCC, so maybe a genre shift is part of the plan going forward? It is easier to market a property as a superhero one than as a sword and sorcery one because superhero movies have a considerably better track record at the box office than sword and sorcery ones. That’s just a practical aspect of making it easier to get funding for a Conan movie. Just sayin.'
|
|
|
Post by kemp on Aug 14, 2023 18:58:53 GMT -5
Read Bran Mak Morn, but Hyborian Age Picts were primitive and blood thirsty savages for the most part.
|
|
|
Post by mindboggled on Aug 14, 2023 22:38:29 GMT -5
So because Conan doesn't slay the pict woman on sight in issue #1 this destroys Howard's worldbuilding? His self-diagnose of being the old man fighting windmills sounds about right. The picts have always been disguised American Indians in Conan stories. Stories with them in them have always been similar to Western stories. And there are many Western with Natives/Europeans getting along pretty well or working together for a common cause despite not usually liking each other's population.
The only point I get is when you approach it chronologically: What happens in Black Stranger is quite definitely happening after the new Titan series. So if Conan met this pict and they worked together as a team, why would he say such a negative thing about the entire race later on? I get that point. But then again, by these standards you'd have to throw out 90% of Conan comics and pastiche. Is the last 10% better though? No. Howard himself prefered good stories over continuity - that's why we're still struggling to even chronologically organize his very own Conan stories.
The last paragraph is one I dislike the most. Sounds more like a passive-aggressive application letter than anything else. Maybe someone hasn't been contacted by Titan/Hero and is sour about it?
90%! There's only a hand full of pastiches I recall were Conan worked with the Picts. But besides that, I think Scott Oden has a fair point. There are multiple examples from several of Howard's Conan tales of Conan's animosity for the Picts. It's definitely a distinct character strait that is quite stark. And I did find it a bit odd while reading #1 that none of this characteristic hatred for the Picts was not displayed. Regardless, it is a good pastiche so far.
|
|
|
Post by cromfelge on Aug 15, 2023 0:52:33 GMT -5
90%! There's only a hand full of pastiches I recall were Conan worked with the Picts. But besides that, I think Scott Oden has a fair point. There are multiple examples from several of Howard's Conan tales of Conan's animosity for the Picts. It's definitely a distinct character strait that is quite stark. And I did find it a bit odd while reading #1 that none of this characteristic hatred for the Picts was not displayed. Regardless, it is a good pastiche so far. Not talking about the picts specifically but about general inconsistencies with Howard's work or in itself.
|
|
|
Post by cromfelge on Aug 15, 2023 1:00:24 GMT -5
The picts have always been disguised American Indians in Conan stories. Stories with them in them have always been similar to Western stories. And there are many Western with Natives/Europeans getting along pretty well or working together for a common cause despite not usually liking each other's population.
REH borrowed some of the aspects of Native Americans for his presentation of the Hyborian Age Picts, but they are manifestly not related to Native Americans within the context of the worldbuilding itself. They are their own lineage stretching from pre Thurian Age down through two cataclysms to finally fade into obscurity before the time of Turlough.
REH strongly identified with the Picts and gave them a long and tragic arc over the millennia and through several cataclysms. In the Hyborian Age we meet them at their most savage, and held in the grip of the shamen of the cults of Jhebbal Sag, long fallen from the more dignified and enlightened Picts with which Kull interacted in the Thurian Age.
If one tries to overly historicize REH's Hyborian Age Picts you will turn them into stereotypical analogues of Native Americans and end up producing something like Dances With Picts instead of say Beyond the Black River. That changes both the thematic focus and the atmospheric vibe of REH's worldbuilding. Too much of that would result in something that was not even in the same genre*, let alone the same Hyborian Age fantasy world.
Jason Aaron skirted very close to that in his Marvel run at a couple of points.
The answer I feel lies in not overly changing the nature of REH's HA Picts (which is intrinsic to his HA worldbuilding). More along the lines of how would REH's larger more sympathetic Thurian and Dark Age context for the Picts get organically presented in a purely Hyborian Age based adaptation?
And therefore - how would any outliers and individuals (like Brissa perhaps) and Conan’s attitude towards them, be rationalised within the context of a given yarn? That's the real issue. And there are quite a few literary techniques which can be called upon to deal with it.
Take a look at Tim Truman's Wolves Beyond the Border adaptation for one recent example of a few ways to incorporate REH's larger more sympathetic Pictish context into a HA yarn. You'll see a couple of the techniques I mentioned being actively employed by Tim. A far superior and knowledgeable treatment than Jason Aaron's imho.
But that’s just my 2c - I am certainly no expert on any of this!
* regarding genre - Jim mentioned Conan as the superhero of the Hyborian Age at SDCC, so maybe a genre shift is part of the plan going forward? It is easier to market a property as a superhero one than as a sword and sorcery one because superhero movies have a considerably better track record at the box office than sword and sorcery ones. That’s just a practical aspect of making it easier to get funding for a Conan movie. Just sayin.'
Obviously they are not Native Americans but there are a lot of similarities. I can totally get behind finding it strange Zub picked the picts for Brissa's background. At first glance, there is no reason these zombified hordes are picts - they could be Aquilonians, Stygians, Nemedians or whatever else. But maybe it will make sense later in the story.
Regarding genre: I feel like Marvel always treated Conan like one of their superheroes. At least the German publishers called him that in the 70s already. This may be a general question: how do S&S-comics differ from Superhero-Comics? They work extremely similar anyway (Red Sonja has the same "problem").
|
|
|
Post by Von K on Aug 15, 2023 16:17:15 GMT -5
REH borrowed some of the aspects of Native Americans for his presentation of the Hyborian Age Picts, but they are manifestly not related to Native Americans within the context of the worldbuilding itself. They are their own lineage stretching from pre Thurian Age down through two cataclysms to finally fade into obscurity before the time of Turlough.
