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Post by deepermagic on Feb 6, 2019 12:25:05 GMT -5
I happily stumbled among this today: en.wikisource.org/wiki/Author:Robert_Ervin_HowardIt contains a large number of Howard's works, available to read online for free. The interesting part related to this thread is that the bulk of them are claimed to be in the public domain already, based on a list created by Paul Herman, last updated in 2007. If the work is considered to be in the public domain, such as 'The Hyborian Age', there is at the bottom of the page a copyright notice that says (among other things) this: This is the claim Paul Herman has made and the wiki page links to his research. Two things I'm curious about: 1) If these works really are in the public domain, why hasn't anyone made any real effort to capitalize on it? My assumption is that due to the confusing nature of copyright law, no one wants to wade into murky water...but surely, if these works really are in the PD, a competent lawyer could find out, no? Herman's already done a ton of groundwork. But perhaps people are fearful of lawsuits and those who have some sort of urge to capitalize on these works don't have the resources to risk a lawsuit? I mean, why wouldn't some sort of entertainment group (be it books, comics, film, tv, etc) take advantage of this? 2) If these works really are not in the public domain--meaning this wiki group is violating the law--why have the license holders (Cabinet) not gone after them and taken it down? One of the reasons I bring this up is because there seems to be a strong desire among fans of Howard for creators to not only keep giving us Howard characters in different forms of media, but characters that are truly Howardian. Seems to me that the answer has been with us in the public domain for a while now (if it's truly in the PD). Instead of moaning about what Marvel might do, or getting hopes up about the possible TV/Film versions (that is mostly a bunch of hot air), why don't folks just begin creating now? Fear of the murky copyright laws (and possible threats, known or unknown, from the license holder) must be the only thing holding anyone back on this. The silver lining is that regardless of whether someone says a work is in the public domain or not right now, we can be sure that many of Howard's works will assuredly enter the public domain in less than a decade. No doubt about it. But part of me hopes some studio or publisher or group or enthusiastic fan even will attempt to create something using one of the 'thought to be' public domain works and allow us all to see if the license holder will bite. |
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Post by terryallenuk on Feb 6, 2019 15:18:59 GMT -5
I doubt anyone really wants to risk putting money up and give it a shot. After all comics have/are being produced by Marvel and Dark Horse. The books are in print officially by Del Rey and if you look at Amazon there's already lots of unofficial versions around. The last film crashed , and the TV series died before birth. I doubt there's much money to be made apart from gaming and there seems to be plenty of those too.
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Post by bobbyderie on Feb 6, 2019 17:50:09 GMT -5
1) If these works really are in the public domain, why hasn't anyone made any real effort to capitalize on it? My assumption is that due to the confusing nature of copyright law, no one wants to wade into murky water...but surely, if these works really are in the PD, a competent lawyer could find out, no? Herman's already done a ton of groundwork. But perhaps people are fearful of lawsuits and those who have some sort of urge to capitalize on these works don't have the resources to risk a lawsuit? I mean, why wouldn't some sort of entertainment group (be it books, comics, film, tv, etc) take advantage of this? A lot of bottom-feeders have, with a shitload of cheap ebook and print-on-demand editions. Anything more ambitious would require a full copyright search and potentially dealing with trademarks - I made sure to check with the REH Properties guys for permission before publishing The Robert E. Howard Sampler just in case. Without speaking for them, they seem to be way less prone to file random lawsuits than you'd think. There are a couple times they've done it - there was the kerfuffle about the action figures last year - but they seem more focused on building the brand than issuing cease-and-desists to people putting up audiobooks for free on YouTube. |
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Post by deepermagic on Feb 8, 2019 11:44:31 GMT -5
Thanks for the feedback!
I don't know why I find all of this so fascinating, but I do. I really do think that within maybe 15 years or so, and then increasing, we're going to really start to see Howard's works begin to take off in ways we can't really predict.
