warriors of the steppe in movies, music and art

[Deleted]

Remains of a Bronze Age settlement dating back 3,500 years are unearthed on the ancient Silk Road by Chinese archaeologists, Conclusion

Ruan Rongqiu, one of the archaeologists who made the discovery, said the Bronze Age site measured about 500 square metres (5,381 square feet) in size.

'This type of Bronze Age ruins is relatively rare in the area of Ili,' Mr Ruan told state broadcaster CCTV.

'Therefore it could provide very important material for the research into the people living on the Eurasian Steppe in the Bronze Age.'


The site is situated east of the Ili River Valley in present-day Xinjiang (above), western China

Source:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8427189/Remains-Bronze-Age-settlement-dating-3-500-years-unearthed-ancient-Silk-Road.html

[Deleted]

Archeologists discover capital of Xiongnu Empire in central Mongolia
www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-07/18/c_139222374.htm


The front decoration of the roof of Dragon City's building with an inscription of ancient Chinese characters "Son of Heaven Chanyu"

This is the first time that a real object with the inscription "Son of Heaven Chanyu" has been found in the territory of Mongolia.

ULAN BATOR, July 18 (Xinhua) -- Dragon City or Longcheng City, capital of the Xiongnu Empire, has been discovered in central Mongolia, a Mongolian archeologist said Saturday.
"As a result of more than a decade of research on political center of the Xiongnu Empire, I am very happy that we have discovered and excavated the empire's capital Dragon City or Longcheng City," Tumur-Ochir Iderkhangai, leader of the archeological research team, told Xinhua.

"The front decoration of the roof of the city's building bears an inscription of ancient Chinese characters 'Son of Heaven Chanyu.' So, we believe that the city is the Xiongnu Empire's capital," said Iderkhangai, who is also associate professor at the Department of Archeology at the Ulaanbaatar State University.

This is the first time that a real object with the inscription "Son of Heaven Chanyu" has been found in the territory of Mongolia, the archeologist noted.
The city was first discovered in the Ulziit district of Arkhangai province in 2017, but its excavations did not begin until this year due to financial problems, Iderkhangai added

[Deleted]

Dr. Iderkhangai Tömör-Ochir and his team of archaeologists from Ulaanbaatar University have conducted years of research at an earthen walled site in the Khangai just north of the extensively-studied Xiongnu/Khunnu cemetery at Tamiryn Ulaan Khoshuu cemetery.

Man-made reservoir, pictured below. It is possible that a major function of Xiongnu/Khunnu earthen walled settlements (хэрэм) may have been water catchment, or at least for a section of the walled areas of the settlement.

[Deleted]

Some great photographs by Hamid Sardar of mainly the Dukha tribe in Mongolia, they are of Uriankhai origin, related to the great Mongol general Subutai. 

I turned down the opportunity to travel around the Khövsgöl area in the north of Mongolia in 2003. Every couple of weeks a group of tourists from UB (Ulaanbaatar) would venture into the wilderness in pursuit of these reindeer herders - at the time I thought it best to leave them alone. 

[Deleted]

Another post with photos of the Dukha people of Khövsgöl:







If you wanna see more:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5452089/Incredible-photographs-nomadic-people-central-Asia.html#comments

Wiki entry on Dukha:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukha_people

[Deleted]

... and the Kazakhs of the Bayan-Ölgii Aimag, Altai region in Mongolia:

[Von K]

Those pics are incredible Hun.

[Deleted]

Jul 26, 2020 14:12:57 GMT -5 Von K said:

Those pics are incredible Hun.

Yeah, some great pics by Sardar. 

