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Post by Aryeh on Feb 13, 2018 6:57:23 GMT -5
Except that is not Robert E. Howard's Conan. Because Howard's Conan doesn't mind that he ends up crucified, if that is the price for speaking the truth while others, who think only of themselves, are silent. Of course he's speaking the truth. He's Conan the Cimmerian. He wouldn't lie to save his ass. But that has nothing to do with what I wrote. Conan is not somebody whose trying to make the world a better place. He's just doing what he wants to do and he's doing it well. LOL, no; read the story again, he is defending the legitimate order against the impostor.
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Post by moonlightshadow on Feb 13, 2018 7:04:43 GMT -5
I'm tired of this racism discussion. IF there is any racism in the Conan yarns it can be easily avoided in any adaptation. Then stop posting about it Huh? It wasn't me who was bringing up racism. I agree that there are more important things and I wrote several posts about that. Others prefer to discuss Howard's alleged racism and the KKK. Maybe this can be discussed in the REH subforum but it will certainly be without me.
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Post by moonlightshadow on Feb 13, 2018 7:21:55 GMT -5
Of course he's speaking the truth. He's Conan the Cimmerian. He wouldn't lie to save his ass. But that has nothing to do with what I wrote. Conan is not somebody whose trying to make the world a better place. He's just doing what he wants to do and he's doing it well. LOL, no; read the story again, he is defending the legitimate order against the impostor. Jesus, I know the story. You wanna discuss Conan's motivation in "A Witch Shall Be Born" now? He's a captain of the queen's guard and he's doing what he always does: he's doing his job well. How about not being so confrontative but telling us what YOU think is important in adapting the stories? I mean besides having good actors, special effects and music. We all want that. What must the creators of the show do to make us fans feel that we are watching an actual adaptation of Robert E. Howard's Conan and not some generic barbarian? "Game of Thrones" is a reasonably close adaptation of the Martin novels. "The Lord of the Rings" was a reasonably close adaptation of Tolkien. I don 't know about you but I would like to see a Conan series that is comparable to those two. Sure, they took liberties with the story and the characters, especially in LOTR but the spirit of Tolkien and Martin still shine through. How can the Conan series keep the spirit of Howard? Is it even possible to keep the spirit of Howard AND be financially successful? These are the questions I'm really interested in.
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Post by Aryeh on Feb 13, 2018 7:39:09 GMT -5
Moonlightshadow, read what you wrote. You said you want Conan to be "like he is Howard's stories -- fighting not for greater good, but instead for his own pleasure" (I am paraphrasing you, but this is the point of your previous posts). However, the fact is this, what you say, simply isn't true because no one stands up and confronts a mightier force, and risks his own life, because of one's pleasure (there is no pleasure in death). But Conan does just that in one of the stories. Meaning: what I said earlier, but now with emphasis on the fact that Howard's Conan is not a glorified pig, who thinks only of himself, only of how to satisfy his needs.
If he was like that, it could perhaps be a porn, or a comedy with Woody Allen (which could also be good, but still, then it would not be Howard's Conan).
Regarding your objection that Howard's racism is discussed here, in this thread: let me remind you that so far the only reaction to announcement announcing this TV series is in the making, was from 'the Guardian', and it was questioning whether there should be a series based on Howard's Conan stories or not, because of Howard's sexism and racism. THAT is why those topics are being discussed here -- I thought it was obvious.
By the way, funny how you continue to use "alleged" in spite of all examples that were pointed out by Lordyam and myself. There is something symptomatic in the use of that word when certain things are mentioned. After WWII neo-Nazis used that word a lot when referring to the Holocaust as the "alleged Holocaust" and it continues being used today, for example when the supporters of those Serbs who are condemned of war crimes in Hague say "alleged war crimes". But I guess I shouldn't be surprised by now, because someone else here was referring to a KKK Grand Wizard and said this is an example of anti-fascism. Anything goes I guess...
Regarding what I want from the series... First, I want to actually see it, I don't want it to be like King Conan: Crown of Iron, nor like The Legend of Conan -- something which was talked about for years, and then nothing came out of it. Beside that, I am willing to trust the creators know what they are doing, and I am hoping that they will surprise me, and that after seeing their Conan, something I didn't know before about Conan, but which nevertheless is intriguing for me, will be revealed to me upon viewing their creation.
