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Post by johnnypt on Aug 21, 2017 20:56:35 GMT -5
We should have Conan on the stands in some form through the end of the year thanks to the Wonder Woman mini. But after that....it's a shame they've gotten this far to not finish but truth be told, it does echo the Marvel situation at this point. If it comes back, it may need to take another form out of sheer necessity.
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Post by Jason Aiken on Aug 21, 2017 21:33:07 GMT -5
Maybe it's time to say, "Fuck color, let's bring back a black and white magazine."
Bring back Kurt Busiek or Tim Truman to write the damn thing, and go out and get some kick ass foreign artists for a change of pace.
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Post by mrp on Aug 21, 2017 21:50:43 GMT -5
Maybe it's time to say, "Fuck color, let's bring back a black and white magazine." Bring back Kurt Busiek or Tim Truman to write the damn thing, and go out and get some kick ass foreign artists for a change of pace. Magazine size format comics sell worst than regular comic sized books in today's market. They take up more space so shops never order shelf copies and rarely display them with comics, relegating them to some hidden. secondary rack customers never see in most cases. I love the format. I'd say yes if it were based on my personal preference, but it's circulation suicide to try that format in the current market, and there's not really a newsstand market for magazines to sell to outside of comic shops. New magazines have trouble getting picked up for circulation and even some old favorites are not being carried by places that sell magazines because they don't allot the space for many magazines on the shelves. The way the market is currently structured in the 21st century, publishers can't look to 20th century methods for answers, they're dinosaurs in the current print market and won't work with today's customers. They need to look forward, not back. Niche products only sell to niche customers and the economics of scale in publishing don't allow for such products to be affordable to customers so it creates a barrier to new buyers. If folks won't shell out $4 for Conan comic, they're not likely to shell out $8-$10 (which is where a mag of that type would have to be priced for the publisher to even break even selling under 10K copies) for a Conan magazine. Heavy Metal survives but offers subscription rates at half cover for multiple year subscriptions. I only now of 1 shop iinthe 10-12 in my area that has shelf copies of it available, and that is with a big name like Grant Morrison being the EIC and having material in every issue. Image tried a magazine, I was interested and wanted to check an issue out, but every shop I went to said we didn't order shelf copies, only enough to cover pre-orders because we don't want magazine size issues taking up shelf space other better sellers could have. So while I would love to see a Conan mag, not comic, I highly doubt the format would perform well enough to last a half dozen issues in the current market and doubt even more someone like Dark Horse would even consider the format. -M
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Post by lordyam on Aug 21, 2017 23:12:37 GMT -5
Sadly will anyone care by then ! Terry The problem is, outside of die hard Conan fans I don't think anyone does right now, and there's not enough of those die hards buying the Dark Horse books to really make it viable let alone profitable for DH. Even attempts to bring in name comic writers who have a bit of a following in the marketplace to try to expand the interest in the book to comics fans who aren't necessarily Conan fans per se have fallen flat and only alienated the hardcore Conan base. Not even cross-overs with other characters have garnered any additional interest in the books featuring Conan to provide any growth. There's too many other books on the market crowding shelves and preventing niche interest books like Conan from finding an audience outside of those already inclined to buy it. It might be best to let it lay fallow for a while until they have a project featuring Conan that might be able find some traction in the marketplace or until there is a market out there that allows for smaller books to find an audience and grow interest in the character. At least to allow the die hard base to miss the book and be willing to buy the book whenever they do bring it back because there hasn't been new Conan for a while. This kind of feels like the 90s when Marvel was hanging on to the license but had given up on the monthly Conan book, Savage Sword, and tried other versions (Conan the Savage, Conan the Adventurer, Conan and a host of Conan mini series) and nothing really caught on with fans but they kept trying to hang on to the license. It wasn't until they stopped let the character lay fallow for a few years that Dark Horse was able to reignite interest when they launched the Busiek/Nord series. I think the best thing for Conan comics long term might be to take a break in the short term. Not a few months, but a year or so and see what happens. -M I'm not sure they can afford that. It's still their sixth highest earner each month and they've been bleeding money ever since marvel retook star wars. They need all the licenses they can get We also don't know the details of the license fully. If they HAVE to end it I'd like them to at least wrap up the Prince and Wazir storyline or whatever happened with Conan and Thoth
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Post by lordyam on Aug 21, 2017 23:43:36 GMT -5
When I was digging through the older numbers even Dark Horse's current breadwinners (Buffy, Aliens) are pale shadows of what they once were (Buffy started being published around the same time Nord left the series; it was 80,000 when it first came NOW it covers around 10,000). American Gods was the highest scoring comic this month, and from what I've read they've got it for 27 issues. THAT's mostly because it's currently a tv show on starz
Otherwise they're lucky they breach 12,000.