REH strongly identified with the Picts and gave them a long and tragic arc over the millennia and through several cataclysms. In the Hyborian Age we meet them at their most savage, and held in the grip of the shamen of the cults of Jhebbal Sag, long fallen from the more dignified and enlightened Picts with which Kull interacted in the Thurian Age.
If one tries to overly historicize REH's Hyborian Age Picts you will turn them into stereotypical analogues of Native Americans and end up producing something like Dances With Picts instead of say Beyond the Black River. That changes both the thematic focus and the atmospheric vibe of REH's worldbuilding. Too much of that would result in something that was not even in the same genre*, let alone the same Hyborian Age fantasy world.
Jason Aaron skirted very close to that in his Marvel run at a couple of points.
The answer I feel lies in not overly changing the nature of REH's HA Picts (which is intrinsic to his HA worldbuilding). More along the lines of how would REH's larger more sympathetic Thurian and Dark Age context for the Picts get organically presented in a purely Hyborian Age based adaptation?
And therefore - how would any outliers and individuals (like Brissa perhaps) and Conan’s attitude towards them, be rationalised within the context of a given yarn? That's the real issue. And there are quite a few literary techniques which can be called upon to deal with it.
Take a look at Tim Truman's Wolves Beyond the Border adaptation for one recent example of a few ways to incorporate REH's larger more sympathetic Pictish context into a HA yarn. You'll see a couple of the techniques I mentioned being actively employed by Tim. A far superior and knowledgeable treatment than Jason Aaron's imho.
But that’s just my 2c - I am certainly no expert on any of this!
* regarding genre - Jim mentioned Conan as the superhero of the Hyborian Age at SDCC, so maybe a genre shift is part of the plan going forward? It is easier to market a property as a superhero one than as a sword and sorcery one because superhero movies have a considerably better track record at the box office than sword and sorcery ones. That’s just a practical aspect of making it easier to get funding for a Conan movie. Just sayin.'
Obviously they are not Native Americans but there are a lot of similarities. I can totally get behind finding it strange Zub picked the picts for Brissa's background. At first glance, there is no reason these zombified hordes are picts - they could be Aquilonians, Stygians, Nemedians or whatever else. But maybe it will make sense later in the story.
Regarding genre: I feel like Marvel always treated Conan like one of their superheroes. At least the German publishers called him that in the 70s already.
Whilst I know that REH based the Picts during the Hyborian Age on the Native Americans of Texan history, drawing a lot of traits from them, I just wanted to stress that he never dealt in direct historical analogues in the Conan yarns, always mixing, matching and modifying to fit his overall Hyborian Age conception. A lot of modern commenters (and some writers) tend to treat them as if they might as well directly be Native Americans.
Scott's right when it comes to a pure interpretation of REH's source text. I guess the comics have always played a little fast and loose with REH's canon and it's kind of expected and accepted to some degree. They are touching base with REH scholar Jeff Shanks on the new Titan series so I'd guess he'd clue them in on any major points, trying to strike a balance between canon and allowing them enough creative freedom to riff on REH's core material.
Good question for some discussion. Too big a question for an easy answer. My approach would be to start with the nature of the hero in both genres and use Northrop Frye's theory of Modes as a springboard:
Generally that would place Conan in Mode 2 - Romantic Hero and most Superheroes would fit mode 1 Mythic by the very nature of having one or more superpowers.
Exceptions for superheroes like Iron Man and Batman and Black Widow who generally fit mode 2 because they don't actually have superpowers.
Red Sonja would fit mode 1 Mythic because her powers are gifted to her by a goddess. REH's original Red Sonya of Rogatino is a pulp hero in the High Mimetic mode 3.
Generally I'd say that superhero comics feature heroes in the Mythic mode (1) because they have supernatural powers. Sword and Sorcery comics generally feature heroes in the High Mimetic or Romantic mode (3 or 2) but often face off against supernatural threats from the Mythic mode (1).
I'll stop there. Don't want to derail the thread.
Does that help or am I actually making it more confusing?
|
|
|
Post by kemp on Aug 15, 2023 20:36:39 GMT -5
The above makes sense, a little like how Deckard in the original Blade Runner was only able to kill two unarmed female replicants, shooting one in the back, but had to be saved from being wiped out by the other two male replicants, one of them sparing his life at the end. That would be somewhere in '4- LOW MIMETIC- The hero is neither superior in degree or environment. Realism. We are like the hero.'
Situation is desperate and you think if he keeps this job going he will be taken out next week or month after that. Almost kinda like you imagine yourself to be in that situation. That adds to the suspense and tension of the situation and works well in some genre movies, remember The Warriors and Escape from New York.
Conan definitely fits into the strong side of 2-ROMANTIC, maybe with shades of 3 at times, but then again, the same could be said for Batman and other non powered protagonists.
|
|
|
Post by hun on Aug 16, 2023 10:59:23 GMT -5
I gotta admit, it did not seem to kinda fit with Conan teaming up with a Pict. Torre's Brissa looks like Big John's Belit - could explain Conan's attitude towards the Pict if Torre illustrates any comics set in the future featuring the Queen of the Black Coast.
|
|
|
Post by Taurus on Aug 16, 2023 12:17:58 GMT -5
Conan teaming up with a pict feels like a script mistake because it does not fit Howard's vision as others have pointed out. I doubt anything will change until the arch is finished and I would be surprised if a plot twist explains this very unlikely alliance.
|
|
|
Post by Jason Aiken on Aug 16, 2023 15:39:41 GMT -5
I haven't read the issue yet but if Conan is going to team up with any Pict, it would be one he'd like to have sexual relations with, like this woman.
|
|