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Post by moonlightshadow on Feb 13, 2018 8:07:53 GMT -5
Moonlightshadow, read what you wrote. You said you want Conan to be "like he is Howard's stories -- fighting not for greater good, but instead for his own pleasure" (I am paraphrasing you, but this is the point of your previous posts). However, the fact is this, what you say, simply isn't true because no one stands up and confronts a mightier force, and risks his own life, because of one's pleasure (there is no pleasure in death). But Conan does just that in one of the stories. Meaning: what I said earlier, but now with emphasis on the fact that Howard's Conan is not a glorified pig, who thinks only of himself, only of how to satisfy his needs. If he was like that, it could perhaps be a porn, or a comedy with Woody Allen (which could also be good, but still, then it would not be Howard's Conan). Regarding your objection that Howard's racism is discussed here, in this thread: let me remind you that so far the only reaction to announcement announcing this TV series is in the making, was from 'the Guardian', and it was questioning whether there should be a series based on Howard's Conan stories or not, because of Howard's sexism and racism. THAT is why those topics are being discussed here -- I thought it was obvious. By the way, funny how you continue to use "alleged" in spite of all examples that were pointed out by Lordyam and myself. There is something symptomatic in the use of that word when certain things are mentioned. After WWII neo-Nazis used that word a lot when referring to the Holocaust as the "alleged Holocaust" and it continues being used today, for example when the supporters of those Serbs who are condemned of war crimes in Hague say "alleged war crimes". But I guess I shouldn't be surprised by now, because someone else here was referring to a KKK Grand Wizard and said this is an example of anti-fascism. Anything goes I guess... Please have your political discussions elsewhere. As for Conan's character and motivations can we at least agree that he's a barbarian who abhors civilization, who beliefs in his own sense of honor and moral instead of the laws made by corrupt kings, wo loves easy women, easy money and wine, whose primary goal is to live life to the fullest? Because if we don't agree on that there's not much we can talk about.
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Post by Aryeh on Feb 13, 2018 8:32:21 GMT -5
Please have your political discussions elsewhere. As for Conan's character and motivations can we at least agree that he's a barbarian who abhors civilization, who beliefs in his own sense of honor and moral instead of the laws made by corrupt kings, wo loves easy women, easy money and wine, whose primary goal is to live life to the fullest? Because if we don't agree on that there's not much we can talk about. As Robp already said in this thread: stop complaining about leftists, feminists, etc. and we'll stop discussing politics. I can agree with you that what you say in this post is something that can be found in Howard's stories, and that is something Conan says about himself. However, it's one thing what someone says about himself and something else what's really there. Especially in works of fiction: there is always some kind of destiny, and hero always knows very little about himself. And it's been that way since Oedipus, who believed he was a normal guy, and then look what he turned out to be! And Oedipus is a model for all heroes according to numerous theoreticians of drama. Conan says he's not after anything big, but he ends up being a king, then saving his kingdom from catastrophe. He is after easy women, and yet both Belit and Valeria are almost mother-figures for him, in a sense that in certain aspects they seem more mature then him (Valeria more then Belit though). Etc. I remember again when Dirk Blackman was writing his adaptation of A Witch Shall Be Born, and how he complained there is no Conan arch in Howard's stories. And it is because Howard didn't need one -- those were almost all short stories. Film, or TV series is something else -- they need an arch there. And this, what the creators of the announced series said so far, that Conan will be in search for his own place in a world which keeps rejecting him -- that sounds promising to me. Because, if I had to say what Conan is for me in one sentence, I'd say: no longer nature, not yet civilization. Meaning: he is no longer one with nature the way animals are, or the way Adam in the Bible and later Tarzan in novels and films is; but he is distrustful of civilization, and rightly so, because civilization can be corrupt, decadent, etc., or it can hide its true face behind something seemingly progressive (the 'Gattaca', 1997, movie scenario). He is always out of place -- even when he becomes king, there are those who don't approve of him because he is not of noble origins. So, I believe Condal and Sapochnik are onto something, and so far, I am willing to trust them.