I'm kinda considering picking up the book:



Hamid Sardar, Dark Heaven: Shamans & Hunters of Mongolia,  teNeues Media, 2016

Description:
Across the vast, wind-swept plains of Mongolia, nomadic tribes freely roam--only guided by the rhythmic changes of the seasons. Beginning in 2000, Hamid Sardar immersed himself in this fascinating people's way of life, following them throughout their daily rituals, hunting expeditions, and spiritual practices to capture their centuries-old practices. With a breathtaking mix of color and black-and-white images, Sardar's debut book is a poignant visual journey showcasing Mongolia's last traveling shamans and hunters. Especially fascinated by their spiritual relationship with land and animals, Sardar beautifully documents the wisdom, customs, and manners of an array of individuals, from horse-breeders and eagle masters to traditional healers. Accompanied by an informative text, this title is a must-have for anyone interested in anthropology, photography, and adventure.

www.amazon.co.uk/Dark-Heaven-Shamans-Hunters-Mongolia/dp/3832734082/
www.amazon.com/Dark-Heaven-Shamans-Hunters-Mongolia/dp/3832734082/

[Von K]

Expensive, but it's also a spectacular tome. There was one copy left on Amazon uk yesterday and now they are temporarily out of stock. Were you the one who snapped up that last copy?

[Deleted]

Jul 28, 2020 14:59:50 GMT -5 Von K said:

Expensive, but it's also a spectacular tome. There was one copy left on Amazon uk yesterday and now they are temporarily out of stock. Were you the one who snapped up that last copy?

Unfortunately, I did not pick up the last copy. They still have more on the way, at least I hope they do.

[Von K]

I recently finished reading Harold Lamb's biography of Chinggis Kha Khan. Did he have access to the teachings of Sun Tzu after he invaded China? Or were his tactics inherited from a tradition of centuries of tribal warfare added to ancient hunting techniques as modified by his own revisions?

[Deleted]

Aug 7, 2020 18:04:08 GMT -5 Von K said:

I recently finished reading Harold Lamb's biography of Chinggis Kha Khan. Did he have access to the teachings of Sun Tzu after he invaded China? Or were his tactics inherited from a tradition of centuries of tribal warfare added to ancient hunting techniques as modified by his own revisions?

Harold Lamb’s biography is pretty good and still holds up in comparison to most of the other biographies from those days and even some of the recent books. If only all history books could be written by ol' pulp writers 


Statue of Yelü Chucai at the Wuyi Mountains Tea Theme Park

There are several clues that can probably answer your second question. With regards to the first question, that could prove difficult to answer, I have no idea if Genghis Khan had access to Sun Tzu, if he did it was not recorded in the contemporary sources. I'll try an answer that one first.

Genghis Khan did employ the services of a Sinicized Khitan (Khitans spoke a Mongolic language) called Urtu Saqal by the Mongols, roughly translates as Long Beard in English (better known as Yelü Chucai in Chinese), in 1218, 3 years after the conquest of the Jin capital Beijing. The Tungusic speaking Jurchens (probably the ancestors of the Manchurians) established and ruled north-eastern China between 1115-1234 AD. From contemporary sources we can ascertain that Urtu Saqal was influential and did not shy away from introducing certain elements of Chinese culture/philosophy into the camp of Genghis Khan. Potentially, Urtu Saqal could have read out the teachings of Sun Tzu to the Great Khan. The Khitan ruled north-east China for a couple of centuries before the Jurchen (916–1125AD).

It is a difficult question to answer, Genghis cared little for the ways of the sedentary folk and did not bother entering the cities he conquered in China and Islamic Central Asia. The beautiful women and treasures were delivered to his encampment beyond the city walls where I’m certain Genghis Khan and the elite tribesman celebrated their victories in barbaric splendour. According to contemporary sources the only walled building we know Genghis Khan entered was the mosque in Bukhara, thinking it was a palace, he was told it is the ‘House of God’. According to the Persian historian Juviani he replied something like 'Tengri, the Eternal Sky God inhabited the entire cosmos and cannot be contained within a building.' He just did not get it.