And as for the howard tales left.....
With Devil Done we have only a few left
Black and Red Black One Vale of Lost Women Tombalku Shadows of Zamboula
I'm pretty sure Roy Thomas's series is still on the docket and if I HAD to guess I'd assume it's tombalku.
Part of me wishes DH had offered Tomas the black and red stories while he was still there (I corresponded with him. He told me he waited a few months before resigning, and even said he wouldn't have if they had offered him work.) He and Truman could have done that this year alongside slayer.
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Post by johnnypt on Aug 22, 2017 6:46:18 GMT -5
Considering Tom Grindberg was supposed to be doing the mini with Thomas and he's heard nothing from DH regarding anything (Conan, Tarzan), I'd forget about that until we hear anything from the creators to the contrary. With their low sales level in general, I think the days of a regular Conan series and a mini coming out at the same time are likely over. And mrp is 100% spot on, if a comic is a tough sell these days, a B&W magazine is absolutely out of the question. They tried something a little different with Savage Sword and couldn't quite pull it off.
Part of the drop is the overall industry where you have a few titles that crack 100k, some months only one or two (last month had 4). I don't read Buffy, I don't know if its drop is a result of industry trends, creative decisions like Conan or both. So they're in a tough position: they probably really do need a consistent seller like Conan as part of their offerings, but they've poisoned the well with the readers that they can't get a number of them back no matter what. At some point it doesn't pay to put out a book and apparently they've reach that point where a pause at the very least is in order.
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Post by emerald on Aug 22, 2017 7:52:03 GMT -5
I hate the idea of the Dark Horse Conan comic shutting down. I’d rather it kept trying for a couple reasons. First off, Conan and REH seem to be at a kind of a low point lately, and losing the comic would be a kick when we’re down. Second, I remember what happened after Marvel killed the long running Conan the Barbarian comic. If we lose Dark Horse’s comic now there is no telling what kind of comic we could end up with when, and if, it finally makes a comeback. Whatever issues the Dark Horse comic has it is built on a foundation of respect for REH and takes adapting the author’s works seriously. If the comic is dropped for year (or for ten years) what we finally get might not have those interests in mind. With the kind of re-boots the comic world has seen lately, who knows what might be done with Conan? Man, with fantasy, even Dark Fantasy, so huge on today’s cultural landscape, how can it be that Conan is fading from view?
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Post by Char-Vell on Aug 22, 2017 7:52:30 GMT -5
Maybe it's time to say, "Fuck color, let's bring back a black and white magazine." Bring back Kurt Busiek or Tim Truman to write the damn thing, and go out and get some kick ass foreign artists for a change of pace. I approve this message!
I doubt it would fly in the current climate, but they should try.
Make it cheap and chock full of content, like one of those big Japanese manga books.
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Post by Char-Vell on Aug 22, 2017 8:05:36 GMT -5
With the kind of re-boots the comic world has seen lately, who knows what might be done with Conan? Conan in space! Conan at Hogwart's Conan -vs- Transformers Conan -vs- Predator (maybe they should actually do this one)
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Post by johnnypt on Aug 22, 2017 9:08:37 GMT -5
I hate the idea of the Dark Horse Conan comic shutting down. I’d rather it kept trying for a couple reasons. First off, Conan and REH seem to be at a kind of a low point lately, and losing the comic would be a kick when we’re down. Second, I remember what happened after Marvel killed the long running Conan the Barbarian comic. If we lose Dark Horse’s comic now there is no telling what kind of comic we could end up with when, and if, it finally makes a comeback. Whatever issues the Dark Horse comic has it is built on a foundation of respect for REH and takes adapting the author’s works seriously. If the comic is dropped for year (or for ten years) what we finally get might not have those interests in mind. With the kind of re-boots the comic world has seen lately, who knows what might be done with Conan? Man, with fantasy, even Dark Fantasy, so huge on today’s cultural landscape, how can it be that Conan is fading from view? I think DH got into the trouble when they decided being respectful of REH wasn't part of their mission any more, for at least one series anyway. We got lip service that it was, but the product proved otherwise. Van Lente and Bunn have certainly veered back towards where the series began, but it looks like it wasn't enough. And who knows how much higher the sales would be if it had remained on their original path. We'd like to think at least a little higher, but at this point who knows.
It also seems that the "originals" for lack of a better word don't have much pull these days. The recent Conan, John Carter and Lone Ranger films were of varying quality and different levels of studio hype, but none seemed to generate much general public interest (Tarzan did a little). The newer generation of the same type of material does garner more attention and I'm not sure exactly why. Maybe it's just the older stuff has been picked clean (I think this is definitely the case with John Carter. I'd have loved for someone to do the Lensmen, but is there really a need at this point?). You would think there's a way to present the material in a way to interest modern audiences, the trick is finding it.