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Post by thedarkman on Feb 13, 2018 9:14:39 GMT -5
As a Howard fan, I’d love to see the series set up like Howard’s original Conan tales; random, unconnected stories with no overall story arch. However, due to the medium being used , and the fact that producers need the series to appeal to the broadest viewing market, I can accept the changes required. Keep Conan as a rogue with a rough moral code rather than white hat hero with a quest and I will be happy. Make him a bit of a bastard and try to stick to the original tales for inspiration.
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Post by johnnypt on Feb 13, 2018 9:34:33 GMT -5
As a Howard fan, I’d love to see the series set up like Howard’s original Conan tales; random, unconnected stories with no overall story arch. However, due to the medium being used , and the fact that producers need the series to appeal to the broadest viewing market, I can accept the changes required. Keep Conan as a rogue with a rough moral code rather than white hat hero with a quest and I will be happy. Make him a bit of a bastard and try to stick to the original tales for inspiration.
When you look at it, there wasn't an arc specifically, but there was overall: a barbarian becomes a king. They do need to avoid the "his whole life led to this moment" trope, it didn't. It just kind of worked out that way. The only series I can remember recently that did a kind of skipping around was The Indiana Jones Chronicles, which did things exactly the way Howard described it: an old adventurer randomly tells tales about the events of his life. I'm not sure if that sort of "shuffle mode" TV series would work, but they don't necessarily have to go chronological either. Doing stories/seasons in groups could work if done correctly.
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Post by thedarkman on Feb 13, 2018 9:59:34 GMT -5
As a Howard fan, I’d love to see the series set up like Howard’s original Conan tales; random, unconnected stories with no overall story arch. However, due to the medium being used , and the fact that producers need the series to appeal to the broadest viewing market, I can accept the changes required. Keep Conan as a rogue with a rough moral code rather than white hat hero with a quest and I will be happy. Make him a bit of a bastard and try to stick to the original tales for inspiration.
When you look at it, there wasn't an arc specifically, but there was overall: a barbarian becomes a king. They do need to avoid the "his whole life led to this moment" trope, it didn't. It just kind of worked out that way. The only series I can remember recently that did a kind of skipping around was The Indiana Jones Chronicles, which did things exactly the way Howard described it: an old adventurer randomly tells tales about the events of his life. I'm not sure if that sort of "shuffle mode" TV series would work, but they don't necessarily have to go chronological either. Doing stories/seasons in groups could work if done correctly.
I agree. It wasn’t his ultimate goal, but it just kinda worked out that way. It’s not the destination but the journey that is appealing. Yes he became king of the mightiest kingdom of the Hyborian Age, but it was a heck of a ride on the way there!
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Post by Char-Vell on Feb 13, 2018 10:16:16 GMT -5
As a Howard fan, I’d love to see the series set up like Howard’s original Conan tales; random, unconnected stories with no overall story arch. However, due to the medium being used , and the fact that producers need the series to appeal to the broadest viewing market, I can accept the changes required. Keep Conan as a rogue with a rough moral code rather than white hat hero with a quest and I will be happy. Make him a bit of a bastard and try to stick to the original tales for inspiration.
When you look at it, there wasn't an arc specifically, but there was overall: a barbarian becomes a king. They do need to avoid the "his whole life led to this moment" trope, it didn't. It just kind of worked out that way. The only series I can remember recently that did a kind of skipping around was The Indiana Jones Chronicles, which did things exactly the way Howard described it: an old adventurer randomly tells tales about the events of his life. I'm not sure if that sort of "shuffle mode" TV series would work, but they don't necessarily have to go chronological either. Doing stories/seasons in groups could work if done correctly.
I'd prefer Shuffle mode to a long decompressed story arc. I feel Conan works better that way.