Unfortunately, for sedentary civilization, the one thing he did understand is that the knowledge of civilisation could be useful for the Mongols and skilled city dwellers were spared during the slaughter. The Mongols, like previous nomadic empires cared little for the religions of civilization and allowed the survivors to follow their faith with the added safety net of Mongolian protection. Tolerance or indifference? I dunno.

Now, I kinda have to go back a bit to 1206, just after the Mongols defeated the Nestorian Christian Naiman tribe, a captured Uygur called Tata Tonga entered the service of the Great Khan. He introduced the Uygur script to the Mongols and it is still in use to this day. Here is another potential candidate that could have introduced Sun Tzu to the Great Khan. The Uygurs defeated the Turk Kaghanate in Mongolia in 744. Within a couple of decades they saved the Tang Dynasty from the Ansi Rebellion sacking the capital city Louyang in 757, among the chaos and looting the Khan converted to the relatively peace loving religion of Manichaeism. They abandoned the Runic script of the Turks and adopted the Sogdian script, they even built Kara Balghasun, a walled city along the Orkhon river in Mongolia (what traitors to the nomad cause). Eventually, they in turn were supplanted by the Kırgız in 840 AD. The Uygurs migrated to what is now north-western China, by the time of Genghis Khan some converted to Buddhism and they were seen as highly civlized by the Mongols, this was a source of resentment for Persian historians like Juvaini, to him they were idolators (Buddhists) and were too influential in the Mongol Empire for his liking. They managed to adapt very well after the fall of the Uygur Empire and were despicably civilized! They educated the first generation of Mongols and I hate to repeat myself, would after centuries of exposure to Chinese Culture remain another ideal candidate aware of the teachings of Sun Zu.

The Uygur script is introduced in 1206, Genghis wanted his kids and the Mongols to learn the new script. He knows what to discard from civilization and what is necessary for the Mongols in the future. Now, he’s a very busy man between between 1206 and his death in 1227. Did the Great Khan bother to learn how to read and write in Mongolian, at least? Was this information related to the Khan verbally? Or is he the illiterate barbarian the majority of historians think he is?

Unless we find a 13th century translation of Sun Tzu in Mongolian with an introduction informing the reader of the Great Khan's love of the book we'll probably never know.

Most historians acknowledge his intelligence. He was not raised in some nomadic court with the finest nomadic scholars to nurture his talent, there's no Aristotle tutoring Alexander in this story, His father died when he was only 9 years old. His uncle Targutai abandoned him and his family and left them to die in the vast grasslands of Mongolia with no clan or tribe for protection. How he survived on the open steppe with his mother Hoelun and siblings is a miracle in itself. The friendships he formed in those early years helped him establish the foundations of the Mongol Empire.

In my next post I’ll try an have a butcher’s at how he built upon the foundations and traditions of the previous Empires Of Mongolia, I hope 

[Deleted]

Aug 7, 2020 18:04:08 GMT -5 Von K said:

I recently finished reading Harold Lamb's biography of Chinggis Kha Khan. Did he have access to the teachings of Sun Tzu after he invaded China? Or were his tactics inherited from a tradition of centuries of tribal warfare added to ancient hunting techniques as modified by his own revisions?

Genghis Khan's grandson Kublai hunting by Liu Guandao


Here's an excerpt demonstrating the annual hunting exercise (sometimes called Nerge) introduced by Genghis Khan, at least according to Juviani:

He paid great attention to the chase and used to say that the hunting of wild beasts was a proper occupation for the commanders of armies ; and that instruction and training therein was incumbent on warriors and men-at-arms, [who should learn] how the huntsmen come up with the quarry, how they hunt it, in what manner they array themselves and after what fashion they surround it according as the party is great or small. For when the Mongols wish to go a-hunting, they first send out scouts to ascertain what kinds of game are available and whether it is scarce or abundant. And when they are not engaged in warfare, they are ever eager for the chase and encourage their armies thus to occupy themselves ; not for the sake of the game alone, but also in order that they may become accustomed and inured to hunting and familiarized with the handling of the bow and the endurance of hardships. Whenever the Khan sets out on the great hunt (which takes place at the beginning of the winter season), he issues orders that the troops stationed around his headquarters and in the neighbourhood of the ordus shall make preparations for the chase, mounting several men from each company often in accordance with instructions and distributing such equipment in the way of arms and other matters as are suitable for the locality where it is desired to hunt. The right wing, left wing and centre of the army are drawn up and entrusted to the great emirs; and they set out together with the Royal Ladies (khatun) and the concubines, as well as provisions of food and drink. For a month, or two, or three they form a hunting ring and drive the game slowly and gradually before them, taking care lest any escape from the ring. And if, unexpectedly, any game should break through, a minute inquiry is made into the cause and reason, and the commanders of thousands, hundreds and tens are clubbed therefor, and often even put to death. And if (for example) a man does not keep to the line (which they call Nerge) but takes a step forwards or backwards, severe punishment is dealt out to him and is never remitted. For two or three months, by day and by night, they drive the game in this manner, like a flock of sheep, and dispatch messages to the Khan to inform him of the condition of the quarry, its scarcity or plenty, whither it has come and from whence it has been started. Finally, when the ring has been contracted to a diameter of two or three parasangs, they bind ropes together and cast felts over them ; while the troops come to a halt all around the ring, standing shoulder to shoulder. The ring is now filled with the cries and commotion of every manner of game and the roaring and tumult of every kind of ferocious beast ; all thinking that the appointed hour of ' And when the mid leasts shall le gathered together’ is come ; lions becoming familiar with wild asses, hyaenas friendly with foxes, wolves intimate with hares. When the ring has been so much contracted that the wild beasts are unable to stir, first the Khan rides in together with some of his retinue ; then, after he has wearied of the sport, they dismount upon high ground in the centre of the Nerge to watch the princes likewise entering the ring, and after them, in due order, the Noyans, the commanders and the troops. Several days pass in this manner ; then, when nothing is left of the game but a few wounded and emaciated stragglers, old men and greybeards humbly approach the Khan, offer up prayers for his well-being and intercede for the lives of the remaining animals asking that they be suffered to depart to some place nearer to grass and water. Thereupon they collect together all the game that they have bagged; and if the enumeration of every species of animal proves impracticable they count only the beasts of prey and the wild asses. Pages 27-28, Juviani (translated by John Boyle), History of the World Conqueror , Manchester, 1958

[Von K]

Aug 8, 2020 6:00:37 GMT -5 @hunnu said:

Aug 7, 2020 18:04:08 GMT -5 Von K said:

I recently finished reading Harold Lamb's biography of Chinggis Kha Khan. Did he have access to the teachings of Sun Tzu after he invaded China? Or were his tactics inherited from a tradition of centuries of tribal warfare added to ancient hunting techniques as modified by his own revisions?

Harold Lamb’s biography is pretty good and still holds up in comparison to most of the other biographies from those days and even some of the recent books. If only all history books could be written by ol' pulp writers 


Statue of Yelü Chucai at the Wuyi Mountains Tea Theme Park

There are several clues that can probably answer your second question. With regards to the first question, that could prove difficult to answer, I have no idea if Genghis Khan had access to Sun Tzu, if he did it was not recorded in the contemporary sources. I'll try an answer that one first.

Genghis Khan did employ the services of a Sinicized Khitan (Khitans spoke a Mongolic language) called Urtu Saqal by the Mongols, roughly translates as Long Beard in English (better known as Yelü Chucai in Chinese), in 1218, 3 years after the conquest of the Jin capital Beijing. The Tungusic speaking Jurchens (probably the ancestors of the Manchurians) established and ruled north-eastern China between 1115-1234 AD. From contemporary sources we can ascertain that Urtu Saqal was influential and did not shy away from introducing certain elements of Chinese culture/philosophy into the camp of Genghis Khan. Potentially, Urtu Saqal could have read out the teachings of Sun Tzu to the Great Khan. The Khitan ruled north-east China for a couple of centuries before the Jurchen (916–1125AD).

