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Post by johnnypt on Feb 13, 2018 20:38:29 GMT -5
'He was, I think, king of Aquilonia for many years, in a turbulent and unquiet reign, when the Hyborian civilization had reached its most magnificent high-tide, and every king had imperial ambitions. At first he fought on the defensive, but I am of the opinion that at last he was forced into wars of aggression as a matter of self-preservation. Whether he succeeded in conquering a world-wide empire, or perished in the attempt, I do not know.' REH to P.S. Miller (March 10, 1936) Just thinking, as an intro before each Conan adventure, not episode - maybe, an incredibly beautiful, mature, but, not too old, Zenobia relating the exploits of Conan to her kids could be an interesting approach? It would also make it easier for the series to skip to different eras of Conan's life. As the series progresses Conan may seem invincible to the audience, but, eventually we see the tomb/memorial of the once mighty King of Aquilonia in an intro or at the end of the first season. This will result in the depiction of Conan not as invincible as we once thought, with one mighty, fatal, stroke Conan becomes a more intriguing/relatable character. May CROM forgive me for typing such words I had a similar idea of having an older Zenobia be the "chronicler", sort of related to Busiek's idea of having her be the author of Nemedian Chronicles. I'd keep her identity a secret though, for at least the first season.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2018 4:00:25 GMT -5
'He was, I think, king of Aquilonia for many years, in a turbulent and unquiet reign, when the Hyborian civilization had reached its most magnificent high-tide, and every king had imperial ambitions. At first he fought on the defensive, but I am of the opinion that at last he was forced into wars of aggression as a matter of self-preservation. Whether he succeeded in conquering a world-wide empire, or perished in the attempt, I do not know.' REH to P.S. Miller (March 10, 1936) Just thinking, as an intro before each Conan adventure, not episode - maybe, an incredibly beautiful, mature, but, not too old, Zenobia relating the exploits of Conan to her kids could be an interesting approach? It would also make it easier for the series to skip to different eras of Conan's life. As the series progresses Conan may seem invincible to the audience, but, eventually we see the tomb/memorial of the once mighty King of Aquilonia in an intro or at the end of the first season. This will result in the depiction of Conan not as invincible as we once thought, with one mighty, fatal, stroke Conan becomes a more intriguing/relatable character. May CROM forgive me for typing such words I had a similar idea of having an older Zenobia be the "chronicler", sort of related to Busiek's idea of having her be the author of Nemedian Chronicles. I'd keep her identity a secret though, for at least the first season. Sounds interesting. I like the idea of Zenobia as the Chronicler - I think you're correct about revealing her identity later on and an even later revelation of Conan's Death. I think it would be fascinating if she outlived Conan; a Conan that fell in battle defending Aquilonia. I think it would add an extra dimension to the story and character and it's something that has not been explored before.
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Post by robp on Feb 14, 2018 4:32:26 GMT -5
Didn't Zenobia die in childbirth, or was that something from the comics? I did like the DH mechanism of having the vizier reading the Nemedian Chronicles about Conan to his prince. "Know, O Prince..." I thought that worked well and established a sense of history too
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Post by Char-Vell on Feb 14, 2018 7:27:57 GMT -5
'He was, I think, king of Aquilonia for many years, in a turbulent and unquiet reign, when the Hyborian civilization had reached its most magnificent high-tide, and every king had imperial ambitions. At first he fought on the defensive, but I am of the opinion that at last he was forced into wars of aggression as a matter of self-preservation. Whether he succeeded in conquering a world-wide empire, or perished in the attempt, I do not know.' REH to P.S. Miller (March 10, 1936) Just thinking, as an intro before each Conan adventure, not episode - maybe, an incredibly beautiful, mature, but, not too old, Zenobia relating the exploits of Conan to her kids could be an interesting approach? It would also make it easier for the series to skip to different eras of Conan's life. As the series progresses Conan may seem invincible to the audience, but, eventually we see the tomb/memorial of the once mighty King of Aquilonia in an intro or at the end of the first season. This will result in the depiction of Conan not as invincible as we once thought, with one mighty, fatal, stroke Conan becomes a more intriguing/relatable character. May CROM forgive me for typing such words I like it!
I always thought it would be a good story to have King Conan confronted by a group of his illegitimate children from all over the world.
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Post by zarono on Feb 14, 2018 7:48:24 GMT -5
A Nemedian Chronicles featurette on the kingdoms of the hyborian Age and the cataclysms that reshape REH's world over time would be a good way to introduce the depth of the setting to people who are only casual fans of the movies or comics.