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Post by moonlightshadow on Feb 13, 2018 10:36:11 GMT -5
As a Howard fan, I’d love to see the series set up like Howard’s original Conan tales; random, unconnected stories with no overall story arch. However, due to the medium being used , and the fact that producers need the series to appeal to the broadest viewing market, I can accept the changes required. Keep Conan as a rogue with a rough moral code rather than white hat hero with a quest and I will be happy. Make him a bit of a bastard and try to stick to the original tales for inspiration. I agree 100%.
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Post by moonlightshadow on Feb 13, 2018 11:14:43 GMT -5
Please have your political discussions elsewhere. As for Conan's character and motivations can we at least agree that he's a barbarian who abhors civilization, who beliefs in his own sense of honor and moral instead of the laws made by corrupt kings, wo loves easy women, easy money and wine, whose primary goal is to live life to the fullest? Because if we don't agree on that there's not much we can talk about. As Robp already said in this thread: stop complaining about leftists, feminists, etc. and we'll stop discussing politics. I can agree with you that what you say in this post is something that can be found in Howard's stories, and that is something Conan says about himself. However, it's one thing what someone says about himself and something else what's really there. Especially in works of fiction: there is always some kind of destiny, and hero always knows very little about himself. And it's been that way since Oedipus, who believed he was a normal guy, and then look what he turned out to be! And Oedipus is a model for all heroes according to numerous theoreticians of drama. Conan says he's not after anything big, but he ends up being a king, then saving his kingdom from catastrophe. He is after easy women, and yet both Belit and Valeria are almost mother-figures for him, in a sense that in certain aspects they seem more mature then him (Valeria more then Belit though). Etc. I remember again when Dirk Blackman was writing his adaptation of A Witch Shall Be Born, and how he complained there is no Conan arch in Howard's stories. And it is because Howard didn't need one -- those were almost all short stories. Film, or TV series is something else -- they need an arch there. And this, what the creators of the announced series said so far, that Conan will be in search for his own place in a world which keeps rejecting him -- that sounds promising to me. Because, if I had to say what Conan is for me in one sentence, I'd say: no longer nature, not yet civilization. Meaning: he is no longer one with nature the way animals are, or the way Adam in the Bible and later Tarzan in novels and films is; but he is distrustful of civilization, and rightly so, because civilization can be corrupt, decadent, etc., or it can hide its true face behind something seemingly progressive (the 'Gattaca', 1997, movie scenario). He is always out of place -- even when he becomes king, there are those who don't approve of him because he is not of noble origins. So, I believe Condal and Sapochnik are onto something, and so far, I am willing to trust them. Finally something on which we can find a common ground. I'm sure that the series will have a story arc as you say. For dramatic reasons it is inevitable. At the same time this will take away from the "Howard feeling" for me because in the stories Conan is usually stumbling into a random adventure. He does not have a "purpose". Also he's not changed by what he's experiencing. Sure, he's getting more experienced as he ages. Sure, Belit and Valeria have a special place in his heart. But he's not like Luke Skywalker who starts out as a young and naive farmer's son who becomes the saviour of the galaxy and everything he does brings him a bit closer to his "destiny". Conan is a mean MF in the first story and he's still a mean MF in the last. Yet a TV series will certainly try to tell a "bigger story", I understand that. I just hope they don't go too far and keep some of the randomness of Conan's life. It's the same as with the problematic parts of Howard's stories that we have talked about. My attitude is: Change it as much as necessary and as little as possible. It IS a very fine line though. I'm cautiously optimistic that they won't make a simple do-gooder with muscles out of Conan. As I have said, in "Game of Thrones" and especially in "Vikings" some characters have done terrible things (far worse than anything Conan does in the stories) and audiences still loved them. TV series and audiences have become very sophisticated. I want Conan to stretch the envelope of what is possible on TV even a little bit more instead of playing it safe like Disney does with Star Wars.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2018 12:18:24 GMT -5
Here's something I posted earlier on the Why Hollywood doesn't "get" Conan thread concerning Conan's characteristics and a possible approach for a potential movie/TV series. In the Conan yarns, at times, it feels like civilization itself is embarking on the Hero's Journey, and individual characters are a manifestation of that civilization. For example, Conan is a mentor in Beyond the Black River and in the Black Stranger. Conan is one step ahead of all the characters, he is just as comfortable in the Pictish world as he is in the company of pirates, or as a mercenary for the Aquilonians. Conan's definitely the master (mentor) in these situations.