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Post by themirrorthief on Feb 9, 2019 9:34:12 GMT -5
the reading public today only wants sex...and childrens stuff like Harry Potter, Twilight, Fifty Shades of Grey, etc. They are like pigs, addicted to garbage
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Post by themirrorthief on Feb 9, 2019 9:34:35 GMT -5
but let me add, I am very non judgemental about it
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Post by deepermagic on Jun 13, 2019 13:54:02 GMT -5
I don't know why I'm so interested in the issue of property rights. Maybe because of my frustration with groups like Cabinet... This recent thread got me thinking about an interesting twist on owning intellectual property that's not quite public domain. Like what would it look like if certain entertainment properties, like REH's characters, could be publicly owned? I'm not talking public domain, but for properties not yet in the PD, if the public (more specifically the fans) could own them on a shareholder basis like the fans own the Green Bay Packers. Fans buy the stock, which would be similar to a non-profit where individuals wouldn't actually get any financial paybacks, but rather ensure voting power to elect a board (or whatever is deemed best) to handle the intricate affairs of granting licenses, creating content, etc, of the property. I think that would go a long way in allowing the fans to actually have a say, and without the financial incentive, you know the people purchasing are doing it out of their love for the IP, just like fans do for their football team in America or Europe. I'm not a business minded person at all, so there are perhaps some roadblocks I'm not at all seeing, but from a fan perspective, fan ownership which comes with some degree of getting an actual say in what to do with said property, is highly intriguing. It goes against almost everything these days though, since everyone is out to get the almighty dollar, so I know it's a pipe dream. For it to happen, it'd have to be probably something set up by the original owner of the property establishing it from the get go or after their death. |
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Post by korak on Jul 6, 2019 10:51:04 GMT -5
"using these tales and characters freely?" No, you can't. As you state, once a story hits public domain anyone can reprint it. But they can only reprint that story. The trademarked character of CONAN (or TARZAN) means that not only can you not use that in the title (or any part of your marketing (probably?)) -- it also means you CANNOT create new adventures or pastiches without the rights/permission. By "freely" I meant monetarily, as in, you don't need to pay for a costly license, and in the way used in the above quote, to copy and distribute, etc, freely, without restraint. but in the case of Tarzan it relatives of R.E.H. could renew the copyright couldn't they? |
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Post by Jason Aiken on Jul 6, 2019 21:07:37 GMT -5
This is a very tricky topic. The Sherlock Holmes decision really opened the door but did establish some ground rules.
I believe Justice Scalia opined that a trademark does not extend copyright...
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Post by deepermagic on Jul 8, 2019 11:13:50 GMT -5
By "freely" I meant monetarily, as in, you don't need to pay for a costly license, and in the way used in the above quote, to copy and distribute, etc, freely, without restraint. but in the case of Tarzan it relatives of R.E.H. could renew the copyright couldn't they? I don't know if you slipped and meant Conan instead of Tarzan (Tarzan was written by Edgar Rice Burroughs), but there is a fixed maximum time for a copyright to expire. You are right that relatives or estates/license holders can apply to renew, but at some point a copyright reaches its end and becomes public domain. Technically most of Howard's stories are already in the public domain because no one renewed the copyright. However, because copyright law is so tangled and corporations and lawyers are involved, not many have the nerve to test the waters. Also Trademark has something to do with it. And Tarzan actually has an interesting link to that as well. Even though Tarzan is in the PD (and a new Tarzan tale just entered the PD this year) the Edgar Rice Burroughs folks still own the Tarzan trademark, and just a few years ago they sued a company that tried to make a Tarzan comic without a license...they even titled it without using the name 'Tarzan', and it looked like it would have been a perfect test case to see if Trademark law could trump copyright law, but the two parties ended up settling. The comic group getting a license and the ERB group getting a cut. Nothing was decided in court. |
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Post by deepermagic on Jul 8, 2019 11:38:23 GMT -5
This is a very tricky topic. The Sherlock Holmes decision really opened the door but did establish some ground rules. I believe Justice Scalia opined that a trademark does not extend copyright... I discussed the Sherlock Holmes decision earlier in the thread. You're right that a trademark does not extend copyright, and the concern in the Sherlock Holmes issue was just that; Can a license holder use the Trademark law to enforce what is essentially a copyright law, once the IP becomes public domain. I don't recall if the Sherlock Holmes case went to the Supreme Court, but the decision essentially came down against using a trademark to enforce copyright law on IP in the public domain. In that case, an anthology of newly written Sherlock Holmes stories was the subject of the case. The court decided that the book could be published so long as all the depictions of Holmes were truly in the public domain. That is, because some stories weren't yet public domain, if a copyrighted story revealed something not revealed in the PD stories about Sherlock Holmes, then they could not legally use/re-produce it. This leads me to believe that the Tarzan case I mentioned above, would have gone in the comic book group's favor. I think their love of Tarzan and the opportunity to get the official blessing of the ERB folks (and maybe expenses played into it) outweighed their desire to challenge the trademark/copyright issue. I think ERB folks know their time is running out and used the Trademark as a club to try to get their way. Now that the public domain wheels are starting to spin again, I can only assume we'll eventually have a court decision that'll give us something solid regarding using the Trademark to enforce copyright (although, to me, the Sherlock Holmes ruling does seem pretty solid, simple, and clear). Some big name IP will hit the PD in the next couple of years. The Wizard of Oz next year, and in 2021 more Tarzan, John Carter, Orwell's 1984, and Animal Farm. And in 2022 the rest of the Sherlock Holmes stories. If anything hits the courts over Trademarks it'll likely happen before the bulk of Howard's works are public domain. This is why I'm encouraged about the future of Howard's work/characters. Even if there is confusion about the copyright at this point in time, there will zero confusion about it, for Conan at least, in less than a decade. Sooner for Solomon Kane. |
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Post by keith on Aug 9, 2019 8:29:50 GMT -5
I am now worried. I should've researched this a lot more thoroughly, that's clear. I've written a novel called DAMNED FROM BIRTH that is inspired by REH's short story "The Thing on the Roof" and clearly is intended to have the same first-person narrator. In Howard's story he doesn't even have a name, and I've given him one, as well as a Boston family background, a history, and a fiancée. Quite a few real historical characters appear in the novel, like Tom Anderson, boss of the New Orleans Fourth Ward. No REH characters except the narrator are featured, but H.P. Lovecraft's sinister artist Pickman, from "Pickman's Model," is, and he helps the narrator/protagonist out with some advice on how to deal with ghouls.