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Post by johnnypt on Feb 14, 2018 8:06:23 GMT -5
Didn't Zenobia die in childbirth, or was that something from the comics? I did like the DH mechanism of having the vizier reading the Nemedian Chronicles about Conan to his prince. "Know, O Prince..." I thought that worked well and established a sense of history too
That was Marvel's idea, she died giving birth to either Radegund or Taurus.
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Post by johnnypt on Feb 14, 2018 8:07:28 GMT -5
A Nemedian Chronicles featurette on the kingdoms of the hyborian Age and the cataclysms that reshape REH's world over time would be a good way to introduce the depth of the setting to people who are only casual fans of the movies or comics.
Tie it in along the way, maybe in the pilot for the Kull spinoff
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Post by Aryeh on Feb 14, 2018 11:42:21 GMT -5
Absolutely the Conan vs Thak battle must happen! Man-Eaters of Zamboula should be done too as the battle with Baal-Pteor is iconic, the cannibals in the story could be changed to some mysterious lost race the way Peter Jackson did with the Skull Island natives in his version of King Kong, not offensive to anyone and keeps the basic plot intact. I think as long as the cannibals are designed to be visually interesting and frightening it would work well. However, the dark-skinned race with blue eyes is not Peter Jackson's artistic invention; instead, it is a quote, quoting John Milius' Conan the Barbarian (the unforgettable blue-eyed Thulsa Doom). Feels kinda funny saying this on a Conan forum (since one expects everyone saw and still remembers the Milius film), but since Jackson was credited with this in the post I quote, I had to mention the thing in question is but an homage -- to Conan the Barbarian.
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Post by Aryeh on Feb 14, 2018 11:59:36 GMT -5
"Know, O Prince..." is a direct reference to 1001 Nights. There are many versions of this in 1001 Nights stories; for example: "Know, O thou Ifrit, that in days of yore and in ages long gone before, a King called Yunan reigned over the city of Fars of the land of the Roum..."
As such, it has double significance.
First, 1001 Nights contains many stories in which a common man -- a man not of blue blood -- goes through numerous fantastic adventures (Sinbad being one of the most famous characters from there). This is important when observed in the light of what influenced Robert E. Howard's creation of Conan: Conan is a barbarian, a low-born, and not, for example, an heir to the throne, like Arthur Pendragon, or similar fantasy characters.
Second: there is that well known scene from The Whole Wide World movie, which is based on Howard's biography, where Howard says Conan himself appears during the night, and then stands behind him with a large battle axe, forcing Howard to write Conan stories. The 1001 Nights frame-story represents a woman, Scheherazade, who is forced to tell stories to her ruler, because with each new story she tells, she is postponing her death sentence. So, this, "Know, O Prince..." has this baggage of drama behind it, as in: one tells stories so that one can avoid certain death; it is not the lullaby's: "Once upon a time..."
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Post by zarono on Feb 14, 2018 13:05:48 GMT -5
Absolutely the Conan vs Thak battle must happen! Man-Eaters of Zamboula should be done too as the battle with Baal-Pteor is iconic, the cannibals in the story could be changed to some mysterious lost race the way Peter Jackson did with the Skull Island natives in his version of King Kong, not offensive to anyone and keeps the basic plot intact. I think as long as the cannibals are designed to be visually interesting and frightening it would work well. However, the dark-skinned race with blue eyes is not Peter Jackson's artistic invention; instead, it is a quote, quoting John Milius' Conan the Barbarian (the unforgettable blue-eyed Thulsa Doom). Feels kinda funny saying this on a Conan forum (since one expects everyone saw and still remembers the Milius film), but since Jackson was credited with this in the post I quote, I had to mention the thing in question is but an homage -- to Conan the Barbarian. I've heard Milius say that Thulsa Doom was given blue eyes to represent that he was part of lost race in the dvd commentary too but I have no way to know if Jackson was doing an homage to Milius's version of Thulsa Doom. But the context of my statement was that I do think the islanders in 2005 Kong were designed to purposely not resemble any specific living people to avoid negative stereotypes, and I think it's a good idea because it doesn't interfere with the overall plot of the story. The reason I used Jackson's movie as an example because the situation in the plot is somewhat similar to Man-eaters of Zamboula whereas Milius's use was different, I don't think he wanted to avoid a stereotype I think he wanted Thulsa Doom to have an exotic and mysterious appearance.