I think the concept of time and how fleeting these fabulous shinning kingdoms are is an important theme in REH's work. Eventually, the Hyborian Age will come crashing down and disappear, all their great achievements will be forgotten. I think Conan understands this inevitability, he is in synchronization with it, in this way the knowledge he acquires during his life is used effectively. Civilization, can dismiss knowledge that runs contrary to their established ideas, institutions, laws, culture or traditions. Maybe, Conan, even found the traditions of his own people too restrictive in terms of his individualism (tribal societies can be even more restrictive and complex than so-called Civilized societies). Conan's the only character who is in on the joke in these yarns and he embraces it - he loves the taste of sweet wine, he loves beautiful women, he loves to fight, he's loyal to his friends, he knows no matter how sweet life is; it is not forever! Complex civilizations of the Hyborian Age are constantly clinging, scratching and fighting a losing battle. Conan's also instinctive and unpredictable - these characteristics are terrifying to any civilization.
Here's the link to the Why Hollywood doesn't "get" Conan thread by Wulfhere: swordsofreh.proboards.com/thread/422/why-hollywood-get-conan?page=1
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2018 16:31:29 GMT -5
Let's not forget that Conan's ultimate fate may not be as King of Aquilonia according to Robert E. Howard's letter to P.S. Miller, dated March 10, 1936 .
He may become King, but, he does eventually reject the trappings of civilization. He shows no interest in forming a Dynasty.
Excerpts from REH's letter concerning Conan's eventual fate:
...As for Conan's eventual fate - frankly I can't predict it. In writing these yarns I've always felt less as creating them than as if I were simply chronicling his adventures as he told them to me. That's why they skip about so much, without following a regular order. The average adventurer, telling tales of a wild life at random, seldom follows any ordered plan, but narrates episodes widely separated by space and years, as they occur to him.
... Conan was about forty when he seized the crown of Aquilonia, and was about forty-four or forty-five at the time of "The Hour of the Dragon." He had no male heir at that time, because he had never bothered to formally make some woman his queen, and the sons of concubines, of which he had a goodly number, were not recognized as heirs to the throne.
He was, I think, king of Aquilonia for many years, in a turbulent and unquiet reign, when the Hyborian civilization had reached its most magnificent high-tide, and every king had imperial ambitions. At first he fought on the defensive, but I am of the opinion that at last he was forced into wars of aggression as a matter of self-preservation. Whether he succeeded in conquering a world-wide empire, or perished in the attempt, I do not know.
He travelled widely, not only before his kingship, but after he was king. He travelled to Khitai and Hyrkania, and to the even less known regions north of the latter and south of the former. He even visited a nameless continent in the western hemisphere, and roamed among the islands adjacent to it. How much of this roaming will get into print, I cannot foretell with any accuracy. I was much interested in your remarks concerning findings on the Yamal Peninsula, the first time I had heard anything about that. Doubtless Conan had first-hand acquaintance with the people who evolved the culture described, or their ancestors, at least.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2018 17:02:23 GMT -5
'He was, I think, king of Aquilonia for many years, in a turbulent and unquiet reign, when the Hyborian civilization had reached its most magnificent high-tide, and every king had imperial ambitions. At first he fought on the defensive, but I am of the opinion that at last he was forced into wars of aggression as a matter of self-preservation. Whether he succeeded in conquering a world-wide empire, or perished in the attempt, I do not know.' REH to P.S. Miller (March 10, 1936) Just thinking, as an intro before each Conan adventure, not episode - maybe, an incredibly beautiful, mature, but, not too old, Zenobia relating the exploits of Conan to her kids could be an interesting approach? It would also make it easier for the series to skip to different eras of Conan's life. As the series progresses Conan may seem invincible to the audience, but, eventually we see the tomb/memorial of the once mighty King of Aquilonia in an intro or at the end of the first season. This will result in the depiction of Conan not as invincible as we once thought, with one mighty, fatal, stroke Conan becomes a more intriguing/relatable character. May CROM forgive me for typing such words
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