I was certain that since HPL has been dead for over eighty years, and Robert E. Howard too, and since "The Thing on the Roof" was a one-off short story published in 1932 in WEIRD TALES, and "Pickman's Model" was published even earlier, I'd have no problems with copyright or license, but now it looks as though I was too sanguine about that.
Can anybody help me clarify this?
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Post by deepermagic on Aug 9, 2019 11:06:07 GMT -5
I am now worried. I should've researched this a lot more thoroughly, that's clear. I've written a novel called DAMNED FROM BIRTH that is inspired by REH's short story "The Thing on the Roof" and clearly is intended to have the same first-person narrator. In Howard's story he doesn't even have a name, and I've given him one, as well as a Boston family background, a history, and a fiancée. Quite a few real historical characters appear in the novel, like Tom Anderson, boss of the New Orleans Fourth Ward. No REH characters except the narrator are featured, but H.P. Lovecraft's sinister artist Pickman, from "Pickman's Model," is, and he helps the narrator/protagonist out with some advice on how to deal with ghouls. I was certain that since HPL has been dead for over eighty years, and Robert E. Howard too, and since "The Thing on the Roof" was a one-off short story published in 1932 in WEIRD TALES, and "Pickman's Model" was published even earlier, I'd have no problems with copyright or license, but now it looks as though I was too sanguine about that. Can anybody help me clarify this? I'm not seeing anything about "The Thing on the Roof" in any of the lists that have gathered info on public domain stuff, but it could have been an oversight. More or less the idea is this: Technically, because most of Howard's tales were published and the copyright was renewed before 1964, they should be considered Public Domain. But because of how copyright laws are (tangled and shady) and because people still make money on Howard's IP, there is some doubt as to how everything works out. But we will know beyond a shadow of a doubt in the upcoming years which Howard tales will absolutely be Public Domain, without dispute. So even though I and some others believe it's all in the PD right now, that might involve some legal stuff IF the work gains the attention of the folks that might hold Howard's IP, etc. I don't think you'd have to worry too much about copyright issues. Trademark issues are another story. But regardless of all of that, if it was published in 1932, we'll know for sure it'll be public domain in 2028. I don't know about the status of Lovecraft's work so I can't help you there. |
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jakmon
Wanderer
writer with a day job
Posts: 14
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Post by jakmon on Aug 14, 2019 7:42:21 GMT -5
Aren't REH's tales already in the public domain?
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Post by deepermagic on Aug 14, 2019 11:56:16 GMT -5
Aren't REH's tales already in the public domain? Technically, but I believe there's been some dispute in the past regarding which ones, etc. And when you get corporations and estates that protect trademark IP, etc, it becomes a tangled mess. This is why it's so important that, in the upcoming years, the stories for characters like Conan and Solomon Kane will definitively become public domain. It essentially clears out all of the weeds and gives us extreme clarity. There will still be trademarks on Conan, etc, I'm sure, but the teeth those license holders have will have less bite. Once the whole of a character's story becomes definitively public domain, then it will be extremely hard to fight a legal battle against anyone using that PD material in whatever way they want. There is precedent for this. The license holder for Sherlock Holmes tried to use Trademark law to essentially enforce that which was no longer covered by copyright law (because much of Sherlock Holmes had already entered public domain), and the ruling actually made a lot of sense. The newly written stories about Sherlock Holmes were perfectly legal, so long as they did not describe the character in a way that was not yet in the public domain and still under copyright law (not all the works had been released into the public domain yet). That is an extraordinary (and I think correct) ruling that goes a long way in taking the bite out of corporations and estates litigating the hell out of everyone who comes close to infringing on their Trademark. It's got to be a clear violation, usually an attempt to deceive the consumer into thinking it's an official product of the IP holder when it isn't, in order for a holder of a Trademarked IP to sue. Where we're at with Howard and his many IP characters now is that grey, weedy jungle. That will all soon dissipate and it'll be fantastic. |
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