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Post by lordyam on Aug 22, 2017 14:16:43 GMT -5
Fair enough; I certainly buy most of my stuff digital and that doesn't show up. I think it is fair to assume that they got the shit kicked out of them when Star Wars left them. THAT was their biggest moneymaker.
However I'm not sure they can still afford to ditch the license yet.
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Post by johnnypt on Aug 22, 2017 15:42:54 GMT -5
The regular trade numbers have been terrible for years, the first omnibus had good pre-orders, the second not so much. However those are the kind of books meant to sit on shelves in regular book stores as well as comic stores. Maybe the decrease in the Marvel reprint numbers is why we haven't seen anything else on that front. It's still too early to see whether the omnis will be evergreen but the rest of the catalog doesn't seem to be around much.
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Post by Jason Aiken on Aug 22, 2017 18:42:34 GMT -5
I think a B&W comic could work given where Conan's popularity, or lack-there-of is. There's no point trying to get new/younger readers, they don't give a shit about Conan. Us 6,000-(maybe)10,000 fans are it.
You might as well treat the material with respect, and try to bring back Conan comics to the Savage Sword days when the comics were consistently high quality.
Or...back up the truck and pay Giorello and Truman to finish out the license adapting the remaining REH yarns, as their the two creators that are best suited to do it. Hell, they might be the GOAT as far as Conan creative teams go. Yes, they give BWS and Roy the Boy a run for their money.
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Post by lordyam on Aug 22, 2017 18:47:44 GMT -5
I talked to Tomas about it. That ship sailed last year; he was actually waiting and they wanted to keep him around but they hesitated. They might need another artist but if they keep Truman around I think he may be willing to do it.
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Post by Jason Aiken on Aug 22, 2017 18:57:31 GMT -5
Going forward, you'd want Truman or Busiek to write it, either way.
I still think going b&w is the way to go. Something so different it breaks the cycle of how badly DH has handled Conan since Truman and Giorello left the monthly book.
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Post by lordyam on Aug 22, 2017 19:00:00 GMT -5
Busiek I think is focusing on his own works. If Autumnlands ends he might go for it but otherwise no.
Or they can bring Van Lente back. He actually did do an above average job (he had a few brainfarts here and there but for the most part was good).
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Post by Jason Aiken on Aug 22, 2017 19:07:20 GMT -5
Busiek I think is focusing on his own works. If Autumnlands ends he might go for it but otherwise no. Or they can bring Van Lente back. He actually did do an above average job (he had a few brainfarts here and there but for the most part was good). Not Van Lente, he's a good writer and his writing wasn't the problem on Avenger, but he's still associated with that skinny turd. We have to focus on when the comic was a top tier book. And that means: Busiek, Nord, Truman, Giorello. If you want it in color, monthly... If you want to experiment have Busiek or Truman write it, and get some foreign artists who know how to throw down barbaric black ink.
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Post by mrp on Aug 22, 2017 19:36:41 GMT -5
Going forward, you'd want Truman or Busiek to write it, either way. I still think going b&w is the way to go. Something so different it breaks the cycle of how badly DH has handled Conan since Truman and Giorello left the monthly book. Or something so different retailers don't order it and it gets cancelled before the first issue is printed. If someone is going to do a b&w mag for 6K fans only it's going to have to be something done through crowdfunding sold directly to the fans, not through Diamond and not through retailers who won't order something they can't sell. Again I'll repeat myself, comics distributed to Diamond are NOT sold to end customers, they are sold to retailers. It has to be something retailers will buy into before they will order it to sell to end customers. Doesn't matter if there is 6K or 16K or 60K potential end customers, the 5000 or so Diamond account sand the retailers who own them are the ones who buy the books and determine the future of the books. Any product intended to be sold through Diamond that doesn't take that into account is doomed to failure before it launches. If it's a choice of ordering 1 $10 book that is not likely to sell or 2 $5 books that have a chance of selling and double the chance of making its money back for the shelf space, retailers are going to order the 2 $5 books. If it's a choice between a $10 first volume of an Image trade that has a company trying to grow its audience behind it or a $10 magazine that has zero growth potential, the retailer will order the trade not the magazine. The opportunity cost works against the $10 mag. Doesn't matter that Conan once sold well as a black and white mag in the past, Conan is not a good seller in 2017, black and white mags are not good sellers in 2017, so no retailer is going to spend their limited dollars and use up their limited shelf space to carry a mag of that type, and the way the distribution network is set up, if the retailers aren't going to order it, those 6K fans will never see it and Dark Horse won't publish it. The answers don't lie in trying to recreate success form past markets that no longer exist, it lies in understanding what the market is now and developing something that has a chance of succeeding in this market, whether it goes to new fans or those existing 6K fans, it has to sell to the retailers first and trying to do a format that doesn't work for them is absolutely the worst way to go about it. -M
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Post by lordyam on Aug 22, 2017 19:57:48 GMT -5
I agree. DC and Marvel have kind of fallen into the same trap, failing to recognize that the old market doesn't exist anymore
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Post by Jason Aiken on Aug 22, 2017 20:05:15 GMT -5