It is a difficult question to answer, Genghis cared little for the ways of the sedentary folk and did not bother entering the cities he conquered in China and Islamic Central Asia. The beautiful women and treasures were delivered to his encampment beyond the city walls where I’m certain Genghis Khan and the elite tribesman celebrated their victories in barbaric splendour. According to contemporary sources the only walled building we know Genghis Khan entered was the mosque in Bukhara, thinking it was a palace, he was told it is the ‘House of God’. According to the Persian historian Juviani he replied something like 'Tengri, the Eternal Sky God inhabited the entire cosmos and cannot be contained within a building.' He just did not get it.

Unfortunately, for sedentary civilization, the one thing he did understand is that the knowledge of civilisation could be useful for the Mongols and skilled city dwellers were spared during the slaughter. The Mongols, like previous nomadic empires cared little for the religions of civilization and allowed the survivors to follow their faith with the added safety net of Mongolian protection. Tolerance or indifference? I dunno.

Now, I kinda have to go back a bit to 1206, just after the Mongols defeated the Nestorian Christian Naiman tribe, a captured Uygur called Tata Tonga entered the service of the Great Khan. He introduced the Uygur script to the Mongols and it is still in use to this day. Here is another potential candidate that could have introduced Sun Tzu to the Great Khan. The Uygurs defeated the Turk Kaghanate in Mongolia in 744. Within a couple of decades they saved the Tang Dynasty from the Ansi Rebellion sacking the capital city Louyang in 757, among the chaos and looting the Khan converted to the relatively peace loving religion of Manichaeism. They abandoned the Runic script of the Turks and adopted the Sogdian script, they even built Kara Balghasun, a walled city along the Orkhon river in Mongolia (what traitors to the nomad cause). Eventually, they in turn were supplanted by the Kırgız in 840 AD. The Uygurs migrated to what is now north-western China, by the time of Genghis Khan some converted to Buddhism and they were seen as highly civlized by the Mongols, this was a source of resentment for Persian historians like Juvaini, to him they were idolators (Buddhists) and were too influential in the Mongol Empire for his liking. They managed to adapt very well after the fall of the Uygur Empire and were despicably civilized! They educated the first generation of Mongols and I hate to repeat myself, would after centuries of exposure to Chinese Culture remain another ideal candidate aware of the teachings of Sun Zu.

The Uygur script is introduced in 1206, Genghis wanted his kids and the Mongols to learn the new script. He knows what to discard from civilization and what is necessary for the Mongols in the future. Now, he’s a very busy man between between 1206 and his death in 1227. Did the Great Khan bother to learn how to read and write in Mongolian, at least? Was this information related to the Khan verbally? Or is he the illiterate barbarian the majority of historians think he is?

Unless we find a 13th century translation of Sun Tzu in Mongolian with an introduction informing the reader of the Great Khan's love of the book we'll probably never know.

Most historians acknowledge his intelligence. He was not raised in some nomadic court with the finest nomadic scholars to nurture his talent, there's no Aristotle tutoring Alexander in this story, His father died when he was only 9 years old. His uncle Targutai abandoned him and his family and left them to die in the vast grasslands of Mongolia with no clan or tribe for protection. How he survived on the open steppe with his mother Hoelun and siblings is a miracle in itself. The friendships he formed in those early years helped him establish the foundations of the Mongol Empire.

In my next post I’ll try an have a butcher’s at how he built upon the foundations and traditions of the previous Empires Of Mongolia, I hope 

Thanks for the awesomely detailed feedback Hun. I knew you were the right man to ask.

So far I'm enjoying Harold Lamb's biographies. His combination of psychological insight, fictional flair and historical grounding makes for compelling reading.

