|
Post by robp on Jul 29, 2022 7:58:30 GMT -5
Neil Gaiman, creator of The Sandman, discusses his approach to trolls who go online to criticize the Netflix show's color and gender-blind casting. The Sandman creator Neil Gaiman explained why he chooses to fire back at online trolls over Netflix's color and gender-blind casting of the comic book adaptation. In an interview with Yahoo Entertainment at San Diego Comic-Con, Gaiman revealed his reasons for directly replying to people who have taken to Twitter to complain about the show's "wokeness." These so-called fans have lambasted the casting of actors such as Black actor Kirby Howell-Baptiste as Death, non-binary actor Mason Alexander Park as Desire and Gwendoline Christie, a woman, cast as the genderless fallen angel Lucifer. www.cbr.com/the-sandman-neil-gaiman-explains-tears-down-online-trolls/Thanks
|
|
|
Post by hyrkanian on Jul 29, 2022 9:16:23 GMT -5
They have to be careful to weed the real trolls, like the ones who were going after the Star Wars actresses, with the actual fans who do have legitimate concerns. Those will have their answers once the show airs and they'll see if the focus and feel is correct. If they still voice legitimate and respectful criticisms, the creators will need to take them into consideration. It reminds me of the story Charlton Heston told about the time he was working with Laurence Olivier and Sir Larry got some bad reviews. Heston told him to ignore them and he said "Chuck, it's the good ones you have to ignore." That's why it's always easiest for creators to call all the people who criticized their work - trolls, just like Neil did, and thus avoid responding to legitimate and objective criticism.
|
|
|
Post by johnnypt on Jul 29, 2022 9:38:44 GMT -5
They have to be careful to weed the real trolls, like the ones who were going after the Star Wars actresses, with the actual fans who do have legitimate concerns. Those will have their answers once the show airs and they'll see if the focus and feel is correct. If they still voice legitimate and respectful criticisms, the creators will need to take them into consideration. It reminds me of the story Charlton Heston told about the time he was working with Laurence Olivier and Sir Larry got some bad reviews. Heston told him to ignore them and he said "Chuck, it's the good ones you have to ignore." That's why it's always easiest for creators to call all the people who criticized their work - trolls, just like Neil did, and thus avoid responding to legitimate and objective criticism.
That's the problem with the trolls who take things way too far with their hate, they help obscure any real issues people may have with the current wave of adaptations. I'm going over Foundation to possibly put it in an upcoming podcast series. They've changed three of the characters from the original stories from male to female. Color is never really mentioned in the stories so that's practically a non issue far as I'm concerned. Gaal Dornick, this is the most malleable one since the character is just in the first framing story, no problem here. I can imagine Asimov giving the ok to this one. Salvor Hardin on the other hand is a major figure in the early history of Foundation, the hero of the first two magazine stories. This one, to be honest, has been distracting. And the actress has been doing a fine job with it, not an issue there like it was in Obi Wan. But this one does have a "check the box" feel to the approach to the character. Now Demerzel is interesting. The character is a robot and is revealed in the books to be a VERY important character in the Asimov universe. Now I suppose they could either slightly change the characters name (or even the pronunciation) or have the character "change" along the way if they stick with its back history. It's frankly easier to just do the former since if they do the other one, it'll just be too silly and forcing a purpose into the story. Next season they'll be introducing one of the other important characters from the first book and it WILL be a man! There's one other character that's already been name dropped and I have to think that one will stay male as well. Can you imagine calling a woman a mule and getting away with it?
|
|
|
Post by Von K on Jul 29, 2022 14:39:46 GMT -5
Neil Gaiman, creator of The Sandman, discusses his approach to trolls who go online to criticize the Netflix show's color and gender-blind casting. The Sandman creator Neil Gaiman explained why he chooses to fire back at online trolls over Netflix's color and gender-blind casting of the comic book adaptation. In an interview with Yahoo Entertainment at San Diego Comic-Con, Gaiman revealed his reasons for directly replying to people who have taken to Twitter to complain about the show's "wokeness." These so-called fans have lambasted the casting of actors such as Black actor Kirby Howell-Baptiste as Death, non-binary actor Mason Alexander Park as Desire and Gwendoline Christie, a woman, cast as the genderless fallen angel Lucifer. www.cbr.com/the-sandman-neil-gaiman-explains-tears-down-online-trolls/Thanks Terry. So according to that article Neil's fans are now tiny ants to be smitten with a supercilious sledgehammer are they? Hope he doesn't accidentally crush any of them as his foot spurns the hands that lifted him to his lofty post as 'one of the greatest living authors of all time,' (as Park calls him). For anyone who wants to read some of the actual tweets and Neil Gaiman's replies and reasons there's another article here that covers a few: boundingintocomics.com/2021/06/02/neil-gaiman-responds-to-criticisms-of-race-swapped-casting-of-death-in-netflix-sandman-series/Calling these people 'trolls' seems like more MSM hyperbole to me. Just understandable (if heated) questions from fans followed by Neil's responses. Meanwhile - back at the ranch: The Sandman Writer Neil Gaiman Explains Why Franchises Like Star Wars And Star Trek Have Lost Significant Portions Of Their Fan Basesboundingintocomics.com/2020/10/16/the-sandman-writer-neil-gaiman-explains-why-franchises-like-star-wars-and-star-trek-have-lost-significant-portions-of-their-fan-bases/
|
|
|
Post by johnnypt on Jul 29, 2022 15:34:57 GMT -5
That's not to say a Death like the comics COULDN'T show up later. For those interested, give it a try and if they don't capture the feel and spirit of the comic, then hop off.