Going forward, you'd want Truman or Busiek to write it, either way. I still think going b&w is the way to go. Something so different it breaks the cycle of how badly DH has handled Conan since Truman and Giorello left the monthly book. Or something so different retailers don't order it and it gets cancelled before the first issue is printed. If someone is going to do a b&w mag for 6K fans only it's going to have to be something done through crowdfunding sold directly to the fans, not through Diamond and not through retailers who won't order something they can't sell. Again I'll repeat myself, comics distributed to Diamond are NOT sold to end customers, they are sold to retailers. It has to be something retailers will buy into before they will order it to sell to end customers. Doesn't matter if there is 6K or 16K or 60K potential end customers, the 5000 or so Diamond account sand the retailers who own them are the ones who buy the books and determine the future of the books. Any product intended to be sold through Diamond that doesn't take that into account is doomed to failure before it launches. If it's a choice of ordering 1 $10 book that is not likely to sell or 2 $5 books that have a chance of selling and double the chance of making its money back for the shelf space, retailers are going to order the 2 $5 books. If it's a choice between a $10 first volume of an Image trade that has a company trying to grow its audience behind it or a $10 magazine that has zero growth potential, the retailer will order the trade not the magazine. The opportunity cost works against the $10 mag. Doesn't matter that Conan once sold well as a black and white mag in the past, Conan is not a good seller in 2017, black and white mags are not good sellers in 2017, so no retailer is going to spend their limited dollars and use up their limited shelf space to carry a mag of that type, and the way the distribution network is set up, if the retailers aren't going to order it, those 6K fans will never see it and Dark Horse won't publish it. The answers don't lie in trying to recreate success form past markets that no longer exist, it lies in understanding what the market is now and developing something that has a chance of succeeding in this market, whether it goes to new fans or those existing 6K fans, it has to sell to the retailers first and trying to do a format that doesn't work for them is absolutely the worst way to go about it. -M I get your point and it's accurate, but you're talking like things are going to be the same going forward. It's only a matter of time until the direct market collapses and local comic shops begin shuttering their doors, so you might as well say fuck it and try something ballsy on the way out. Hell, maybe they'll get lucky and get Conan back onto newsstands with a magazine. I also like what Char-Vell said about manga, last time I checked that was all black and white and kids eat that shit up. A black & white Conan magazine on the newsstands in the right hands would probably sell more than a puny 6,000 comics via the direct market. If foreign artists were used it would almost certainly ensure more international sales as well. Something drastic has to be done to wash the shit out of everyone's mouths right now.
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Post by lordyam on Aug 22, 2017 20:13:45 GMT -5
I wouldn't be surprised if they go full digital.
Big chain stores like forbidden planet had no problem procuring individual conan issues but those guys are big. They can afford to take risks. The one I've started going to in San Diego has it but it takes longer for them to arrive.
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Post by mrp on Aug 22, 2017 20:26:36 GMT -5
Or something so different retailers don't order it and it gets cancelled before the first issue is printed. If someone is going to do a b&w mag for 6K fans only it's going to have to be something done through crowdfunding sold directly to the fans, not through Diamond and not through retailers who won't order something they can't sell. Again I'll repeat myself, comics distributed to Diamond are NOT sold to end customers, they are sold to retailers. It has to be something retailers will buy into before they will order it to sell to end customers. Doesn't matter if there is 6K or 16K or 60K potential end customers, the 5000 or so Diamond account sand the retailers who own them are the ones who buy the books and determine the future of the books. Any product intended to be sold through Diamond that doesn't take that into account is doomed to failure before it launches. If it's a choice of ordering 1 $10 book that is not likely to sell or 2 $5 books that have a chance of selling and double the chance of making its money back for the shelf space, retailers are going to order the 2 $5 books. If it's a choice between a $10 first volume of an Image trade that has a company trying to grow its audience behind it or a $10 magazine that has zero growth potential, the retailer will order the trade not the magazine. The opportunity cost works against the $10 mag. Doesn't matter that Conan once sold well as a black and white mag in the past, Conan is not a good seller in 2017, black and white mags are not good sellers in 2017, so no retailer is going to spend their limited dollars and use up their limited shelf space to carry a mag of that type, and the way the distribution network is set up, if the retailers aren't going to order it, those 6K fans will never see it and Dark Horse won't publish it. The answers don't lie in trying to recreate success form past markets that no longer exist, it lies in understanding what the market is now and developing something that has a chance of succeeding in this market, whether it goes to new fans or those existing 6K fans, it has to sell to the retailers first and trying to do a format that doesn't work for them is absolutely the worst way to go about it. -M I get your point and it's accurate, but you're talking like things are going to be the same going forward. It's only a matter of time until the direct market collapses and local comic shops begin shuttering their doors, so you might as well say fuck it and try something ballsy on the way out. Hell, maybe they'll get lucky and get Conan back onto newsstands with a magazine. I also like what Char-Vell said about manga, last time I checked that was all black and white and kids eat that shit up. A black & white Conan magazine on the newsstands in the right hands would probably sell more than a puny 6,000 comics via the direct market. If foreign artists were used it would almost certainly ensure more international sales as well. Something drastic has to be done to wash the shit out of everyone's mouths right now. Newsstand shelf space is harder to come by than comic store shelf space in the current market. There are more magazines than shelf space and even old favorites are being crowded off the shelves, so there is