[Von K]

Aug 8, 2020 7:24:23 GMT -5 @hunnu said:

Aug 7, 2020 18:04:08 GMT -5 Von K said:

I recently finished reading Harold Lamb's biography of Chinggis Kha Khan. Did he have access to the teachings of Sun Tzu after he invaded China? Or were his tactics inherited from a tradition of centuries of tribal warfare added to ancient hunting techniques as modified by his own revisions?

Genghis Khan's grandson Kublai hunting by Liu Guandao


Here's an excerpt demonstrating the annual hunting exercise (sometimes called Nerge) introduced by Genghis Khan, at least according to Juviani:

He paid great attention to the chase and used to say that the hunting of wild beasts was a proper occupation for the commanders of armies ; and that instruction and training therein was incumbent on warriors and men-at-arms, [who should learn] how the huntsmen come up with the quarry, how they hunt it, in what manner they array themselves and after what fashion they surround it according as the party is great or small. For when the Mongols wish to go a-hunting, they first send out scouts to ascertain what kinds of game are available and whether it is scarce or abundant. And when they are not engaged in warfare, they are ever eager for the chase and encourage their armies thus to occupy themselves ; not for the sake of the game alone, but also in order that they may become accustomed and inured to hunting and familiarized with the handling of the bow and the endurance of hardships. Whenever the Khan sets out on the great hunt (which takes place at the beginning of the winter season), he issues orders that the troops stationed around his headquarters and in the neighbourhood of the ordus shall make preparations for the chase, mounting several men from each company often in accordance with instructions and distributing such equipment in the way of arms and other matters as are suitable for the locality where it is desired to hunt. The right wing, left wing and centre of the army are drawn up and entrusted to the great emirs; and they set out together with the Royal Ladies (khatun) and the concubines, as well as provisions of food and drink. For a month, or two, or three they form a hunting ring and drive the game slowly and gradually before them, taking care lest any escape from the ring. And if, unexpectedly, any game should break through, a minute inquiry is made into the cause and reason, and the commanders of thousands, hundreds and tens are clubbed therefor, and often even put to death. And if (for example) a man does not keep to the line (which they call Nerge) but takes a step forwards or backwards, severe punishment is dealt out to him and is never remitted. For two or three months, by day and by night, they drive the game in this manner, like a flock of sheep, and dispatch messages to the Khan to inform him of the condition of the quarry, its scarcity or plenty, whither it has come and from whence it has been started. Finally, when the ring has been contracted to a diameter of two or three parasangs, they bind ropes together and cast felts over them ; while the troops come to a halt all around the ring, standing shoulder to shoulder. The ring is now filled with the cries and commotion of every manner of game and the roaring and tumult of every kind of ferocious beast ; all thinking that the appointed hour of ' And when the mid leasts shall le gathered together’ is come ; lions becoming familiar with wild asses, hyaenas friendly with foxes, wolves intimate with hares. When the ring has been so much contracted that the wild beasts are unable to stir, first the Khan rides in together with some of his retinue ; then, after he has wearied of the sport, they dismount upon high ground in the centre of the Nerge to watch the princes likewise entering the ring, and after them, in due order, the Noyans, the commanders and the troops. Several days pass in this manner ; then, when nothing is left of the game but a few wounded and emaciated stragglers, old men and greybeards humbly approach the Khan, offer up prayers for his well-being and intercede for the lives of the remaining animals asking that they be suffered to depart to some place nearer to grass and water. Thereupon they collect together all the game that they have bagged; and if the enumeration of every species of animal proves impracticable they count only the beasts of prey and the wild asses. Pages 27-28, Juviani (translated by John Boyle), History of the World Conqueror , Manchester, 1958

Thanks Hun. This is very similar to Lamb’s account that was no doubt mostly based on a previous translation of this source, spiced with a few details from other sources. Juvaini’s History isn’t mentioned in the main text, notes or index of Lamb’s version but it is included in the bibliography.