If the original writer is ok with it, you have it to take it for what its worth. I think Martin being ok with the change of Velaryons in House of the Dragon is his way of saying "I didn't give you much to work with in this regard, so I'll let a few of these slide".
|
|
|
Post by Von K on Jul 29, 2022 15:38:23 GMT -5
I ought to stress that I'm not taking a swing at you Terry just the contents of the article.
|
|
|
Post by Von K on Jul 29, 2022 19:28:37 GMT -5
That's not to say a Death like the comics COULDN'T show up later. For those interested, give it a try and if they don't capture the feel and spirit of the comic, then hop off. If the original writer is ok with it, you have it to take it for what its worth. You know how Elric of Melnibone, Erekose and Ilian of Garathorm are manifestations of the Eternal Champion, but would you be happy if an Elric film turned out to be about Ilian or Erekose? Or if Michael Moorcock rationalised that to fans by saying 'well it's still the Eternal Champion?' Neil Gaiman is perfectly correct when he stresses how the changes fit within the in universe logic of his creation. But he speaks from the abstract level of the concept and abstractions do not make for iconic creations that become popular in a visual medium - specific manifestations of those abstractions do - because our mundane minds need something consistent to identify with, both personally and visually. TV, like comics, is a very visual medium and the TV producers are trying to go against decades of iconic pop culture imagery from the specific appearances of the original comic version. The long time Sandman fans know and love those characters through their specific original manifestations. Sandman fan Andre from Midnight's Edge was ahead of the curve as usual. He predicted this would happen two years ago and his old vid still has much that is relevant today. Some of his comments seem extremely prophetic in retrospect: Is Neil Gaiman’s Sandman on Netflix going for broke?Summary: He's a big Gaiman Sandman fan. Goes through a bit of the history of the Sandman, praises Neil Gaiman as an excellent writer on the same platform as Alan Moore, describes a disastrous Y2k script that Gaiman rejected as awful, rolls on twenty years, is wary of Gaiman's mention of what he would do or change if Sandman was written today, surmises that the result would ironically be as awful as the dated Y2K script, admonishes creators who always want to meddle with their work (cites Lucas' changes to Han etc). His basic conclusion is the original Sandman is timeless, updating it to reflect modern politics would result is something little better than the Y2k script rather than reflect the greatness of the original. And now - here we are.
|
|
|
Post by Jason Aiken on Jul 29, 2022 23:26:48 GMT -5
That's not to say a Death like the comics COULDN'T show up later. For those interested, give it a try and if they don't capture the feel and spirit of the comic, then hop off. If the original writer is ok with it, you have it to take it for what its worth. I think Martin being ok with the change of Velaryons in House of the Dragon is his way of saying "I didn't give you much to work with in this regard, so I'll let a few of these slide". Yeah, some of these authors need to take a page out of Bernard Cornwell's book, too, when it comes to TV shows. "They don't tell me how to write the books, so I don't tell them how to write the TV show." Or something to that effect. Gaiman should not be engaging/defending the TV show. As a creator, it's probably best to keep your distance from media adaptations, just take the check and keep your head down. You can't win either way.
|
|
|
Post by terryallenuk on Jul 30, 2022 0:50:15 GMT -5
I ought to stress that I'm not taking a swing at you Terry just the contents of the article. No problem , I didn't take it as being aimed at me,
|
|
|
TV Shows
Jul 30, 2022 6:12:32 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Char-Vell on Jul 30, 2022 6:12:32 GMT -5
That's not to say a Death like the comics COULDN'T show up later. For those interested, give it a try and if they don't capture the feel and spirit of the comic, then hop off. If the original writer is ok with it, you have it to take it for what its worth. I think Martin being ok with the change of Velaryons in House of the Dragon is his way of saying "I didn't give you much to work with in this regard, so I'll let a few of these slide". Yeah, some of these authors need to take a page out of Bernard Cornwell's book, too, when it comes to TV shows. "They don't tell me how to write the books, so I don't tell them how to write the TV show." Or something to that effect. Gaiman should not be engaging/defending the TV show. As a creator, it's probably best to keep your distance from media adaptations, just take the check and keep your head down. You can't win either way. Verily! If someone ever adapted my work they could do as they pleased as long as I get them sweet dollah$.
|
|
|
Post by bonesaw on Jul 30, 2022 10:29:56 GMT -5
Verily! If someone ever adapted my work they could do as they pleased as long as I get them sweet dollah$.