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Post by Aryeh on Feb 14, 2018 13:23:41 GMT -5
However, the dark-skinned race with blue eyes is not Peter Jackson's artistic invention; instead, it is a quote, quoting John Milius' Conan the Barbarian (the unforgettable blue-eyed Thulsa Doom). Feels kinda funny saying this on a Conan forum (since one expects everyone saw and still remembers the Milius film), but since Jackson was credited with this in the post I quote, I had to mention the thing in question is but an homage -- to Conan the Barbarian. I've heard Milius say that Thulsa Doom was given blue eyes to represent that he was part of lost race in the dvd commentary too but I have no way to know if Jackson was doing an homage to Milius's version of Thulsa Doom. But the context of my statement was that I do think the islanders in 2005 Kong were designed to purposely not resemble any specific living people to avoid negative stereotypes, and I think it's a good idea because it doesn't interfere with the overall plot of the story. The reason I used Jackson's movie as an example because the situation in the plot is somewhat similar to Man-eaters of Zamboula whereas Milius's use was different, I don't think he wanted to avoid a stereotype I think he wanted Thulsa Doom to have an exotic and mysterious appearance. This is exactly what Milius said about Thulsa Doom -- that when we see Arnold Schwarzenegger against James Earl Jones in that film, it is not a case of having a white character vs. a black character (Roger Ebert in his review said he didn't like that, and Milius is responding to Ebert's criticism), but that instead Thulsa Doom belongs to some Atlantean or even pre-Atlantean race, which no longer exists. Hence the straight hair and blue eyes, and then black actor playing that character with all that make-up. My point being: Milius did it before Jackson, and in a film which is not some obscure movie no one ever heard of. So I would be prone to give the original credits to Milius, rather then to Jackson.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2018 13:36:16 GMT -5
Second: there is that well known scene from The Whole Wide World movie, which is based on Howard's biography, where Howard says Conan himself appears during the night, and then stands behind him with a large battle axe, forcing Howard to write Conan stories. The 1001 Nights frame-story represents a woman, Scheherazade, who is forced to tell stories to her ruler, because with each new story she tells, she is postponing her death sentence. So, this, "Know, O Prince..." has this baggage of drama behind it, as in: one tells stories so that one can avoid certain death; it is not the lullaby's: "Once upon a time..." I believe they're the words an over-excited John Milius, not REH. He was convinced that, you know, the town wanted to exterminate him, this kind of thing, and he’d go home and board up his windows and load rifles — complete nut! But the best part, is he’s alone one night, and he feels a shadow overtake him from behind, and he knows that Conan is standing behind him with a large axe. And Conan tells him, “Just stay there and write, and if you don’t do exactly what I’m gonna tell you, I’m gonna cleave you down the middle.” And so, he’s so terrified, because Conan just exudes such power and fear, and he could just see the axe glinting in his peripheral vision, you know, that he just writes all night! And of course with the coming of dawn, he turns around finally and Conan is gone. So he falls upon the floor completely spent, and he realises “I only have to sleep for a few hours, because then I must fortify myself – for when darkness comes again, so will Conan.” And of course, Conan did, and he would, almost all these stories, in a very short period of time because Conan was standing over him with an axe – and I’ve always felt that way myself! John Milius, from Conan the Barbarian Unchained. You can find the above quote around the 7 minute mark. I think John Milius probably read little snippets of REH's letters (like the one below) and decided to embellish/exaggerate REH's creative process to make it sound more appealing, but one thing's for sure he was wrong. I’m rather of the opinion myself that widespread myths and legends are based on some fact, though the fact may be distorted out of all recognition in the telling. While I don’t go so far as to believe that stories are inspired by actually existent spirits or powers (though I am rather opposed to flatly denying anything) I have sometimes wondered if it were possible that unrecognized forces of the past or present or even the future work through the thoughts and actions of living men. This occurred to me when I was writing the first stories of the Conan series especially. I know that for months I had been absolutely barren of ideas, completely unable to work up anything sellable. Then the man Conan seemed suddenly to grow up in my mind without much labor on my part and immediately a stream of stories flowed off my pen or rather, off my typewriter almost without effort on my part. I did not seem to be creating, but rather relating events that had occurred. Episode crowded on episode so fast that I could scarcely keep up with them. For weeks I did nothing but write of the adventures of Conan. The character took complete possession of my mind and crowded out everything else in the way of storywriting. When I deliberately tried to write something else, I couldn’t do it. I do not attempt to explain this by esoteric or occult means, but the facts remain. I still write of Conan more powerfully and with more understanding than any of my other characters. But the time will probably come when I will suddenly find myself unable to write convincingly of him at all. That has happened in the past with nearly all my rather numerous characters; suddenly I would find myself out of contact with the conception, as if the man himself had been standing at my shoulder directing my efforts, and had suddenly turned and gone away, leaving me to search for another character. (REH to Clark Ashton Smith, December 14th, 1933) There's some more info at this link: rehguide.wordpress.com/2010/12/22/robert-e-howard-and-the-ghost-of-conan/
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Post by Aryeh on Feb 14, 2018 15:09:09 GMT -5
If you read my post and hear what Milius is saying, you will notice it is not the speech of a psychiatrist trying to label someone by establishing a diagnose. In this sense, I don't think that answer on REH Guide Wordpress blog is appropriate, because what is at stake here is a somewhat poetic approach to a relationship between an artist and his or her creation. In a sense, an artist is always a hostage of his/her creation -- that is the point of the story (that Milius tells, and then also, the point of the 1001 Nights frame story, and to an extent it is also present in Howard's own letters).