little to no opportunity for new mags to get shelf space, let alone comic mags or niche mags. Also with newsstands you have to print 2-3 times what you actually sell, because it's returnable, and you lose money on all unsold copies, so it is much harder to make any profit on a newsstand mag versus a direct market. You have to print 18K to realistically sell 6K, plus you have to have infrastructure in place to handle returns. Newstand mags and comics use to defray that cost by selling advertising, but advertising revenue for print comics right now is negligible and a whole lot less than it was in the 70s and 80s, not enough to defray the extra costs associated with returnability. And Conan doesn't have a demographic that will get advertisers on board at all, so who are you going to sell ads to. The options of people still spending money on print advertising are few and far between, and among those there aren't many who would think that the Conan customer base would have many potential new customers for them in it to make it worth their while to spend the money. So, newsstands are not the answer, they are also a dinosaur and again that's looking back, not forward. Ballsy is not looking to recapture past successes that are no longer relevant, it's trying something new that capitalizes on current market conditions, not ignores them blithely convinced if it worked 25 + years ago it should still work moving forward even though it hasn't worked in the past 25 years and the market has completely changed since then. Also if the direct market falls, it will take most comic publishers with them, so there will be no one to put out Conan comics if that happens. If Conan is a niche product, and it most likely is, it is not going to succeed in a mass market format moving forward. It will need to look at how niche products are succeeding in the current market. Crowdfunding, direct marketing to customers and not using middle men, to get ahead of the rising costs of economy of scale, especially in publishing. Direct subscription models for digitally delivered content where customers are purchasing access to material not physical products, etc. That's not something Dark Horse does, which may be why they are reconsidering the license if that is indeed the case with the hiatus. Manga has actually shrunk a bit over the last few years in the book trade, and those that aren't shrinking are plateauing, Manga was the answer 10 years ago, now that ship has sailed and it's too late to effectively hop on board and realistically expect to succeed. The only drastic measure that will wash out folks mouths is to let the property go fallow. Give it a little time and distance and people will forget the bad stuff and remember what they liked about it. Then you might be able to launch something in a different format that allows room for growth. -M
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Post by lordyam on Aug 22, 2017 20:29:24 GMT -5
They are selling comics on a digital app actually (I've bought quite a few issues that way.)
I think that a brief hiatus may be the way to go; even if it's only six months it could give time to cool down.
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Post by Char-Vell on Aug 23, 2017 6:34:21 GMT -5
Is there no way around Diamond? this is America damnit!
...which reminds we...In other parts of the world, Japan and Europe mainly, people still love print comics. here in the US, not so much.
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Post by mrp on Aug 23, 2017 9:45:48 GMT -5
Is there no way around Diamond? this is America damnit! ...which reminds we...In other parts of the world, Japan and Europe mainly, people still love print comics. here in the US, not so much. Diamond currently hols a de facto monopoly on comics distribution for print comics. They also serve as the gatekeepers as to what books and companies can get to the direct market, as anything too small is not worth their time and they won't carry it. The saddest part is that is seems many retailers and most publishers prefer it this way because it is less work they have to do. Publishers don't have to sell to multiple distributors or track sales from multiple sources or look t multiple sources to determine levels of pre-orders when setting print runs, and retailers don't have to spend time making multiple orders, tracking sales of books form various distributors to set up their ordering patterns etc. There have been a few attempts to set up alternate distribution companies since the great Heroes World disaster of the 90s, but none have taken root. There are a few distribution companies who focus on small print/indy books, but their reach is very small and most retailers don't bother with them or are even aware that they exist. Digital distribution is a challenge for them, but the primary reason same day digital pricing is the same as print is so that they don't ruffle the feathers of Diamond and the retailers (but mostly Diamond) because the publishers are dependent on Diamond for their ability to get to market. Digital sales will always be limited when they are priced the same as print, and sure you can wait a month or so to see if prices drop or for a sale, but our marketplace is focused on what is new and shiny (not just in comics-new phone, new device, new flavors, new movies, etc.) and the market for older goods (even a couple of months old) is limited and the bulk of sales for comics is the first week of release and maybe a week or two after that, as any later than that and there has been a constant flow of new product to distract customers and take their dollars, so the window of opportunity to sell your book in any numbers is very small. So no, there is no escaping Diamond at this point unless you are withdrawing formt he direct market and engaging in crowdfunding and/or marketing directly to customers via mail order sales not in shop sales. Publishers sell to Diamond, Diamond sells to retailers. This is what decides a books success or failure. End customers i.e. fans don't figure into it. Retailers have to find a way to sell to those end customers but those sales don't affect the bottom line of Diamond or the publishers, they already have their money form selling the books whether or not end customers buy them. When retailers can't sell their books, they drop orders and spend money on different books that will sell, which Diamond and the publishers can happily provide as they put out so many, and the books that don't sell get dropped/cancelled. It's easier to offer a different product than fix one that isn't selling. -M
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