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Post by lordyam on Aug 22, 2017 13:07:01 GMT -5
Van Lente had the issue where Art was kinda crappy. I think otherwise more people would have stayed on.
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Post by mrp on Aug 22, 2017 13:41:49 GMT -5
The thing to remember about today's comic market, you are not selling to end customers, you are selling to retailers. They order the books and their orders determine print runs for customers. If retailers don't order it, end customers cannot buy it. And right now, the Conan books are not books that are attractive to retailers. They don't have growth potential. They are not going to bring customers into the shop looking for them and then lead them to buy other books too. They are not going to sell much if they give them shelf space, and there are other books that will sell impulse copies if given shelf space so those are more attractive to the retailer to order. The Conan books don't have extended shelf life, picking up readers as the series progresses and hits trades to make copies sellable down the road.
Until something happens with the Conan franchise as a whole to make it more attractive to a newer larger fan base, or Dark Horse (or another publisher) does something to make the books more attractive to retailers to carry, Conan books are not going to sell well and will be stuck with selling only what copies are preordered for pull customers in most shops. And if those pull customers drop the book and stick retailers with issues they have already ordered for them (remember retailers order 3 months in advance so if you drop a book they have 3 in the pipeline ordered for you already that they are unlikely to sell since you dropped the book) it makes the book even more unappealing to them.
The quality of the content and creators won't make a dent in sales numbers, there are a lot of quality books out there that don't sell worth a damn, and a lot of crap books that sell like wildfire. It's not a case of "if you build it, they will come" in terms of producing better Conan stories and customers will come back. Even if they come back, there's not copies to sell to them if retailers didn't order them and publishers didn't print them. For Conan to grow and thrive in the market, something has to happen to make it appeal to the people whose decisions affect the success of the book, and that's not the fans, it's the retailers. Until that happens, Conan sales are going to be what they are and on a downward trajectory.
-M
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Post by johnnypt on Aug 22, 2017 13:45:44 GMT -5
I'm just looking at Brian's art on Skaar, it's terrific stuff. Not sure why that style didn't translate over to Conan.
That's the conundrum of the direct market: retailer orders books, readers don't buy, books sit on shelf, retailer doesn't order more next time, readers don't see it on shelf, book goes away (I'm guessing whatever the digital numbers are, however "large" or small they were, they didn't help towards keeping the book going in its current form).
We had a relatively known name at least in the current market in Cullen Bunn and it didn't really do anything one way or the other. As far as what to do to change that, I guess that's what the DH people will be trying to figure out during this likely hiatus.
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Post by lordyam on Aug 22, 2017 13:48:45 GMT -5
That always bugged me too. His art on KOTOR was top notch; he can do muscular when he wants. Maybe they were under a mandate to do things a certain way.
But one thing that's sad is that Conan is STILL one of DH's top sellers (certainly in the top 25th percentile).
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Post by mrp on Aug 22, 2017 14:04:17 GMT -5
That always bugged me too. His art on KOTOR was top notch; he can do muscular when he wants. Maybe they were under a mandate to do things a certain way. But one thing that's sad is that Conan is STILL one of DH's top sellers (certainly in the top 25th percentile). The bulk of Dark horse's revenue (not unit sales but revenue) is in the trade market, especially the Library Editions of the Hellboy and Goon books, the evergreen nature of all the Mignola books in trade formats and hardcovers, and several other series that have evergreen trades. This revenue stream is coming from the book trade, outside Diamaond distribution, so it doesn't show up on the monthly top 100 or whatever charts that you get form Diamond. They also do a healthy bit of digital sales (also not reflected on the Diamond charts), so while the Conan comics may show up well on the Diamond charts of sales of their monthly units, that's not where their money makers are when you look at their revenue stream as a whole. Those giant hardcover Conan collections they are putting out (the first volume was Busiek, and now a second one has been solicited) probably generate more revenue over the course of a year than all the issues of the print series do, as the cost of paying creators for that stuff has already been paid and royalty/residuals are negligible compared to page rate costs on the monthly books. If the regular Conan trade did better in the book market and became evergreen sellers, it would allow DH to keep putting out the monthly books at lower circulation rates because it would generate revenue on the back end, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Looking at the monthly sales charts from Diamond is only a snapshot of a small portion of the Dark Horse revenue stream, and you cannot judge the importance of the Conan license to their revenue stream based on that alone. It doesn't matter where the monthly comic ranks in Diamond sales compared to other books sold through Diamond, it matters how the license performs as a whole in relationship with their entire revenue stream. That will determine the future of Conan at Dark Horse, not monthly Diamond rankings. -M
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