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Post by zarono on Feb 14, 2018 15:41:48 GMT -5
I've heard Milius say that Thulsa Doom was given blue eyes to represent that he was part of lost race in the dvd commentary too but I have no way to know if Jackson was doing an homage to Milius's version of Thulsa Doom. But the context of my statement was that I do think the islanders in 2005 Kong were designed to purposely not resemble any specific living people to avoid negative stereotypes, and I think it's a good idea because it doesn't interfere with the overall plot of the story. The reason I used Jackson's movie as an example because the situation in the plot is somewhat similar to Man-eaters of Zamboula whereas Milius's use was different, I don't think he wanted to avoid a stereotype I think he wanted Thulsa Doom to have an exotic and mysterious appearance. This is exactly what Milius said about Thulsa Doom -- that when we see Arnold Schwarzenegger against James Earl Jones in that film, it is not a case of having a white character vs. a black character (Roger Ebert in his review said he didn't like that, and Milius is responding to Ebert's criticism), but that instead Thulsa Doom belongs to some Atlantean or even pre-Atlantean race, which no longer exists. Hence the straight hair and blue eyes, and then black actor playing that character with all that make-up. My point being: Milius did it before Jackson, and in a film which is not some obscure movie no one ever heard of. So I would be prone to give the original credits to Milius, rather then to Jackson. Thanks for straightening me out on all that, this addition to my original post should fix it for you: Absolutely the Conan vs Thak battle must happen! Man-Eaters of Zamboula should be done too as the battle with Baal-Pteor is iconic, the cannibals in the story could be changed to some mysterious lost race the way Peter Jackson did with the Skull Island natives in his version of King Kong, not offensive to anyone and keeps the basic plot intact. I think as long as the cannibals are designed to be visually interesting and frightening it would work well. BUT JOHN MILIUS WAS THE FIRST DIRECTOR OF A FANTASY FILM TO A HAVE A DARK SKINNED CHARACTER WITH BLUE EYES MEANT TO REPRESENT A LOST RACE, EVEN THOUGH I DON'T KNOW WHY THIS IS RELEVANT TO THE CONVERSATION BECAUSE THE THULSA DOOM CHARACTER IN CONAN 1982 WAS OBVIOUSLY NOT A STEREOTYPICAL CANNIBAL SAVAGE BUT INSTEAD A REFINED, HIGHLY EDUCATED SORCERER-PRIEST AND PRODUCT OF A HIGH CIVILIZATION.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2018 16:05:10 GMT -5
If you read my post and hear what Milius is saying, you will notice it is not the speech of a psychiatrist trying to label someone by establishing a diagnose. In this sense, I don't think that answer on REH Guide Wordpress blog is appropriate, because what is at stake here is a somewhat poetic approach to a relationship between an artist and his or her creation. In a sense, an artist is always a hostage of his/her creation -- that is the point of the story (that Milius tells, and then also, the point of the 1001 Nights frame story, and to an extent it is also present in Howard's own letters). Thank you for your response, Aryeh. I love that you have included the legendary Şehrazat in a post concerning the new Conan TV series. But, the problem is that John Milius got it wrong, and so did you by thinking it had something to do with The Whole Wide World. If we wanna look at the relationship between an artist and his/her creation, then we should look at the artist (in this case REH) and the yarns themselves, but not exclusively the yarns, we can also ascertain significant clues from his correspondence with others.
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