I would be the exact opposite. Could care less about money in that situation. Far more that the extension of my original vision was creatively accurate.
I agree with Johnnypt that if the creator green-lights the adaptation, changes should be considered and not automatically dismissed. However within that second consideration, if there is no compelling reasoning....well that will always give me pause as it points to political agenda. In this case, that guy's video really made sense to me. Be hard pressed to find a comic book character about to get a first-time appearance in TV that is deserving of accuracy. That said, I still might go out of my way and break my rule of boycotting this kind of thing on the off chance that they do Death right in a second season. It just would have been significantly a more exciting experience this time around. I mean, isn't that the question? What exactly did they net gain with the lurching casting of Death? Would there have been a single person that would have complained about her being casted as white, compared to the appropriate backlash they had to deal with?
|
|
|
Post by Von K on Jul 30, 2022 20:08:35 GMT -5
That's not to say a Death like the comics COULDN'T show up later. For those interested, give it a try and if they don't capture the feel and spirit of the comic, then hop off. If the original writer is ok with it, you have it to take it for what its worth. I think Martin being ok with the change of Velaryons in House of the Dragon is his way of saying "I didn't give you much to work with in this regard, so I'll let a few of these slide". Yeah, some of these authors need to take a page out of Bernard Cornwell's book, too, when it comes to TV shows. "They don't tell me how to write the books, so I don't tell them how to write the TV show." Or something to that effect. Gaiman should not be engaging/defending the TV show. As a creator, it's probably best to keep your distance from media adaptations, just take the check and keep your head down. You can't win either way. Aye, The Witcher author Andzej Sapkowski seems to have much the same attitude as Bernard Cornwell and seems to be the happier for it. Very gallant of Neil Gaiman to offer himself as a human meatshield on behalf of Netflix to help deflect against the fan backlash, though there do seem to be rather more of those pesky 'ants' than he's making out, most of whom are actually very genuinely bewildered and disappointed fans - not the 'trolls' that they are being painted as by the MSM. I do feel that some of the deeper issues stem from the sheer scale of the concepts relating to the nature of Gaiman's Endless themselves. It may be that TV and film even with modern day cgi, is too limited to present the nature of such beings. Zelazny's Amberites and Moorcock's Chaos Lords and Dancer's at the End of Time are similar in that regard. Comics are a better medium for that perhaps, and prose better still.
|
|
|
TV Shows
Jul 31, 2022 18:19:27 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Jason Aiken on Jul 31, 2022 18:19:27 GMT -5
Yeah, some of these authors need to take a page out of Bernard Cornwell's book, too, when it comes to TV shows. "They don't tell me how to write the books, so I don't tell them how to write the TV show." Or something to that effect. Gaiman should not be engaging/defending the TV show. As a creator, it's probably best to keep your distance from media adaptations, just take the check and keep your head down. You can't win either way. Aye, The Witcher author Andzej Sapkowski seems to have much the same attitude as Bernard Cornwell and seems to be the happier for it. Yep, take the money, take the producer credit, get producers guild health insurance, and write whatever books you want, because your passive income and back catalog sales will be enough to support you. (Just ask GRRM!) When someone licenses your work, you become the licensor, not a creator. Sapkowski was ignorant as to how popular video games were so he signed a one-time sweetheart deal with CD Projekt Red for the Witcher rights, not knowing the games would become massive hits. Out of the goodness of their hearts they renegotiated with him, now he's happy with them. Same with the TV show, I'm sure he was smiling seeing all those past Witcher books in the Top 25 on Amazon when the Netflix show aired.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2022 3:42:15 GMT -5
Anyone managed to watch the new Sandman series?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2022 11:12:37 GMT -5
Aye, The Witcher author Andzej Sapkowski seems to have much the same attitude as Bernard Cornwell and seems to be the happier for it. Yep, take the money, take the producer credit, get producers guild health insurance, and write whatever books you want, because your passive income and back catalog sales will be enough to support you. (Just ask GRRM!) When someone licenses your work, you become the licensor, not a creator. Sapkowski was ignorant as to how popular video games were so he signed a one-time sweetheart deal with CD Projekt Red for the Witcher rights, not knowing the games would become massive hits. Out of the goodness of their hearts they renegotiated with him, now he's happy with them. Same with the TV show, I'm sure he was smiling seeing all those past Witcher books in the Top 25 on Amazon when the Netflix show aired.
They didn't renegotiate because they were being nice, its because in Poland the law states that if the deal becomes too one sided it can open you up to sue, even if the deal becomes one sided later on. I find it a bit ridiculous considering his books would have remained forgotten to the world at large if not for the games, but the law is the law.
Both parties must be happy though, they are making lots of money and there are talks about a future game so he must have no hard feelings towards the game company.
|
|